Chemtrail Debunkers are Losing., page 1

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Topic started on 22-8-2009 @ 08:43 AM by Udontknowme

If found a post in a forum that said they did a google search on the word "chemtrail" in Oct, 2005,and the result was 280,000 hits (source
and a current search (Aug, 2009) returns a result of 655,000
www.google.com...

Now, ask yourselves, are all those people crazy, and making things up, or is is a subject worthy of a true scientific investigation.

Where are the air (honest) samples of a persistent contrail?

The process of electrostatic precipitation has been used to examine atmospheric samples in Santa Fe NM for particulate matter. The method used to establish the results presented herein are described on the page Electrostatic Precipitation Method Developed. During this investigation, it has been revealed that the atmosphere does contain inordinate biological components, which are by the the best visual analysis currently available, red blood cells.

www.carnicom.com...

That was from a chemtrail believer. But finding honest samples from scientists, is nearly impossible. They have samples, that have particulate reading, but they never say what the particulates actually are. Why?? Aren't the taxpayers paying for these "experiments"??

At the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the U.S. government is lobbying for "geoengineering" activities such as deliberately polluting the stratosphere to deflect sunlight and lower temperatures. At least nine national governments and the European Union (EU) have supported experiments to spread iron filings on the ocean surface to nurture plankton and sequester carbon dioxide. At least a dozen additional countries are involved in the modification of stratospheric weather. Commercial carbon traders are engaging in ocean fertilization as well. This experimentation by governments and corporations is taking place in the absence of public discussion.

(bold added)
www.fpif.org...

Now, the debunker will tell you it's just water vapor.

The water vapor in the exhaust must have something to condense on, in order to freeze into the contrail that we see. Burning Jet A releases alot of large particles, the "anchoring" mechanism for water to condense and freeze on. This is actually at the point of debate at the moment, if you can recall the experiment following 9/11 with contrails and air temperature.

www.airliners.net...

And a almost honest assesment from Swedish scientists suggest that there may be extra metallic particulates being injected into contrails, forming chemtrails.

Aircraft sampling of residual particles from evaporated ice crystals was performed using a Counterflow Virtual Impactor. Samples of crystals taken in both contrails and cirrus clouds were compared with interstitial aerosols found in natural cirrus. The samples were analyzed with a scanning electron microscope which was equipped with a windowless energy-dispersive X-ray detector (SEM/EDX). In the contrail and cirrus cases black carbon (BC) particles dominated the residual size spectra for particles smaller than 1 μm. The coarse residual particle mode (Dp≥1.5 μm) in contrails consisted almost completely of mechanically generated metallic particles which contributed only about 1% to residual particle number but approximately 50% to residual particle volume.

sciencedirect.com

The above tells us that a small amount of metallic particles are being "mechanically generated, but it is expanding to take up 50% of the volume. What metal expands like this when vaporized and would be useful in weather manipulation??

Silver Iodide.

www.google.com...

[mod edit: fixed long link skewing page]

[edit on 22-8-2009 by 12m8keall2c]

reply posted on 22-8-2009 @ 08:49 AM by cranberrydork

Actually, chemtrail debunkers are gaining......they're gaining the time to indulge in activities that are actually worthwhile and useful.

reply posted on 22-8-2009 @ 08:53 AM by Udontknowme

Originally posted by cranberrydork
Actually, chemtrail debunkers are gaining......they're gaining the time to indulge in activities that are actually worthwhile and useful.

Is that what you call your reply? Worthwhile and useful? When someone in your family suddenly gets cancer, alzheimers, bone problems, lung disease, swine flu, don't worry, you were doing something useful by ignoring the air that you breath.

Wait, that would make you a "useless eater"

[edit on 22-8-2009 by Udontknowme]

reply posted on 22-8-2009 @ 09:56 AM by Darkice19

I wish people would get off this chemtrail kick. I have an A&P and worked on several different models of aircraft and nowhere on the plane is enough storage space to carry the materials needed to make a chemtrail completely across the horizon. Contrails are a Phenomenon caused by the engine exhaust.
While following other jets in formation you can clearly see the contrails forming behind the engines and I know for a FACT there they’re are NO other particles being pumped into the engine.
And then you hear people talking about "They put the chemicals in the fuel".
You right they do put chemicals in the full. It’s called additives and they put it in all Fuel.

If you’re so dead set on your beliefs about chemtrails go research it yourself instead of sitting here talking out your rear end about things you know nothing about.

reply posted on 22-8-2009 @ 10:08 AM by jkrog08

Silver Iodide.

That is a common chemical used for cloud seeding, there is no secret in that. We know cloud seeding, a type of weather modification, happens.

The most common chemicals used for cloud seeding include silver iodide and dry ice (frozen carbon dioxide). The expansion of liquid propane into a gas has also been used and can produce ice crystals at warmer temperatures than silver iodide. The use of hygroscopic materials, such as salt, is increasing in popularity because of some promising research results.

en.wikipedia.org...

Some more information....

In the United States, cloud seeding is used to increase precipitation in areas experiencing drought, to reduce the size of hailstones that form in thunderstorms, and to reduce the amount of fog in and around airports. Cloud seeding is also occasionally used by major ski resorts to induce snowfall. Eleven western states and one Canadian province (Alberta) have ongoing weather modification operational programs [5]. In January 2006, an $8.8 million cloud seeding project began in Wyoming to examine the effects of cloud seeding on snowfall over Wyoming's Medicine Bow, Sierra Madre, and Wind River mountain ranges. [6]

A number of commercial companies, such as Aero Systems Incorporated [7], Atmospherics Incorporated [8], North American Weather Consultants [9], Weather Modification Incorporated [10], Weather Enhancement Technologies International [11], Seeding Operations and Atmospheric Research (SOAR) [12], offer weather modification services centered on cloud seeding. The USAF proposed its use on the battlefield in 1996, although the U.S. signed an international treaty in 1978 banning the use of weather modification for hostile purposes.

en.wikipedia.org...

Is it possible the government is doing a little more weather modification and not telling the public? Of course, but I really do not think any of the other 'chemtrail' theories are nothing but scare tactics, maybe created by eco-friendly groups who disagreed with the use of silver iodide.

reply posted on 22-8-2009 @ 10:10 AM by C-JEAN

reply to post by Udontknowme

Hi, Udontknowme.

Good statistics. B-)

Also, don't forget that one:

. Extensive WELL done report !
www.chemtrailcentral.com...
. Go 3/4 down the page and see the graph with 4 pink dots !
How bizarre/convenient!: "the unregistered" planes do the chemtrails ! B-)

. And see that one, NOT debunked:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
. You will see a nice bunch of totaly ridiculous debunk-arguments,
for an event, being quite the usual "secret experiments" !

Blue skies.

reply posted on 22-8-2009 @ 10:16 AM by GenRadek

The only observable reason for all those chemtrail hits on google is because certain people just copy and paste the same nonsense off one site and move onto another. Just because there are more hits for it means absolutely nothing. Just one parrot parroting the same junk as the next one.

reply posted on 22-8-2009 @ 10:31 AM by Udontknowme

Originally posted by Darkice19
I wish people would get off this chemtrail kick. I have an A&P and worked on several different models of aircraft and nowhere on the plane is enough storage space to carry the materials needed to make a chemtrail completely across the horizon. Contrails are a Phenomenon caused by the engine exhaust.
While following other jets in formation you can clearly see the contrails forming behind the engines and I know for a FACT there they’re are NO other particles being pumped into the engine.
And then you hear people talking about "They put the chemicals in the fuel".
You right they do put chemicals in the full. It’s called additives and they put it in all Fuel.

If you’re so dead set on your beliefs about chemtrails go research it yourself instead of sitting here talking out your rear end about things you know nothing about.

I wish people would wake up and notice the hazy skies, dying birds, bees, trees, bizarre weather, dead fish, beaching whales and dolphins, and people getting 2 and 3 chronic diseases with no cure, no cause known.

What will it take for people to wake up to aircraft are severely polluting our skies. I would behoove us to know how much, so that we may stop it.

Cloud seeding is shown to be done on smaller, experimental levels, so why would it be so hard to believe that the commercial airliners are being paid to aid water boards to create more waterfall in river basins, etc.

That is what they are being told, but many people know the real reason is a culling of the population, soaking up savings and assets through the medical industry. Why do you think there is such and uproar against nationalized health.

The docs are making bank. The medical industry is hiring, cause people are sick, and going to get sicker. Mark my words.

reply posted on 22-8-2009 @ 10:57 AM by Brother Stormhammer

A few questions, if I might?

Regarding the air samples that were tested and reported on by the Carnicom website linked in the original post, where were they collected, and at what altitude? If they were collected at ground level, isn't there a distinct possibility that some or all of the 'unusual material' found in the sample might have its origins at street level, rather than in the upper atmosphere? To be more plain-spoken, how can we tell if the material came from an aircraft, or from a passing vehicle, or from industrial pollution?

For that matter, how can we tell whether or not the samples are being contaminated by the electrostatic precipitation device?

I also can't help but notice that the same objects described as 'dessicated red blood cells' in the upper photographs bear a more-than-passing resemblance to the photographs of juniper pollen elsewhere on the same site.

reply posted on 22-8-2009 @ 11:46 AM by Udontknowme

reply to post by C-JEAN

Thanks C-JEAN. I've seen your efforts in keeping the Chemtrail subject in the forefront, and people will look back and thank those that came forward when the truth was unpopular.

reply posted on 22-8-2009 @ 11:53 AM by Udontknowme

reply to post by Brother Stormhammer

The author states, "atmospheric samples in Santa Fe, New Mexico."

Why does it matter? An atmospheric sample of any kind, any where, showing biological and non-biological pollution should be studied further, especially this day and age.

What do you have to say about the Swedish article pointing to metallic particulate being 50% of volume? You didn't question where or at what
altitude they were sampling.

reply posted on 22-8-2009 @ 12:11 PM by weedwhacker

reply to post by Udontknowme

I am happy to see that you think the report offered by C-JEAN is such a solid 'evidence' of "chemtrails".

It is, in fact, merely a great confirmation of CONTRAILS!

Note, please, in this 'study' performed nearly a decade ago, that they accurately recognize, and describe, contrails (when their observations weren't obstructed by weather conditions that limited their visibility, such as overcast days).

They extensively monitored, and recorded, as much regularly scheduled commercial high altitude jet traffic that they could get information about.

HOWEVER, they used a web program known as "Flight Explorer" to collect their air traffic data. "Flight Explorer" is a proprietary program, catering in the realm where it was accessed in this "study", to the casual layman wishing to track commercial airline flights. The program uses a combination of, in part, AIRINC and ACARS information, from the various airline, and in some cases, FAA sources, that compile all of that data into a searchable "real-time" database.

"Flight Explorer" does not include OTHER flights, including private business jets, nor does it include Military operations.

"Flight Aware" (Google 'FlightTracker', takes you there...) is a far better source for ALL FAA recorded IFR flights ('IFR' is an acronym for 'Instrument Flight Rules', and in US Airspace, ALL flights above 18,000 feet -- FL180 -- are required to be in 'positive control' on IFR flight plans, INCLUDING Military flights, when they operate outside of Military-controlled exclusionary airspace sectors).

SO....the problem with this study that is championed by C-JEAN repeatedly is, when it tries to show "suspicious" activity, it A) doesn't have ALL the possible private jet traffic information, and B) doesn't include possible Military Ops, either. Air Force tankers re-fuel, in regualr airspace...I know, because on numerous occasions, while flying normal passenger jets, I have been advised of traffic, as we fly along (this is a typical ATC advisory, to alert pilots of other air traffic in their vicinity) and usually, the controller thinks it's fun to give us a heads up, so we can see it in action! It's not secret (if it was secret, they'd do it somewhere else).

Despite all of the factual information I try to provide, consider this:

(And look for the illogic...)
When you read all of those "chemtrail" sites, they try to infer that it's happening EVERYWHERE!!!! Yet, even in the 'study' done by what C-JEAN linked, it seems to be the exception, rather than the norm!!!

Yet, the "chemtrail" Chicken Littles of the Interwebs wish you to think that they ARE EVERYWHERE!!!!

They cannot have it both ways.....

"Chemtrails", their proponents, and the hysteria surrounding this non-existent "threat", are serving to diminish the understanding of actual science, and instead seem to be attempting to fling us back to an era when Humans dismissed science, or hadn't learned science yet, or just found it simpler to believe in some supernatural explanation, rather than actually examining the basis of their misconceptions in the first place.
_____________________________________________________________
(spelling, added text)

[edit on 22 August 2009 by weedwhacker]

reply posted on 22-8-2009 @ 12:19 PM by Udontknowme

reply to post by weedwhacker

weedwhacker, your report holds no credibility to me. Your vehement defense and dis-info campaign is treasonous, in my opinion.

Your case is full of holes, and reeks of government cover-up.

But you do serve a purpose, and that is to keep threads like this alive.

But don't say I didn't tell you so, when we meet in the future.

reply posted on 22-8-2009 @ 12:29 PM by weedwhacker

reply to post by Udontknowme

weedwhacker, your report holds no credibility to me.

"report"?

No, I didn't provide any 'report'. I described, based on experience and knowledge, a way for people to see the "chemtrail" issue for what it truly is.

It is a compilation of dis-connected stories, opinions, and claims. ALL in an attempt to influence those who don't know any better, into believing some 'GRAND CONSPIRACY' that doesn't actually exist.

There are plenty of actual conspiracies out there....this nonsense detracts and distracts from the rest. MAYBE that is the intent???

AND, everyone who starts a "chemtrails" thread, or who promotes or authors a "chemtrail" website, ALL OF THEM!!! are in on the 'conspiracy' to get people looking the wrong way, so they can pull something else off.

Called "misdirection". Yup! That's it!! It's a conspiracy of bad chemtrail information, as a diversion!!!

See? How easy it is?? THAT is the problem with so-called 'conspiracies'. They are too easy to start, nowadays.

They PREY on the uninformed, uneducated, inexperienced and in some cases, weak minded.

reply posted on 22-8-2009 @ 12:36 PM by weedwhacker

reply to post by Udontknowme

On second reading,

But you do serve a purpose, and that is to keep threads like this alive.

Oh, I think that many of us see a better purpose....it is to DEFLECT people from otherwise very bad "science", and illogical conclusions spouted by people with agendas.

But don't say I didn't tell you so, when we meet in the future.

Hah!!! See? YOUR agenda, although cleverly masked in this post, still eveident in many of your others.

For those of you not following, ATS user Udontknowme is a rather, at times, un-subtle Christian (or something??) proseltyzer. For some reason, the "chemtrails" hysteria, and the phenomenom of this 'belief' in such nonsense, plays well into the OP's scheme, and opinion, of some sort of magical religious fairy-tale scenario.

It is quite clear, and is well beneath your dignity, in my opinion.

It disgusts me, when someone attempts recruitment under false pretenses.

reply posted on 22-8-2009 @ 12:40 PM by Amaterasu

Back when I was younger (1960's, 70's, maybe 80's), the sky was blue. REALLY blue. Nearly all the time.

Now it is a steel-blue. Nearly all the time. To the people that don't believe that someone has done something in our skies... How do you explain this color difference? (After a good rain, sometimes I see a hint of that blue I used to know. But then a grid appears and the steel aspect returns.)

I am of the opinion that, regardless of what commercial and private planes may or may not be carrying, SOME planes (unregistered) ARE spraying something to our detriment.

reply posted on 22-8-2009 @ 12:51 PM by Darkice19

I was thinking about the metallic particles in the atmosphere. One Volcano can spew forth more chemicals and materials then humans ever could. Have you noticed that the entire ring of fire has been active for the last several years? Just because there is debris in the air does not mean we put it all there. Yes we do account for a small fraction of the pollution but just a small part.

It’s a proven fact that the earth has gone through many temperature, atmospheric changes in its lifetime. When the dinosaurs walked the earth the oxygen levels were like 42%. What are we at now like 19% . Did humans cause this? I doubt it.

reply posted on 22-8-2009 @ 01:00 PM by dodadoom

Is it any wonder we are skeptical?
I mean, do we need to show proof of past coverups and lies?(INL,DOE)
What difference does it make whats in "them"?
Chemicals bad, fresh air good. Get it?
How do we really know either way, huh?
Some dude on here tells us?

Doesnt hurt to look does it? Or does it?
Maybe its all too big and scary and stuff.

Star and flag for spelling it right OP!
You've made my friends list for that.

Wow, what a surprise weedwhacker shows up to call you names!

He made the first place in my gubmint paid shill list from day one.
Good luck. Keep breathing in like WW.
Sorry weed, tired of you putting people down for asking questions.
That was rude besides.
Not everything is all hunky dory man.
I know that for a fact! (I live here)

Speaking of agendas

[edit on 22-8-2009 by dodadoom]

reply posted on 22-8-2009 @ 01:03 PM by weedwhacker

reply to post by Amaterasu

Back when I was younger (1960's, 70's, maybe 80's), the sky was blue. REALLY blue. Nearly all the time.

Amaterasu, I am a child of the 1960s and 1970s. The color of the sky looks no different to me.

I pay attention to the sky for a reason. I don't presume to know YOUR personal perceptions, and experiences, but here are mine:

I started to learn to fly in about 1971. When I soloed, in 1974 ( on my Birthday! Because, in the US you have to be age 16 to solo...drat! I just dated myself!

) I had over 200 hours flight time, because I had to wiat for my age to catch up with me. Typically, students solo at less than ten hours.

Anyway, not to be my biography, but I can tell you that in the over 30 years of flying I have not seen any changes in the sky's color. Of course, I'd have noticed!

Nothing has changed, except in your case, perhaps perception???

Color of the sky will vary, quite naturally, to the Human eye depending on Relative Humidity (and along with temperature, they tie together), and altitude. AND clouds that may or may not be overhead.

Now it is a steel-blue. Nearly all the time. To the people that don't believe that someone has done something in our skies... How do you explain this color difference?

Since I've been seeing these "chemtrail" threads poppiing up, all over ATS, I have made it a point to pay closer attention to the skies. I see nothing that you are claiming.

Human perception....period. AND, maybe, "selective memory"????

reply posted on 22-8-2009 @ 01:14 PM by weedwhacker

reply to post by dodadoom

Chemicals bad, fresh air good. Get it?

"chemicals", such as di-hydrogen monoxide?

Yes, in very large quantities, di-hydrogen monoxide (written out as H2O) can be very injurious to Humans.

BUT, despite all of the actual, scientific evidence to the contrary, and despite the obvious, logical INFEASIBILITY of mass-scale "chemical" spraying on the populace, and the apparent inability and/or unwillingness to actually LEARN about meteorology, aviation, and other factual endeavours, it's FAR, FAR better to mindlessly obey and parrot some baloney from certain websites, when there is an avalanche of conficting information to refute those few....

Quite sad, really. Enjoy your delusions.

Efforts here, by sane individuals, are merely attempts to offer education, information, and, yes, LOGIC!

You all have brains -- I suggest you exercise them. BECAUSE, if any of us with rational viewpoints had any inkling that ANY of the "chemtrail" BS was even remotely true, we'd be the FIRST!!! to be making sure it stopped!!!

WE ARE NOT stupid!

I would ask the "chemtrail" website promoters, if THEY are!

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