An FYI on illegals "not" paying taxes...

Originally posted by nunya13
Immigration is a victimless crime.

First of all, "undocumented" arrival is not immigration, it's a trespass in the very least, and essentially an invasion, given the scale of it. Don't try to brush off a dozen million foreigners who violated the sovereignty of the US as something to chuckle about.

But regardless of that, you still set the new world record of naiviete. Try sell this "victimless" nonsense to folks living in areas where services were decimated due to influx of illegals.

Originally posted by lpowell0627


Repeat after me: I will not further support and /or assist (financially or otherwise) those that have broken laws at the expense of others to simply help themselves to what they feel they are entitled to.....

Needing to provide for a family is not an entitlement. It is a necessity.

Is it right to throw a homeless man in jail for stealing food he disparately needs to survive.

I somehow assume you would say yes.

reply to post by nunya13


My apologies.

I think this sums up what I think about the illegal immigrant issue.

Currently in the United States , “illegal immigrants” function as scapegoats. They are blamed for the self-inflicted wounds of our welfare state. For example, communities located in the West and Southwest find that government-run schools, welfare programs, and healthcare institutions (subject to government mandates to provide care to everyone) are bursting at the seams. Immigrants are being blamed for the problem. While it is not surprising that these institutions are plagued by overuse, poor quality, and skyrocketing expenditures, it is not the immigrants who are the source of the problem.

www.strike-the-root.com...

This article is worth reading for all. really puts things into perspective if your really honest with yourself.

IMO, illegals are just a distraction politician use to divert attention from the real issues. Why do you think they never fully address the issue about illegal immigration. It works to their advantage not to.

reply to post by buddhasystem


I misspoke and forgot the word "illegal". Sorry.

This is a big point of my thread. People want to blame just about everything on illegals by using generalization like "none of them pay taxes so they are getting services they don't pay for like the rest of us".

Do you honestly think they would rather be illegal than legal? Don't you think their dishonesty is stems from necessity to provide for their family and raise their kids in a safe environment, not selfishness?

edit to add: An invasion? Violation of sovereignty? So you would be perfectly happy if all of them, these "invaders", came in legally? You suddenly wouldn't see it as an "invasion" or "violation of sovereignty?

Also, refer to Jam's post above me to see how your claims that they decimate services is inaccurate.


[edit on 16-9-2009 by nunya13]

Originally posted by nunya13
Do you honestly think they would rather be illegal than legal?

Look, why should I even care what they want or don't want? There are many things that I personally want, but that doesn't seem to concern too many people on this planet. Illegals don't belong in the States, period, end of story.

Originally posted by Merigold

something else to consider for the whats its worth category, the road to legalization is FAR from simple and extremely expensive

From experience I know this to be true. And that, I'm afraid, is the point. The legal way is prohibitivley expensive because they don't want poor Mexicans or downtrodden Guatamalens, they want rich Canadians and established Irish.


The whole debate isn't about immigration per say. It is about the the type of immigrant you want. The type who can afford to hire a lawyer and pay out thousands in fees.

I was an illegal immigrant for 25 years. I paid taxes from the the first job ( Burger King, a national chain) to the last job( a major logistics provider ). Welfare? hell no, illegal immigrants live in FEAR of being caught and deported the last thing we need is to be on the radar by receiving any types of social benefits.

Additionlly I paid SALESTAX. You know, when I bought stuff. Because despite my illegal status I still needed a new sofa or wanted a new outfit ocassionally. And guess what they all happily took the money I earned illegally.

After 25 years the situation became such that I was on the the radar ( After 9/11 ) due to circumstances out my control. 25K and 18 months the lawyer told me would probably get my status upgraded. In the meantime I couldn't continue working of course, and my employer would probably get into big trouble after having employed me for over 10 years without ever really checking carefully my info. In the end I decided it wasn't worth it for me. Today I pay my taxes to another state and they happily accept my hard earned funds, and I'm not even a citizen of that country!

In the meantime my anchorbaby brothers have grown up to be productive tax payers, members of the armed forces and proud Americans. Damn proud of them I am, but were it up to some of you they would have been deported.

In anycase, I can also attest to the fact that illegals pay taxes, income tax, sales tax, car tax, property tax, you name it we've paid it, because despite right wing media's best attemtps to demonize us the vast majority of us are not crazed rapists and killers on welfare.

Sorry, Mods for the long quote but I want to make sure that everyone reads this, again if they have to. I understand if you remove it.

America provided the means for Merigold to lead a life that would never have been possible in Mexico. I'd be willing to bet my car that if was even remotely possible, merigold would have been more than willing to become a legal citizen, otherwise, why bother paying taxes, etc?

Originally posted by nunya13
America provided the means for Merigold to lead a life that would never have been possible in Mexico.

Duh.

America is not (or rather should not be) in the business of helping merigolds of this world before it helps its own citizens, dammit.

reply to post by buddhasystem


Hey, man. You can have your opinion. I'm just still trying to understand your justification for said opinion. So far, I haven't really heard anything from most people here that can be backed up with logic/data that shows you guys are right about the STATUS of these people living in America as productive members of society.

For every illegal that you can use as an shining example of the problem with illegal immigration we can show you an equal if not increased amount of legal Americans causing the same types of problems.

From Jam's article:

On one hand, most U.S.-born parents refuse to pay the total cost of schooling the children they produce. Instead, they hire the government to take these funds from their neighbors in the form of school taxes. How is this behavior different from that of the immigrants these same parents despise?

In a similar act of legalized theft, public-assistance programs force one group of citizens to feed, clothe, and house other citizens. Does it matter if the recipients were born here or not?

At hospitals throughout the country, doctors and nurses are forced to serve people who do not pay. Consequently, facilities are often overcrowded, and the financial burden is shifted to taxpayers and paying customers. Does it matter if those who do not pay are citizens or not?

Non-paying “customers” simply do not pay, regardless of their origins.

So, IMO, it seems you just don't want someone here who wasn't born here and it only makes you feel more comfortable about them being here if they have a far too expensive piece of paper that says it's okay for them to be here.

reply to post by buddhasystem


Really? So you would be okay that America helped people like Merigold only if they could have afforded to buy a piece of paper? So you get the paper, you deserve the opportunities. Otherwise, you're a leach, regardless of your contribution to society.



[edit on 16-9-2009 by nunya13]

Originally posted by nunya13So, IMO, it seems you just don't want someone here who wasn't born here and it only makes you feel more comfortable about them being here if they have a far too expensive piece of paper that says it's okay for them to be here.

You are wrong on all counts. The argument about non-paying customers: yeah, it sucks when people don't pay for ER, question is, do we need more of such people? Do we need depressed wages in manual labor sector? What's so difficult to understand in all this?

If China was bordering the United States, they could have easily "exported" a billion of their citizenry in the US. What would you say then?

Originally posted by nunya13
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

So you would be perfectly happy if all of them, these "invaders", came in legally? You suddenly wouldn't see it as an "invasion" or "violation of sovereignty?

Also, refer to Jam's post above me to see how your claims that they decimate services is inaccurate.


[edit on 16-9-2009 by nunya13]

ecstatic.

i live and have lived in arizona and california practically my whole life...it IS a problem. it is a problem that i walk through the parking lot at walmart seeing bumper stickers that have Calvin Peeing on AMERICA.
its a problem when our already shoddy education system is being further derailed and DEfunded so more time and funds can go to teaching the american kids spanish--the spanish kids english (which i've seen it and heard from many educators-they don't WANT to learn it and their parents aren't too keen on it either)

i'm all for people coming here and making a better life. and i've known many immigrants that i respected more than americans who've been here generations! but there is a great many of them who ruin it for everyone else by coming over here and committing crimes they know they won't be held accountable for make money they know they won't pay taxes on and hey, its not old white men that make it so i cannot walk around my city streets without being harassed and have to fear i won't make it home.

come here and make a better life. they say they hate mexico so much, yet so many come here literally professing their hate for america AND americans...i love the culture THEY CAN BRING THAT WITH THEM!! just accept our culture as well...if they don't like it they should just stay in mexico...because a lot of them come here and do and act just the same as they would IN mexico (not really trying hard to make a better life, just living in a 'better' place)

in response to the OP--this is one case in how many hundreds of thousands. but i do feel really bad for this person vying for citizenship...i hope that the law will be understanding for them and they are still able to obtain this.

edit: to add...they DO abuse our social systems (imo--from experience--more so than the average american) but no one can really blame them we practically beg them to. i heard something the other day the ad said, "can you get food stamps and cash assistance if you are not a citizen?? YES! YOU CAN!" yippeeeeeeeee for them. and their 6 kids under 10

[edit on 9/16/2009 by double_frick]

Originally posted by nunya13
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

Really? So you would be okay that America helped people like Merigold only if they could have afforded to buy a piece of paper? So you get the paper, you deserve the opportunities. Otherwise, you're a leach, regardless of your contribution to society.



[edit on 16-9-2009 by nunya13]

a piece of paper is like, a marriage license, it doesn't mean there is love that when it is absent there isn't.

citizenship papers are to show that the person has taken the time to study and "become" and american and know and understand how america works and the rules they are expected to abide by. no, it doesn't mean the person will be a good or bad citizen but i shows that the people who have done the work to obtain citizenship actually have some regard for our country or our laws at least.

have you had much contact with illegal immigrants as opposed to legal ones? i have. there IS a difference. (legal, not necessarily a citizen, but legal)

Originally posted by stevegmu
As I stated, it costs the state of Virginia $8500/student/year to educate a child in N. Va. Virginia sales tax is 5%, 2% for food. For 1 illegal who has 1 child to not cost the state any money, he would have to buy over $400000 worth of goods and food per year. That's just for 1 child. In my area, the illegals are renters, because no one is going to give a jumbo mortgage to someone who is illegal. Many live 10-15 to a house.

So a legal America with 2-3 possibly 4 kids, by your math, would cost the state $17,000- $34,000 to educate their children.

They would need to buy or pay in $680,000 - $1,700,000 in goods/taxes to cover the cost of their kids going to school.

Not exactly a small feat for even a wealthy family.

How do you think this deficit is accounted for? By the people who don't have kids subsidizing it. I have no problem with that.

I'm just saying that if you take out the illegal immigrant equation and their children, you're still left dealing with a deficit in the cost it takes to educate someone's child.

Sounds like the problem is the cost it takes to give children proper schooling, not illegals who still work, pay taxes, and buy goods plus tax.

reply to post by double_frick


But those same standards aren't required of Americans. Using your marriage certificate analogy, some priests/pastors won't marry a couple unless they do a counseling session. This is solely for the piece of mind of the priest/pastor. It proves nothing as to how they can handle a marriage, whether they should even BE married, or if they have the right understanding of marriage.

Do you think that illegals don't know the laws and the way America works any less than an American born citizen does?



[edit on 16-9-2009 by nunya13]

reply to post by double_frick

have you had much contact with illegal immigrants as opposed to legal ones? i have. there IS a difference. (legal, not necessarily a citizen, but legal)

I have and I still do and I find them to be just like any other group. For the most part they are looking for a better life, but among them exist bad apples.

But bad apples exist in every group.

Originally posted by nunya13
reply to post by double_frick

 

But those same standards aren't required of Americans. Using your marriage certificate analogy, some priests/pastors won't marry a couple unless they do a counseling session. This is solely for the piece of mind of the priest/pastor. It proves nothing as to how they can handle a marriage, whether they should even BE married, or if they have the right understanding of marriage.

Do you think that illegals don't know the laws and the way America works any less than an American born citizen does?

[edit on 16-9-2009 by nunya13]

touche on the marriage license thing...
however, not only do i think that illegals are unclear on the laws they are expected to follow *or would be if they were citizens* they simply do NOT have to follow them, i repeat ILLEGALS DO NOT HAVE THE SAME LAWS AS LEGAL CITZENS--EVEN IF THEY GET CAUGHT FOR A CRIME.
this may make me sound a bit biased, but if you knew me you would know better but both my dad and my grandfather have been in accidents bad enough that their cars were totalled--non-drivable... both times the person who RAN A RED LIGHT (apparently they don't have lights in mexico???) and both times the man was obviously intoxicated...and both times the police did not arrest the drive...barely questioned them. when my grandfather asked why and why if HE had been the Driver and not the illegal he'd be going to jail and paying hefty fines, etc...the police officer simply told him they weren't worth the effort. there wasn't much they could do to the illegal but deport them, that is trouble for them, paperwork and they know in a week tops that same illegal is going to be perptrating some crime HERE in america anyway...so why bother.

they cannot take these illegals to jail because they aren't citizens. they get deported. and they don't get in trouble there. they get lunch and a free ride HOME. only to be here again weeks later with NO sense that maybe this time they should follow the rules they (hopefully) do know because they know they are not going to have real consequences anyway.

they don't have to go to our jails or stand accountable for their negative actions but they want all these special favors and scholarships and funds for them and their children...and we want to give it to them. its ludicrous.
americans have a hard time obtaining these services and if we commit a crime we DO THE TIME.

reply to post by double_frick


Part of my point in all of this is that, as an example, everything you said against illegals can be said for Americans too. So what does the piece of paper matter?

Also, many countries require their children to learn English, they don't complain.

You should read Jam's article to see that many of the assumptions about illegals "damage" on society is inaccurate because even if you take them out of the equation, we'd still have the same problems.

Here's the link for easier access.

Originally posted by jam321
reply to post by double_frick

 

have you had much contact with illegal immigrants as opposed to legal ones? i have. there IS a difference. (legal, not necessarily a citizen, but legal)

I have and I still do and I find them to be just like any other group. For the most part they are looking for a better life, but among them exist bad apples.

But bad apples exist in every group.

i couldn't agree more. as i've said before its unfortunate (and legal mexicans should be the most upset) That a MINORITY of EXTREMELY bad apples are tainting the beautiful mexican culture and people as a whole. it is the case for every subculture in america, of course, because the negative people in these groups draw more attention to themselves by committing crimes and sticking out like a sore thumb.
which is why it would benefit any mexican (or any immigrant for that matter) who wishes to be taken seriously to come here and become a citizen...this takes time and they won't come over and automatically become one...but taking the effort to go through these citizenship requirements shows they really DO want to come for the right reasons and they will respect our way of life and can expect we will do the same.
its also sad that many americans make the rest of us who simply expect people to come in here the right way so they can be JUST LIKE US are now demonized as heartless racists and that just isn't the case at all.

reply to post by double_frick


Definitely some good points.

I should have said a long time ago that I don't think that there's NOTHING negative that can come from people being illegals. But, for the most part, those problems have to do with a broken system, not a citizenship status.

I think our best solution to this problem is to make it easier for people to come to America. Not to deny people a better life because they can't afford one. It's really a catch-22 when you think about it. You want to move here because Mexico isn't conducive to raising a family on adequate resources/finances, but you have to have resources/finances to come to a place that will allow you access to those resources/finances.

Maybe this is my underlying issue with all of this. I'm sorry to sound childish but I haven't got a better phrase that suits my feelings on this matter....It's just no fair.

Originally posted by nunya13
reply to post by double_frick

 

Part of my point in all of this is that, as an example, everything you said against illegals can be said for Americans too. So what does the piece of paper matter?

Also, many countries require their children to learn English, they don't complain.

You should read Jam's article to see that many of the assumptions about illegals "damage" on society is inaccurate because even if you take them out of the equation, we'd still have the same problems.

Here's the link for easier access.

my point was only that americans are held accountable for their actions and illegals are not...
if you know you aren't going to get in trouble or spend time in jail, pay a fine, are you going to follow the rules? well, maybe you would, but sadly many others DO NOT.

saying that we would still have 'the same problems' if we didn't have an illegal immigration problem is like saying humans have NO negative effect on the planet. insanity. though saying the opposite would be insanity as well.
we would have PROBLEMS still, without illegals...but illegals do present additional issues, both on a local level and a national level.

i don't disagree that children SHOULD learn more languages, but not out of necessity. it is, admittedly, pathetic that the average american does not and is not expected to know any other language but english. and of course, neighboring mexico and the rest of latin america it makes sense that that language should be SPANISH. and i have no problem with that, its the sudden urgency because of the immigration issue that has made this happen. i guess its a silver lining to, from what i can see, is a bit of a dark cloud. good that kids are learning spanish. not good that mexican adults and many of their children sometimes resist learning english and detest american culture.

also, try to go be an illegal immigrant in another country, its practically impossible because they just don't allow it.
if america didn't want it, we wouldn't have it. the gov't invites this problem in and acts like they want to fix it and the people are the only ones who have to deal with the friction.