10 year old Child bride turned over to 80-year-old husband

mikerussellus
Genital mutilations are ok then?
You can't justify their actions with theirs being a different culture.
Sometimes wrong is just wrong.

And yet it is perfectly acceptible in western culture to perform genital mutilation on babies. Provided that they are male. Why is it evil and horrific and wrong for them to do it to girls but natural, and healthy and proper for us to do it to boys?



[edit on 27-8-2009 by LordBucket]

Originally posted by LordBucket

mikerussellus
Genital mutilations are ok then?
You can't justify their actions with theirs being a different culture.
Sometimes wrong is just wrong.

And yet it is perfectly acceptible in western culture to perform genital mutilation on babies. Provided that they are male. Why is it evil and horrific and wrong for them to do it to girls but natural, and healthy and proper for us to do it to boys?



[edit on 27-8-2009 by LordBucket]

I will be glad to answer this question.
Because female genital mutilation is not just removing a tiny portion of skin that surrounds the tiny clitoris. Female genital mutilation involves removing the entire clitoris usually using dirty instruments without anestesia. Further the procedure doesn't stop there. Many cases involving sewing up the labia to insure virginity. This makes the skin grow together only leaving a tiny hole for menstal blood and urine to pass. When a girl is given to marriage the male will open the tiny hole with force of his penis causing tearing of the skin. This practice is done on 90% of the women in Etheopia and very common in Egypt under the supervision of clerics.
So it's quite different from male circumcision.
Any other questions?

Originally posted by ravenshadow13
I also said that government law, such as that guaranteeing human safety and rights, which this government has put into place, overpower all religiously linked laws including Shariah.

So... I don't really see how we're saying different things.

WRONG.
Sharia law is governmental law in 57 OIC countries. Clerics and imams hold government positions and dictate sharia.
In Iran homosexuals are hanged by governmental sharia law.
In Saudi those who convert to Christianity are beheaded by governmental sharia law.
In Pakistan, Egypt, and 57 other countries women are buried to their waist and stoned for adultry, that is the law.
These are governmental laws of Republics of Islam (OIC) that are carried out.
Do some research!

JJay55:
Because female genital mutilation is not just removing a
tiny portion of skin that surrounds the tiny clitoris.

I don't often quote the christian bible. But at times it seems the most appropriate thing to do.

Matthew 7:5
You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

And yet, neither am I exempt from this. In responding to a thread such as this, perhaps I should have considered...

Matthew 7:6
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

JJay55:
Any other questions?

There is nothing I can say to you that will convey any meaning. Do as you will.

Seems to be a holdover from a primitive cultural period when reproduction was such a necessity to grow a tribe that any and all children were subjected to the will of the tribal elders. Obviously, this has not been stopped as yet, and the country tolerating such acts without enforcement of their laws shows it acceptance of this violation of basic rights for children. How backward and disturbing.

Originally posted by afterschoolfun
reply to post by ravenshadow13

 

Ok... well what if the culture's goal was to eliminate a whole race of people because they were deemed "unclean", should we respect their bloodthirsty nature? Or what about cannibalistic societies? Human sacrifice? Child prostitution? How can you compare defending basic human rights to different food selection? Maybe you don't have kids, but try to imagine your own child married, having sex, missing out on having friends etc. Our culture isn't all that great, but at least we put child molesters in prison.

When has that ever happened. As far as I can tell, from what is written in books, the Nazis were a group of people. Them killing and trying to exterminate Jews had nothing to do with their culture. Even among them people were trying to stop everything they were doing.

Not too long ago people here in the United States were hung from trees because their skin wasn't white. Women are still not equal to men here in the States. As a God fearing Christian, this disgusts me, as a human being this disgusts me, but as a citizen of the world I cant help but feel that we have enough problems as it is without taking on some more.

Some of you expressing your disgust are the same ones, that if this little girl were living in Mexico and she escaped to United States without visa or proper papers, would want her out.

Just my 2cents.

Commenting as logically as possible.
Unfortunately, to ever resolve a situation like this, it is going to take one group declaring that they are better than another, and imposing their will on them. Amusing of course that this situation can be or should be resolved.
While I may say something is wrong, another might say something is right.
This is the human dilemma.
So it's not the question of who is right or wrong, but when do we decide as a species, what the difference is?
We have not reached that point yet.

Now for my feelings.
For the record, personally, I think it's abhorrent and selfishly wrong.
Everyone should be shot, with the exception of the 10 year old girl.
You know that she is being exploited physically.
Disgusting.
That is my opinion, and I am entitled to it.
No one can sway me from it.

Originally posted by Jim Scott
Seems to be a holdover from a primitive cultural period when reproduction was such a necessity to grow a tribe that any and all children were subjected to the will of the tribal elders. Obviously, this has not been stopped as yet, and the country tolerating such acts without enforcement of their laws shows it acceptance of this violation of basic rights for children. How backward and disturbing.

There are 57 OIC countries that practice fgm. What also happens to girls in these countries, some of the percentages are 95% is scarring of the pubis, vulva, and urethra and during childbirth the causes death of the baby and the mother. Many girls die from the procedure of FGM because of infection. Other girls commit suicide because of the psychological factors.
This is not an act that is isolated. It happens daily and is spreading. There was a case in Atlanta recently. The father performed the procedure and in court said it was his right. You will notice that many muslims put sharia law above civil law in places they have migrated to.

reply to post by ravenshadow13


Um, no.

We are not telling them to live as we do. They can eat whatever crap, sing whatever songs, wear whatever funny hats the like. I could care less.

However, they are actively harming and violating the rights and lives of others. That is not acceptable, and people of any basic moral backbone would object loudly.

Its been said before. Slavery, genocide, racism, child slave labor, all of these things were part of "culture" in every country. Can you imagine what the world would be like today if people took the morally lazy attitude of "not my culture, can't tell them how to live"?

When "culture" infringes on the basic human dignity and rights of a person, it should not be tolerated, period. This little girl, a child, was given away like a piece of property to some 80 year old pervert, without her opinion, desires, age, or consent taken into account. This is no different from slavery, where a slave is also sold or passed around like property. Do you also believe we should ignore slavery in other countries?

Sorry, but your argument of culture falls flat. We are not talking about telling them to adopt our lifestyle, we want them to stop trampeling on the basic human rights of people within their society. If that's their "culture", then it needs to change.

In the south once, it was "culture" to make blacks ride on the back of the bus, push em out of the way on the street, and force them to use substandard facilities, lynch them without trial, beat and torture them for having sexual relations with white people, ect.

Thankfully, the rest of the country eventually decided they weren't going to tolerate anymore of this"culture".

Who here defends the institutionalization of child rape?

Some are saying its okay because the father approved. Say what?

There is no way of slicing this one to make it "ok". Yeah, child rape still occurs in our country, but if the adult is caught he/she is punished severely.

Hey, if your culture wants to worship idols and smoke coconuts, go for it. But I'll cut your culture's balls off if it rapes children in the name of "marriage".

Try me.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

That's the sharia law in a nutshell. If she's old enough to walk you can marry her. Who ever made the sharia law had a few screws loose.

Oh and there is nothing ok about marrying a 10 year old girl. That is one nasty old man.

[edit on 27-8-2009 by Chovy]

Originally posted by Sundancer
reply to post by ravenshadow13

 

other countries and cultures have customs different than our own. We have no right to meddle with these cultural differences

I couldn't have said it better. I might not not agree with girls that young being married but it isn't about what I think. It's about time we stop butting in where we don't belong.

What about what this ten year old thought? She had run away to her aunt's home to get away from her enforced marriage.

Some of you are supporting the culture by saying "we don't have a right to tell them what to do", obviously NEITHER does this child, WHO will be her advocate? Obviously not some of the posters here.

If we ignore it, we are condoning it.

reply to post by LordBucket


The benefits of male circumcision far outweigh what few minor risks their are.

If you can't see that, then that's your problem. Male circumcision and FGM are no where near comparable, and to try to compare them shows a true lack on intelligence.

If you are circumcised, you have a lower change of getting HIV, almost complete elimination of invasive penile cancer, your female partner has a lower chance of getting cervical cancer, you have a lower change of getting urinary tract infections, etc etc etc.

Oh and let's not forget Fewer problems with erections

www.circinfo.net...

FGM? ZERO positives, with a high rate of deaths.

Back to the subject at hand, as adult humans, we have a responsibility to protect the children of this world. All children, even those you do not know, even those who live in other countries.

Harm NONE
Peace

reply to post by ravenshadow13


Except this isn't about culture. This is about the violation of basic human rights, in this case the little girl's right to choose for herself. You have to look past the culture, past the rituals and beliefs, and realize that this scared little girl is a real human, just like you and I. As such, her rights as a living, breathing human being who has done nothing illegal need to be protected just as fiercely as yours and mine are.

She is a human first, a Muslim second. Nobody has the right to treat anyone else as property of any kind. Her father is just as terrible a criminal as her husband is.

reply to post by LordBucket


The two acts are completely incomparable. Male circumcision has essentially zero side effects, and in a large number of cases actually improves the man's desirability amongst the opposite sex. Female circumcision is barbaric, resulting in severe physio and physchological trauma, greatly reduced self-esteem, and the almost total destruction of the victim's ability to experience pleasurable intercourse, which turns them into nothing more than cowed breeding machines. Which is exactly what the practitioners are after.

Male circumcision started out as a religious practice to signify a covenant with god, and ended up being a reasonable hygienic practice. Female circumcision started out as a method of control, remains a method of control, and will always be a method of control. Unless we, as a species, can rise up out of the dirt and relegate nonsense like this to the dustbin of history.

[edit on 27/8/2009 by Thousand]

reply to post by JJay55


I do understand sharia law and thats why i said i would rather follow whats in my heart.
Thats a bit more moral then what I am seeing here.
I respect peoples cultures but still see how it is wrong to marry a ten year old.
Its my 2 cents...take it as you will.

reply to post by Scooby Doo


This one is easy. The child even ran away to hide. She is a sex slave at age 10. Only another child abuser or pedophile could defend that in any way.

How does a 10 year old child defend herself and her basic right to not be attacked and raped by an old man?

Anyone who defends this on any grounds is saying that she has no value, no rights and she is just a piece of property or human livestock.

Any society or person who would defend this is as guilty of rape as the old man. This is one sick world we live in, surrounded by sick people.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
reply to post by ravenshadow13

 

Um, no.

We are not telling them to live as we do. They can eat whatever crap, sing whatever songs, wear whatever funny hats the like. I could care less.

However, they are actively harming and violating the rights and lives of others. That is not acceptable, and people of any basic moral backbone would object loudly.

Its been said before. Slavery, genocide, racism, child slave labor, all of these things were part of "culture" in every country. Can you imagine what the world would be like today if people took the morally lazy attitude of "not my culture, can't tell them how to live"?

When "culture" infringes on the basic human dignity and rights of a person, it should not be tolerated, period. This little girl, a child, was given away like a piece of property to some 80 year old pervert, without her opinion, desires, age, or consent taken into account. This is no different from slavery, where a slave is also sold or passed around like property. Do you also believe we should ignore slavery in other countries?

Sorry, but your argument of culture falls flat. We are not talking about telling them to adopt our lifestyle, we want them to stop trampeling on the basic human rights of people within their society. If that's their "culture", then it needs to change.

In the south once, it was "culture" to make blacks ride on the back of the bus, push em out of the way on the street, and force them to use substandard facilities, lynch them without trial, beat and torture them for having sexual relations with white people, ect.

Thankfully, the rest of the country eventually decided they weren't going to tolerate anymore of this"culture".

I quoted this so people might read it twice. Thank you for putting so eloquently what I was trying to argue the other day.

Well said.

Mike

reply to post by mikerussellus


Again, for the tenth time, I still said no I don't support this at all. I just don't think it's right for anyone else to push this country to accept things that they don't yet. But since their kingdom officially has stated that this is wrong, it is their responsibility to act against this despicable crime.

It is that country's responsibility, as they have previously taken a stance against this sort of situation, to annul this marriage and place the girl back into the care of her parents until she is of the legal age in that country which is 18.

If the country takes no action, my next move would be to the UN. Not to the United States to go over there and save her.

When I first posted I was unaware of the stance the country had taken and the fact that it is a provision in their law system that the legal age of adulthood and marriage is 18. I thought there was no legal age requirement. Because there is one, it is unlawful and morally wrong that they do not adhere to it.

But by no means, and this is the important part, should we go into every village where happy marriages are occurring with 15 year olds, and tell them that it is morally wrong and they need to set a minimum age of 16 or 18.

[edit on 8/27/2009 by ravenshadow13]

Originally posted by ravenshadow13
reply to post by mikerussellus

 

Again, for the tenth time, I still said no I don't support this at all. I just don't think it's right for anyone else to push this country to accept things that they don't yet. But since their kingdom officially has stated that this is wrong, it is their responsibility to act against this despicable crime.

It is that country's responsibility, as they have previously taken a stance against this sort of situation, to annul this marriage and place the girl back into the care of her parents until she is of the legal age in that country which is 18.

If the country takes no action, my next move would be to the UN. Not to the United States to go over there and save her.

When I first posted I was unaware of the stance the country had taken and the fact that it is a provision in their law system that the legal age of adulthood and marriage is 18. I thought there was no legal age requirement. Because there is one, it is unlawful and morally wrong that they do not adhere to it.

But by no means, and this is the important part, should we go into every village where happy marriages are occurring with 15 year olds, and tell them that it is morally wrong and they need to set a minimum age of 16 or 18.

[edit on 8/27/2009 by ravenshadow13]

I'm glad to hear you don't support this. But what makes us human (really human) is not just disliking something, but stopping it. It is not an american "thing" to make me want to stop this. It is not an american "thing" to say this is wrong and something needs to be done. It's a "human" thing.
Respect peoples cultures?
Bull poop.
Especially when they refuse to respect thier own people. And they know. They know it's wrong, they know it's evil, but they don't care. They hide behind Sharia Law and PC blather about religious freedoms.
If you want to debate marriage age between 15 and 16 year-olds that's fine, for later.

This is a baby who is now in the hands of an 80 year old man. If that doesn't churn your stomach, then I'd be very disappointed in you.

reply to post by mikerussellus


You suggested economic support to help this situation. For this girl, what would you, as a concerned human being, do?

I am of the belief that flying over there, forcibly removing her from that man, and making sure she is safe back with her parents will do more harm than good. Because if you do it for one girl, do it for all of them. I believe that the moral growth of that nation will eventually prevent this sort of thing from happening at all. In terms of speeding that up, you're right, I don't have any ideas.

I just really don't see any invasive solution at all that would present the desired outcome.

reply to post by ravenshadow13


A 10 year old is not a 15 year old, and obviously, the marriage was not "happy" is the child was running away to her aunt.

If the 15 year olds in said village consented to marriage and are happy to be married, fine. However, this is very rarely the case. In these cases, girls are basically given away without their say so, and have zero control and say in their lives. This simply is wrong, to deny a human the right to choose, even before they are old enough to do so.

I'm sure there were a few blacks in South Africa who were content with apartheid. Should we have simply condoned it by inaction for their sake? I say no.

We do not have to use violence or war to change the unacceptable cultural behaviors. South Africa ended apartheid after non-violent pressure, boycotting, ect of the country.

And while the country technically might say "yeah, its illegal", does not mean they really are going to lift a finger to enforce the law. I saw this when I was in saudi Arabia. technically, slavery was illegal, yet still widely practiced, and rarely, if ever, punished or investigated. Obviously, countries like this need the same sort of pressure that was once used for apartheid.