Chemtrail Debunkers are Losing.

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posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 01:20 PM
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ok, so chemtrails are supposedly just caused by air temperature and exhaust from the plane.

When I was young, the planes did not leave trails that lasted for hours. The planes did not leave trails that "become" clouds themselves.

So if it is not chemicals added, hence chemtrail, then obviously something has changed in the fuel that is used.

Could chemicals be hidden in the fuel? just asking. There is something strange going on with the trails, so people who close their eyes and go "lalalala" are deluding themselves, but at the same time, the people who yell and scream that the government is spreading chemical agents in the trails are maybe a little too far. WHere is the middle ground? The answer must lie somewhere in between.




posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 01:20 PM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 

Thanks for the sentiments and reply.
I do hope you are right.
Especially for the childrens sake.
Calm winds and (hopefully) clear skies to you.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 01:21 PM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 


I suppose... But that I do occasionally see the blue I remember. Perhaps it is you that has not noticed this shift...? Being as you look a lot on a (roughly) daily basis?

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I have looked out (especially after a rain) and seen that bright blue of my childhood. And as I said, shortly thereafter, I will see a grid of trails... And then the sky will be back to its steely blue color most often seen now.

How this can be - other than a great deal of stuff being sprayed in the air - I cannot conceive.

[shrug] Merely what I have observed.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 03:10 PM
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reply to post by Amaterasu
 


Well, to you, [color=cyan]Amaterasu, and others who have lived for about the same number of decades....

Our childhood recollections notwithstanding, it is a simple fact that there has been a very large increase in air traffic, just in the last twenty years!

I say twenty, because when I began flying actual passenger jets in 1983 we had very different engines, mostly the "turbojet" design. "Turbofan", or high-bypass designs were just becoming more prevalent.

Turbofans were preferred for many reasons: More fuel efficient. Quieter. Did I already say more fuel efficient???

From a power to fuel-consumption ratio, the technology kept evolving, ESPECIALLY as the price of fuel kept going up.

What resulted was, these different technologically designed engines meant MORE contrails, in greater numbers, under more varied atmospheric parameters. The "wiindow" of viable contrail production expanded. In terms of temperatures, altitudes and RH. Some folks wish to cite an old (1950s era) chart that graphs contrail formation vs. altitude/temperature, but THAT was compiled based on older jet engine technology, of the time.

Cirrus clouds form naturally, of course. We've all seen them. Thing to understand, it's quite basic, is that clouds --- ALL clouds --- need some sort of particulate, something, anything, a dust particle, or a small carbon particle from an engine's exhaust, something to be the 'nucleus' for the water vapor to condense onto, in higher levels it will freeze almost immediately into ice, but if the temperatures are above freezing, it will remain liquid.

This, Presto! Clouds!

Contrails are, just, clouds. Formed 'artificially', of course, BECAUSE of the influence of the passing jet airplane, and its hot engine exhaust and normal particulates that result fromthe combustion of hydrocarbon-based jet fuel.

I am sorry, but THAT is the science!!

It is a dumbed-down explanation, to be sure....but that is because it is so simple to begin with!!

ANY pilot familiar with high altitude flying will tell you the same thing.

It is only the charlatans who wish to promote this "chemtrail" baloney who wish to say otherwise.

There are many, many better things to devote our enbergies towards, IF yo wish to find conspiracies. THIS is a distraction, and it is sad to see people fall for it.

PS...It just started to rain, outside. IT IS Natural. It's called "weather".
SAME with high altitude clouds, "fuzzy"-looking days in the Summer, etc, etc, etc.......



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by Udontknowme
reply to post by Brother Stormhammer
 


The author states, "atmospheric samples in Santa Fe, New Mexico."

Why does it matter? An atmospheric sample of any kind, any where, showing biological and non-biological pollution should be studied further, especially this day and age.

What do you have to say about the Swedish article pointing to metallic particulate being 50% of volume? You didn't question where or at what
altitude they were sampling.



It matters because it's being used to support a given theory about the origin of the pollution, not merely to document its existence. If you're wanting to prove that the pollution is coming from an airborne spraying operation, you have to not only document that the pollution is present, but that it doesn't come from some other source. Until that's done, all you can say with any certainty is that pollution is present. You can't (at least not with any validity) say that the pollution came from contrails.

Just to provide an example (not based on any real data, mind you, but just an example of what I'm trying to get across), let's say that, in a hypothetical experiment, you set up a filtration trap beside I-10 outside Phoenix AZ. Your collected samples show that the air at that location is rich in hydrocarbon compounds, and shows trace amounts of something very similar to microscopic bits of rubber. You *might* point to that data, and claim that aircraft flying out of Sky Harbor are spraying an aerosol mixture of some exotic organic compound over Phoenix. You might also postulate that your samples are showing automobile exhaust and tire dust from the nearby freeway. Which would you think more likely? See why questions like "Where is this sample from?" and "At what altitude was it taken?" matter?

As to the Swedish article you mentioned, I didn't see it...but I have the same questions regarding their methodology. I also have to wonder about the results. "Metallic particulate" was found to be 50% of the volume of what, exactly? 50% of the sample volume? Unlikely, unless they were taking samples right next to an industrial grinder. 50% of the contaminants in a given sample? The statement you provided is more than ambiguous.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 03:37 PM
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Originally posted by Le Colonel


When I was young, the planes did not leave trails that lasted for hours. The planes did not leave trails that "become" clouds themselves.



How long ago are we talking? I remember contrails in the 70s. I was told as a child that it was angels so i do remember it clearly.
Back in the 70s there also wasn't as much air travel as there is now.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 03:42 PM
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*********special access programs********

In government there are three basic lines of defense against 'sensitive' documentation. They are in order classified, secret, top secret............... See everyone at ATS is well over the government grades...That's why were all so smart. This grading system, and all official US documents become subject to the Freedom Of Information Act. Meaning at some point there is no hiding it.

In order to assure lasting secrets, the boys in black, or should I say the shadow government/power broker's came up with SAP's long ago.

All truly Black Ops are placed in SAPS.

These Special Access Programs are always done through the large private military industrial complex. In this way, of hiding it through multinational corporations there is never any government oversight.

The congress does fund these corporations, and there is even a Special Access Program ***Oversight Committee***SAPOC. However, they are privy to nothing more than the possibility of said programs; which means many times they don't even have a name for them.

Now, the way in which a SAP operates is to commence, and complete well over 90% of said project in public view through various fronts. Once, the project reaches a nexus point, then it is said a failure, and 'dropped'.

The programs used originally would be of a nature where it would be common knowledge to the average person...Eg. weather manipulation/modification, scientific studies into medicine/DNA, etc.

Later it is picked up by the SAP, and the final never to be known stages of said program are finished.
At the point the public program is deemed a "failure" the a large majority of the SAP funding is put toward a disinformation campaign.

Usually a high percentage of the SAP program funding is put directly into program security, and disinformation campaign.... The campaign launched weaves a tail between the original public program, and the newer SAP; in so doing it makes the *******whistle blowers******** look flustered, and disorganized.


For myself considering the nature of the above, for any pertinent information coming to light, which helps illustrate a SAP, then it deserves a little room for respect, study, and observation.

CHEMTRAILS ARE REAL


The above is from this thread:www.abovetopsecret.com...




I wish people would wake up and notice the hazy skies, dying birds, bees, trees, bizarre weather, dead fish, beaching whales and dolphins, and people getting 2 and 3 chronic diseases with no cure, no cause known. What will it take for people to wake up to aircraft are severely polluting our skies. I would behoove us to know how much, so that we may stop it.


Now, considering the fact of SAPS, and completely off grid programs forever, I don't understand why we cannot move along with undontknowme's proclamation above of, how much is too much, before we stop this?



Debunkers You ALL are debunked. You have no knowledge of the individual deviant SAP programs out there.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by Le Colonel
ok, so chemtrails are supposedly just caused by air temperature and exhaust from the plane.

When I was young, the planes did not leave trails that lasted for hours. The planes did not leave trails that "become" clouds themselves.

So if it is not chemicals added, hence chemtrail, then obviously something has changed in the fuel that is used.

Could chemicals be hidden in the fuel? just asking. There is something strange going on with the trails, so people who close their eyes and go "lalalala" are deluding themselves, but at the same time, the people who yell and scream that the government is spreading chemical agents in the trails are maybe a little too far. WHere is the middle ground? The answer must lie somewhere in between.



Actually, contrails that persist and turn into cloud cover aren't new by any stretch of the imagination.

What were we spraying on Brussels?

Or on Zeitz?

As for adding something to the fuel, in a modern jet engine, that would raise merry hello with the fuel system, degrade the engines' performance, and throw off the aircraft's takeoff weight and trim calculations, which in turn would do ugly things to flight safety.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 03:45 PM
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here's a youtube from liveleak.

People are starting to wake up.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 03:52 PM
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reply to post by sanchoearlyjones
 


www.boeing.com...




The 747-400ER is the Boeing answer to customer demand for a more capable 747-400 that has modern features and is easy to integrate into existing fleets. The 747-400ER has an increased takeoff weight of 910,000 pounds (412,770 kg). This takeoff weight increase of 35,000 pounds (15,876 kg) over existing 747-400s allows operators to fly about 410 nautical miles (760 km) farther or carry up to 15,000 pounds (6,800 kg) more payload, either in the form of extra cargo or a full load of 416 passengers.


I've never said chemtrails come from regular commercial craft. I've always stated from secret Area 51 type craft. Above is the link, and a little bit pasted of the characteristics of a 747-400.

*******Look at the operating weight*********** Considering SAPs, how can any debunker say what is inside of something potentially that large? THEY CANNOT!!!!!!!!!!!!
:lo



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 04:17 PM
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reply to post by sanchoearlyjones
 


JESUS H. CHRIST!, "sancho'!!!

Are you serious??

You find a YT video, of a NORMAL flight, and post it why???

DID YOU even LISTEN to the sound??

I did.

DO you know what I heard??

The video was being made by a FedEx pilot, from onboard his airplane.

Do you want to know how I know that?? BECAUSE I can HEAR them onthe radio, and understand what they're saying!!!!

The FedEx pilot prefaced his call sign with the word "lifeguard"....all that means is....they are carrying Human Organs onboard!!!! The "lifeguard" call is used to signify, to ATC, priority handling, when possible, because of the cargo.

(YOU fly a lot...stop by the cockpit as you board, and ask the pilots what the term "lifeguard" means, when they include it in their call sign....I dare you!!!) THEN, come back to ATS and explain it, OK????

The other part of the video is showing very normal contrails....and the airplanes are ALL separated by 1000 feet, vertically, which is standard in RVSM airspace, with RVSM certified airplanes....which includes jhsut about EVERY commercial passenger jet flying in the World today!!!!!!

ALSO....in the sound on the YT video, you hear the FedEx requesting a new altitude....know why????

It's because, jets are more efficient, fuel-burn-wise, at the highest altitude appropriate for its current gross weight. You see, as a flight progresses, fuel is burned off, and weight is decreased. Changing to a higher altitude, once the weight of the airplane is down to where it's more efficient to climb up, is a NORMAL request!!!! AND, will be approved if other conflicting traffic is not a factor!

Sheesh!!!!!!!!!

How many times do I have to give free Aviation lessons, here????



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by sanchoearlyjones
I've always stated from secret Area 51 type craft.


So with a very good pair of binoculars I can eventually spot a secret Area 51 type craft? Ooohhh....I'm all shivering with the prospects.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 04:26 PM
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reply to post by sanchoearlyjones
 


Id say this video was proof contrails were natural formation look where there coming from the engine. No sprayer but the engines so your own video disproved your own theory now thats kinda funny.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 04:28 PM
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reply to post by sanchoearlyjones
 


sancho,

Are you really getting THIS desperate????

Do you NOT realize how silly this latest post is, especially coming in light of the other one???

YOU ARE JUST not that well-read, when it comes to how airplanes are designed, are operated, and WHY there are many, many restrictions in place that make the idea of "chemtrails" completely ridiculous.

WHY did you preface that post with a comment about "not believing" commercial airplanes conduct "chemtrail" spraying, was it just some sort of wry sarcasm (oh....that's not only redundant....it also doesn't describe your post, because it presupposes some sort of cleverness.....)

THEN, you "find" information on the Boeing 747-400ER variation (you DO know what "ER" means, right???)

GOLD STAR (not light blue star) for continuing to attempt to muddy the waters, and make up BS....perhaps preparing a new "thread", hmmmmmmm????

Face it!!! You are failing, in this arena.

I suggest other "white whales" to hunt, and other "windmills" to tilt at.......because, you are very goods at the otehr topics I've seen you approach. [Kudos] BTW, that was {sarcasm}......in case you missed it.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 04:41 PM
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Yikes, like a pack of wolves on the hunt......, but I like wolves!

Okay, so ya'll attack the video. Fine, and thanks for the flying lingo WW. Still who in the arena of debunker's here can tell me that the chemtrail jets aren't coming from secured locations? A SAP is a never to be disclosed program; that point alone means that You cannot absolutely say what's going on.

Look at the loaded weight of the plane I listed; I'm sure other planes are used, but considering SAPs, and how BIG some of these jets are; It is IMPOSSIBLE for Anyone to say it's impossible.


ps, weedwhacker thanks for comparing me to Jesus H. Christ. I do try to keep the walking on water to a minimum


[edit on 22-8-2009 by sanchoearlyjones]



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by Udontknowme
Wait, that would make you a "useless eater"


Beats, by a long shot, being a "useless Internet forum poster". But that's your choice.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 04:57 PM
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Originally posted by Udontknowme
If found a post in a forum that said they did a google search on the word "chemtrail" in Oct, 2005,and the result was 280,000 hits


And if you do a google search today for 'fairies' you get 1,660,000 hits .......

Which proves?

Besides which, contrails produces 449,000 hits.

So what?



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by sanchoearlyjones

I've never said chemtrails come from regular commercial craft. I've always stated from secret Area 51 type craft.


There must be thousands of such aircraft then. Or do they specifically target a small part of England?



Or are these not chemtrails? In which case can someone show a picture of real chemtrail?



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 05:07 PM
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reply to post by Essan
 


I said Area 51 *********type of installation********** I do believe those are chemtrails in Your photo, and I do believe there are numerous planes spraying them.


Debunkers, You cannot disprove that secret installations which have private contractors on them aren't fitting airplanes for spraying.

Half of a SAP's budget, or ****more***** is spent on disinformation. They are never accountable to govt.

Show me how without childish argument how a private contractor operating through a SAP on a secured location could get caught rigging a plane for spraying icky stuff in the atmosphere? There's no argument, they never could.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 05:17 PM
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reply to post by sanchoearlyjones
 


Good to see your input in this thread sanchoearlyjones.

You can really get em' riled up.

Has everyone heard of project SUCCESS?
SUbsonic Contrails and Clouds Effects Special Study

The purpose of this experiment paid for by taxpayers was to;



The goal of obtaining new Near Field data was clearly met and exceeded. Both gas and particle data were obtained from very close to the engine (< 50m) to far from the aircraft (>10 km) for a variety of aircraft. Data were obtained in persistent and not- persistent contrails, in exhaust which did not form a contrail, at a variety of altitudes and for fuels with a large range of sulfur contents. Unique data on concentrations of sulfur, nitrogen, and odd- hydrogen species, as well as on particles were obtained. Numerous emission indices were determined for a variety of aircraft and flight conditions.

eosweb.larc.nasa.gov...

I have emailed them requesting a data set. We'll see what I get.





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