Weapons for Survival Part 1

Originally posted by gambon
Any non firearm advice for those not able to aquire them .eg most of the western world except Usa and Canada..? Ahem

You could sharpen a stick

Seriously, I had a friend who had a paintball rifle back in the 90's and he loaded it with a bath oil bead (the ones with oil in them) They are the same size. He tried using it to shoot and the bath oil bead is more flexible than the Paint ball so it does not break it instead transfers all the energy to the target. He used to use it kill gophers then he would pick up the unbroken bath oil bead, whipe it off and re-use it again. This would be a good way to take down small prey at really close ranges until your air supply ran out.

i'm not a big SHTF kind of thinker, i try to anticipate every/any scenario i can come up with, but i don't tend to dwell on them for extended periods of time...more like just being aware of my surroundings, etc.

having a critical thinking mindset, wanting to attack problems and try to solve them...that's the kind of stuff that is practical in modern times. honestly IMO if there is any kind of martial law, idk what there would be to do besides leave or dig a hole somewhere...technology has taken leaps and bounds, and this whole "i'll go hold up in the woods" idea most likely won't cut it...besides, by going off and bugging out, you're not really doing anything except trying to avoid trouble. nothing will change...

the best way to avoid these situations is to help prevent them. be active in the community, stand up for yourself now before the situation escalates, but be diplomatic so that it doesn't escalate.

i find that tips/ideas like this are more suited for natural disaster or accidents, hiking camping, etc...the whole "bug out when SHTF" idea is most likely the least likely to happen...

anyway, the topic is weapons for survival...within the topic there should include war/civil unrest, etc...but more realistically you should think sever natural disaster and emergency/accidents...

just my newbie take on the situation, your mileage may vary

I have a

Remington 597 in 22lr for small game
an Ithaca 37 in 12 gauge for birds
Lee Enfield in 303Br for the larger game like deer
H&R Buffalo Classic Single shot in 45-70


I'm thinking of getting one of the folling for defense but have not yet decided because I'm on the fence.

Option 1
Ruger Mini Thirty in 7.62x39mm
Pros
Cheap ammo
Uses the same .311 diameter bullets as my 303 so I can reload the same 160 grain rounds I cast for my 303.
Light weight 6.5lbs
Cons
Shorter range than option2
Not a lot of ammo stockpiles in North America.
Ammo mostly is chinese made

Option 2
Astralian Arms Modern "Lee Enfield" in 308 winchester
www.storm.ca...
Pros
Ammo easy to get
Similar feel and operation as my 303
Better for larger animals like mouse than the ruger
Cons
need a new mold for reloading
Heavy 10.5lbs

reply to post by semperfortis



I am so glad you have started threads like this.I have been thinking
about getting a gun,I just wasn't sure what my husband would think
about it. Now,we are both signed up for self defence and gun safety classes.Thank-you!

I live in the UK and weapons for survival or for any other matter are a big no no. Unfortunately.

There are a few things you can keep at home - like knives, certain swords, crossbows, air rifles but none of these are allowed on the street.

I am disregarding improvised (spur of the moment weapons at this point).

This is why for fellow UK peoples I would recommend becoming as proficient as possible in unarmed combat.

NOT a sporting martial art. Too many rules.

I've been training in the Bujinkan (ninjutsu) for the past eight years and I think that unarmed skills should come equal to a proper armed weapon because you may be faced in some of the following situations...

- unarmed versus unarmed
- unarmed versus armed.... (maybe you need to take a weapon from someone) or just survive it.

In the Bujinkan you learn how to apply yourself in these situations and how unarmed and armed are so closely related.

Don't get me wrong, a weapon is always an advantage - I keep several different lengthed staffs at home and a Japanese sword.

Whether you are talking about proper weapons such as knives or firearms or improvised weapons such as a pen, belt, spanner or cup of hot tea...

the golden rule is not to rely solely on any of them.

Make yourself the weapon whether it means being a good fighter, marksman.. runner... or a good liar.

Hope I've not gone off topic.

Is that an sks simonov if so you lucky b'stard

[edit on 2-9-2009 by gambon]

Yep it is!

I got it in 1994 as a gift. The guy who gave it to me paid $99 and it was still packed in cosomoline.

Over the years it's had some accessories put on and then taken off, like a scope, muzzle brake, etc.

The only accessory I kept was the aftermarket stock because it added a couple of inches, and a sling.

It's ugly but it loves to shoot!

Originally posted by jibeho
reply to post by emsed1

 

You can't go wrong on that 870 especially if it has some police mods. already done to it. I have my dad's old 870 Wingmaster and a newer 870 Marine Magnum that I bought used a couple of years ago. Great guns with loads of possible upgrades and spare parts available.

Cool! I think that's the way I will go. They are reported to be slightly used, but 870s seem to hold up well.

Originally posted by EyesWideShut
reply to post by emsed1

 

The 590 is a great gun , If I didn't have my 500 that's what I'd get. You have a decent arsenal going too , fabrique nationale makes a great product If I could justify buying the Five-seveN, I would. I've worked with the P90 and it was fun , awkward ergonomics but fun none the less. I really like that 5.7 Round and the 20 round magazine. The recoil is unbelievably nonexistent.

I'd love to play with one.

I work as a paramedic based out of a police station and ever since the Five-seveN came out they have been keeping an eye out for them. Apparently gang-bangers like to use them to poke holes in body armor.

Originally posted by exile1981
I have a

Remington 597 in 22lr for small game
an Ithaca 37 in 12 gauge for birds
Lee Enfield in 303Br for the larger game like deer
H&R Buffalo Classic Single shot in 45-70


I'm thinking of getting one of the folling for defense but have not yet decided because I'm on the fence.

Option 1
Ruger Mini Thirty in 7.62x39mm
Pros
Cheap ammo
Uses the same .311 diameter bullets as my 303 so I can reload the same 160 grain rounds I cast for my 303.
Light weight 6.5lbs
Cons
Shorter range than option2
Not a lot of ammo stockpiles in North America.
Ammo mostly is chinese made

Option 2
Astralian Arms Modern "Lee Enfield" in 308 winchester
www.storm.ca...
Pros
Ammo easy to get
Similar feel and operation as my 303
Better for larger animals like mouse than the ruger
Cons
need a new mold for reloading
Heavy 10.5lbs

In my opinion for a 7.62 x 39 semi-auto you can't go wrong with an SKS in good shape. The Mini-30 is an excellent brush gun but the SKS can do everything it can do at about 1/3 of the price.

7.62 ammo is coming down in price also. It's back down to about $250 per 1000.

The problem with 7.62x39 is that the vast majority of it is not reloadable, IE steel casing or imported brass with non-reloadable corrosive primers.

The 'default' bullet in a 7.62x39 round is a 122grain.

You can purchase brass 7.62x39 from UMC/Remington, etc, but expect to pay nearly $1 per round instead of 25 to 35 cents for Russian.

reply to post by emsed1


So basicly your saying that I won't be able to reload the cheap ammo for the 7.62x39. SKS is hard to get in Canada, there are cheap $150 chinese ones available that can not be modified to full auto, but everyones says they are made of cheap metal and break quickly. So I guess I'm then going to lean towards the 308. Thanks

reply to post by emsed1


Ugly in the eye of the beholder ,I kind of like them and im sure semi is plenty
accurate for the type as well so i hear,

reply to post by gambon


Far more accurate than my buddy's Romanian AK with a 16 inch barrel.

There IS a way to make an SKS full-auto, but it is terrifying and uncontrollable.

The SKS has a floating firing pin which has been known to get 'stuck' when the rifle is dirty or poorly maintained. This has occasionally resulted in slam-fire in which the unlucky bastard pulls the slide on a full magazine and the SKS proceeds to empty all rounds very quickly in a terrifying fashion!

I had a slamfire incident once with a compact Astra .40 cal pistol once and even though it only emptied seven rounds it convinced me that fully automatic weapons are useless for anyone actually trying to hit a target.

reply to post by exile1981


There is a good option to the mini30. check out the keltec su16c. It's chambered in .223 Nato but they might rechamber for the 7.62x39. problem with the rugers, keltecs or any good carbine is there nearly impossible to find right now. You can probably still get your hands on
an enfield though. The way things are going I would grab whatever I
could get rather than wait and possibly have nothing.

For me I'll take the su16c and a glock26 for backup.

I have found a few Ak's for sale if you're interested. Get 'em while
you can folks (offer not valid the in the People's republik of Kalifornia)

Originally posted by emsed1

The 'default' bullet in a 7.62x39 round is a 122grain.

You can purchase brass 7.62x39 from UMC/Remington, etc, but expect to pay nearly $1 per round instead of 25 to 35 cents for Russian.

Or you can reload from the beginning, I bought a bag of 50 7.62x39 Winchester brass, I can't remember how much it was, between $15 and $20...more expensive than other brass for sure but it should last me several reloads easily. Hornady 123gr SP bullets were probably around $15...I already have powder and primers...

Although in a SHTF scenario we may not have time to reload but i can imagine having powder, primers, bullets, and a Lee hand press would be very valuable. It'd be like printing money if one can trade ammo for food/goods.

reply to post by AnonymousMoose


That's a great idea I never thought of. Dillon has once-fired brass pretty cheap but I don't know how expensive it would be.

I have about 600 rounds of Yugo brass (corrosive) but I'm not sure if it's possible to reload. I think it has the primer like the Russian ammo has.

Im thinking I only want one weapon for my bug-out kit. The logistics of carrying ammo for multiple weapons plus repair / cleaning kits seems extreme.

I understand the thought behind having a smaller weapon like a 22 to hunt rabbits. But if you want real survival food you will want bigger game and a 22 isnt taking out a buck or bear.

So my thought is this, how about the big gun for big game and traps for small game ? Big gun equals better defense and more food. and a few snares / traps let you eat some rabbit as well.

Thats my thought anyway.

Oh and to the folks in England who cant own weapons, consider an air rifle. They can easily kill rabbits and other small game. And a few even are strong enough to take down a small deer.

if you live near water you all might want to consider nets. I have a couple that i can string across a stream and essentially catch anything that swims downstream. it doesnt take bait and is a heck of a lot easier than pole fishing for food.

One of the most important weapons you will need for survival is a sling shot or wrist rocket. Eventually in the long run you are going to run out of ammo for any type of gun/rifle. I am of course talking about a serious long term surv. situation.
I am a survivalist and I also was a sniper in the Army in Korea in '88. 2nd ID, 2/503, CP. Hovey.

Editing this to be a bit clearer. If you are only using a weapon to hunt your food with in a serious long term survival situation...you will eventually run out of ammo and you can only carry/bring so much ammo with you for weight reasons as you better hope you are carring more survival gear then just a weapon...or you will die. This is provided that you are in a rural, wilderness, desert, etc. setting.
Now if you are in a urban area , like a city, and plan on staying there long term your chances of surviving long term are slim, unless your house is built of solid steel or something and you have a ton of food stored away...which hardly anyone does. In an urban setting people are going to be looking to rob you. shooting people and killing them is not like the movies and is not a good feeling afterwards. It's one thing to talk about it and another to have to actually do it. In an urban setting others are going to have rifles, guns, etc. and are also going to be looking to shoot you. It's not a good survival situation.

[edit on 9-9-2009 by GregoNow]

I agree a .22LR rifle and pistol are a definitely a requirement for a SHTF situation. When you can find it, Wal-mart carries 550rd packs of .22LR for around $15. Stock up now. I'm down to my last 1k rounds or so now (we do alot of plinking at my house) and need to get stocked back up.

Shotgun is also required for hunting. I don't care how good of a shot you are it's WAY easier hunting small game like rabbits (or crows, pigeons, etc. -- depending on how bad things were) with a shotgun. I disagree on the .410. Good point that the ammo is lighter but a 12ga is required equipment IMO. By far and large the most popular shotgun size in the U.S., ammo is cheaper much more available. Good luck finding .410 shells when SHTF. Everybody else is going to be packing 12ga's.

IMO you also need a 9mm or a .45ACP. Again, they are very popular calibers, and most likely to find ammo when SHTF. .223 and/or 7.62x39 would be nice too, again, purely for ammo availability. As much as I love the .40S&W I won't be packing it in my BOB. Gotta go with something I'm more likely to be able to reload later down the road.

SKS would be my choice for a long gun. I know it's not super-accurate but I don't foresee myself needing to reach out past a couple hundred yards very often. Some people may say the AK is way better -- and they're right -- but I can arm myself, my wife and teenage son with SKS's for the price of one AK. Would rather have three folks shooting than one.

If you live in an area where you feel hunting large game may be necessary (bears, elk, moose) I recommend one of the mosin-nagant rifles such as the M42, M38 or 91/30. They cost about $100-$150, pretty accurate out to several hundred yards, and (currently) you can buy 440rd spam-cans of 7.62x54R ammo for under $100. They're sealed in air-tight containers, you can stock up now and they will pretty much last forever. For $500 you can get a rifle and almost 2,000 rounds of ammo.

[edit on 9/12/2009 by Mortimer452]

A quick question someone may know the answer to - I noticed a semi-automatic .223LR rifle for sale for around $650 whereas the .223 of the same type gun was well over $1,200. Why the difference? Is the straight .223 just that much better of a gun? (The gun was an AR15 type weapon).

I am in the market for a purely defensive weapon and am not really that familiar with firearms. I want a firearm that will do the job when necessary (hopefully it won't be necessary) but I would rather not pay thousands of $.

Any ideas would be appreciated!

Originally posted by Kenesay200
A quick question someone may know the answer to - I noticed a semi-automatic .223LR rifle for sale for around $650 whereas the .223 of the same type gun was well over $1,200. Why the difference? Is the straight .223 just that much better of a gun? (The gun was an AR15 type weapon).

I am in the market for a purely defensive weapon and am not really that familiar with firearms. I want a firearm that will do the job when necessary (hopefully it won't be necessary) but I would rather not pay thousands of $.

Any ideas would be appreciated!

Not sure what you mean there . . . you must be getting something wrong in your description. There is no .223LR, there is .223 (also referred to as 5.56mm)

The two most popular .223 rifles are the Ruger Mini-14 (typically around $650) and the AR-15. The AR can be had for $900 or so but typically in the $1,000-$1,200 range. You'll find tricked-out ones for $3,000 or more. That's the great thing about the AR. It's such a modular weapon platform the possibilities for customization and accessories are limitless.

If you're looking for a self-defense weapon (I assume you are talking about home defense), and are not that familiar with firearms, you can't go wrong with a shotgun. Easy to learn to shoot, easier to hit what you're aiming at, and positively devastating at close range. You may be tempted to buy a handgun but you should realize they are much, much harder to learn to shoot accurately. Start with a shotty.

First and foremost, though, get out and learn to shoot! Don't buy a shotgun and set it loaded next to your nightstand thinking you'll be able to just whip that baby out and deal some justice to any bad guys that enter your house. You need to practice, get good with it, familiarize yourself with the operation and controls so you can do it while fumbling around in the dark and scared out of your mind and need it the most.

The Remington 870 is one of the most popular shotguns in the world, been around for 50+ years, and available in all types of configurations. You can pick them up for about $250 new at Wal-mart or any sporting goods store. The "tactical" models (scary black ones) make the best home-defense weapons.

Most folks will tell you to use 00 buckshot or rifled slugs for home defense but I disagree. My HD gun is loaded with #6 birdshot. I use birdshot for one reason -- overpenetration. 00 buckshot or slugs will go through several walls and could potentially hit innocent family members in another room if all of the pellets didn't make contact with your enemy, or if you missed. Birdshot won't likely go through much more than one layer of sheetrock, and if it does, would probably not be lethal coming out the other side.

At 15ft (typical home-defense range) birdshot is still pretty much a solid slug of lead, hasn't had time to disperse yet. At that range it's not much difference impact-wise than buckshot or slugs.

[edit on 9/13/2009 by Mortimer452]