A Message To Christians... A Message of Peace...

reply to post by open_eyeballs


Actually that is not the only qualification. You must also repent and turn away from your sins and keep the commandements that Jesus ordered all Christians to keep as best as possible and ask for forgiveness when you and if you fail at this and a few others like you must be saved by the spirit of Jesus and baptized depending on which particular sect you're talking about. However, the requirements change depending on the sect. However you can't just beat you wife all day and rape little children and call yourself a Christian because a Christian that had true faith in Jesus would also have faith that Jesus told him not to do those things.

What you speak of is how to be saved. All you have to do to be saved is believe in Jesus. After that though, there's some other stuff you have to do to STAY SAVED!

Keep trying to turn the religion around into something it's not just so you win the argument though. I mean, like I said, when you get to make the rules of course there's no way I can argue with you. You will always be right. So, if that's what you say then I guess you're right cause you get to make the ground rules for the argument.

[edit on 21-8-2009 by tinfoilman]

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by tinfoilman
reply to post by badmedia

 

Also, are you saying America is worse now than when we were in the great depression? Or are you not saying that? I can't tell if you agree or not?

Are you saying that our economic condition means we're in worse shape now?

Yes I agree with everything you say, but one. I do believe it is VERY bad. I just don't believe it's the WORST EVER!.

It's the same thing Jesus dealt with, back then they were called the "moneychangers". Although a bit different game, same function. Debt at interest is called "usury" in the bible, and is the way of thieves.

Yes, it is the same thing. The same as it has always been. And like always, every generation has thought that this was the end and that it had never been worse! But it has always been the same just as you say. It is not worse now. We're the same debt slaves to power that WE ALWAYS HAVE BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE until Christ returns.

But now, I have left over chicken.

[edit on 21-8-2009 by tinfoilman]

No church teaches that someone can just willfully keep doing wrong things because they are allegedly free to do so...

2 Peter 2:19 Although these false teachers promise such people freedom, they themselves are enslaved to immorality. For whatever a person succumbs to, to that he is enslaved. For if after they have escaped the filthy things of the world through the rich knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they again get entangled in them and succumb to them, their last state has become worse for them than their first.

For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than, having known it, to turn back from the holy commandment that had been delivered to them. They are illustrations of this true proverb: “A dog returns to its own vomit," and “A sow, after washing herself, wallows in the mire.”


[edit on 21-8-2009 by VinceP1974]

[edit on 21-8-2009 by VinceP1974]

[edit on 21-8-2009 by VinceP1974]

Originally posted by open_eyeballs
reply to post by tinfoilman

 

The only qualification one must have to be labeled a Christian is to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He died for your sins.

You can jump up and down and scream left and right about the atrocities different Christian sects have commited saying it is "un Christian" like. that doesnt change the fact they believe the ONE thing it takes to be Christian...

And this is exactly what I am talking about in regards to Christianity being Anti-Christ.

What does it mean to believe?

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Telling people that is all it's about is just a lie. Furthermore, while we are at it, let me debunk the "Jesus is the only way".

John 14: 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

He is telling you what he is and that by those things does one come by the father. Proof of this is found later in John 14.

John 14

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Meaning, it is available to anyone who seeks those things, regardless of religion.

John 14 is describing being born of the spirit.

And if it was true that you need only believe as advertised. Then why didn't Jesus tell the rich man that? Why did Jesus turn the rich man away telling him to give his riches to the poor? Maybe because what you are saying is a lie?

reply to post by VinceP1974


That's not exactly true as presented. If it was true, then explain David and the man he sends off to his death for war, and his forgiveness after.

David repents for his mistake, and is automatically forgiven, even though he was already righteous.

What it is talking about are the wicked. In order to blasphemy the holy spirit, one must first know the holy spirit and understand the truth. Then that person purposely tells lies to people for personal gain. Misleading them and so forth.

I don't remember the verses off hand, but in the bible it says that after all is said and done, that truth will come to everyone and most will accept it and so forth. Only the wicked would turn it away.

reply to post by tinfoilman

Actually that is not the only qualification. You must also repent and turn away from your sins and keep the commandements that Jesus ordered all Christians to keep as best as possible

Sure. I agree. But I believe that point is addressed with accepting Jesus Christ as your "savior." And how do you do such a thing? By acknowledging he is the Son of God. They are all sides of the same coin...

After all, why would anyone accpet jesus Christ as your sabior if you do not believe he is the Son of God?

Ask yourself who would acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and in doing so ask him to be your savior and then not pray for your sins to be forgiven? That doesnt make a lick of sense, does it?

However, the requirements change depending on the sect.

Im sorry, that is just not so. That is man made dogma. Arguments to the technicalities of different christian beliefs do not make or break the "Christian"...and that is why Catholics are most definitely considered Christians...

However you can't just beat you wife all day and rape little children and call yourself a Christian

Ahhh, yes... an excellent argument indeed...but you see, according to the Bible you may very well be welcomed through the Holy gates of Saint Peter even though you have committed atrocious acts...Remember the story of Jesus Christ on the cross?...The man to the right of Jesus... He lead a shallow life and committed murder...As the story goes... Solely based off his belief that Jesus was the Son of God and subsequent repentance to the Father he will be welcomed to the golden streets of heaven in the same manner Mother Teresa is...

Keep trying to turn the religion around into something it's not just so you win the argument though.

Im not trying to turn anything around guy. I am not anti Christian in the slightest. I am a realist though. And I do look at the whole picture. I believe overall Christianity is a fine religion. I have no qualms with it...Some of its follower though..well... they are another story.

You are trying to make the argument that if you are not "Christ"-like you are not Christian. Well..if that is the case..theres isnt a Christian walking around on this planet right now...not one.

Originally posted by badmedia
In John 14, he also defines what it means to "believe" in him, and that is nothing at all what Christians teach. Christianity as a whole teaches that all you need to do is believe he is god in the flesh and that he died for your sins and you are saved. Yet, that is quite the opposite of what Jesus actually taught. He said it is those who do as he says and follows him that are the true believers.

If I am understanding what you are saying correctly, yes and no. All that is required is belief and repentance, but works will follow if you are a true Christian. So while works are not a requirement, they are a sign of a true Christian. Works themselves get you nowhere, and Jesus was very critical of the hypocrites who did works to impress others and not out of a true Christian heart:

Matthew 6: 2-3
Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

Salvation is a gift granted through grace, no amount of works that you perform can repay a single sin that you commit:

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

Galatians 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.

So that is telling us that works are based on the “law” and as no man can keep the law, only by grace through faith can we imperfect beings receive salvation.

You might be interested to know that several of the early church fathers, such as Clement of Alexandria, were Universalists, and believed in the Apocalypse of Peter. According to that text, all men are eventually brought into salvation through grace, but God did not want that to be known because man would sin more egregiously then he already was.

Originally posted by badmedia
He also plays down the believing he is god in the flesh, and says if nothing else you can believe just for the works sake. Meaning, you can follow his example and keep the way even if you do not believe the rest - which means it should be a minimum.

The problem being that no man can keep the law perfectly as Christ did, making you again reliant on salvation through the Grace of God.

Originally posted by badmedia
Do we see 2.1 billion people acting like Jesus? No. I image if 2.1 billion people were acting like Jesus, that number would grow to a much bigger number, and only the truly wicked would not follow.

As I stated above, you are correct, there are many false Christians, or what we call lukewarm Christians. As you stated in your later post, this world belongs to Satan, should you expect it to be a good place?

Originally posted by badmedia
Which brings us to Paul. Is Paul not the one who does appeals to the Romans and with political appeal to authority and starts the RCC?

Irenaeus of Lyons was quoting the works of Paul as Christian texts as early as 180AD, long before the Great Schism created the Roman Catholic Church in 1054AD.

Originally posted by badmedia
And do not the branches carry those books of the bible and general sacrifice = life teachings, that says war is ok and so forth?

Even the Old Testament says that war is OK under the correct circumstances.

Originally posted by badmedia
If the RCC is the 1st beast as you say, then no doubt the protestants and the US is the 2nd, which comes from the sea(people).

Very adept, you are correct about the US, but not the Protestants per say.
The beasts of Daniel are: Babylon, Media/Persia, Greece, and Rome, each a world superpower of its time. The beasts in Revelations are Rome and the final superpower based on the Roman system (most likely the US). Nothing really there about the Protestants (other then some live in the US) and the RCC are involved as they are what is left of the Roman Empire (whether they realize it or not)… The beast that was, then was not, yet is (Rome, first as an empire, then as a religion).


[edit on 8/21/2009 by defcon5]

reply to post by badmedia

Maybe because what you are saying is a lie?

First, you must understand this is not what I "believe"..I dont believe Jesus Chtrist was in fact the "Son of God." Sorry!

I dont have any problems with those that do though...

But I all through my education I was indoctrinated to the Christian beliefs. Not only through non-denominational Christian schools, but through devout Catholic ones as well.

My understanding (in my opinion) of Christianity is well rounded and not one based off bias. The things I was taught stayed consistant all throughout my youth, and are basic Christian beliefs. So if you would like to argue my beliefs of the bases common interpretations of Christianity you must first argue with the millions who believe and teach such things...

Okey dokey?

reply to post by Odessy


Preach the good news, of the coming of the kingdom of god,
feed the hungry, clothe the poor, love god and thy neighbor, don't cast your pearls before swine, and wipe the dust off your feet.

GWT© "The human mind is the most deceitful of all things. It is incurable. No one can understand how deceitful it is.
KJV The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Spread The good news of the Kingdom of God, however

The Kingdom is outside of the control of human beings;

The kingdom comes in stages,

The kingdom began on earth, but has continually met with opposition or evil forces, a battle of good verses evil.

"The Kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, 'Lo, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold,

the Kingdom of God is in the midst of you."

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by VinceP1974

 

That's not exactly true as presented. If it was true, then explain David and the man he sends off to his death for war, and his forgiveness after.

Well clearly you have trouble understanding the difference between infrequent yet profound moral failing and habitual disobedience.

But that's the distinction. I fail to see what is so difficult to understand.

Originally posted by defcon5

The beasts of Daniel are: Babylon, Media/Persia, Greece, and Rome, each a world superpower of its time. The beasts in Revelations are Rome and the final superpower based on the Roman system (most likely the US). Nothing really there about the Protestants (other then some live in the US) and the RCC are involved as they are what is left of the Roman Empire (whether they realize it or not)… The beast that was, then was not, yet is (Rome, first as an empire, then as a religion).


[edit on 8/21/2009 by defcon5]

I respectfully disagree with your very traditional (and the one I used to adopt) interpretation.

I believe the beasts are Babylon, Persia, Greece and Islamic Caliphate.

I explain myself here

Islam is the End Time Empire

reply to post by Odessy

The obvious conclusion I've come up with, is that the more Christians there are in the world... (flame time)... the worse off we've become...

Never have there been more christians than there are today, and never has the world been in such a mess (thats we know of).

I think there has been a great falling away from the truth, which began with the ascension of Christ,

So you think this is the worse time in history,

Then you are seeing prophecy fulfilled.

reply to post by Stormdancer777

So you think this is the worse time in history,

Then you are seeing prophecy fulfilled.

Worst is subjective.

And

History is subject to interpretation.

I would say we arent even close to the "worse time in history"...

In fact I would say most knowledgeable people would agree the current state of world affairs has never been better or more equal in all of history...

[edit on 22-8-2009 by open_eyeballs]

reply to post by defcon5


And just like a normal Christian, you quote mostly Paul to me. Because that is who Christians follow, Paul. Who is the false prophet, 2nd shepherd who is warned about.

Paul, who makes up nearly half the NT, while never actually having known Jesus. In fact, only quotes Jesus like 1 time. Paul, who's story in acts changes 3 times. Paul, who writes a book that appeals to the powers of the time, Romans.

Paul, who promises a "free gift", yet the gift in reality costs so much that even the rich man is unable to obtain it, with Jesus saying it is easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle than a rich man in heaven. I guess I am to believe Jesus walked away laughing saying "What a fool, all he has to do is wait until I am dead, and believe in me". I doubt it.

Paul, who tells people he is their father and that maybe they can be adopted someday, rather than Jesus who says call no man your father, because the only true father is in heaven.

Paul, who says there are countless teachers in Christ, verses Jesus, who says there is but one true teacher.

Paul, who says there are authorities in Christ, verses Jesus, who says you can not serve 2 masters, and that there is only 1 true authority.

Paul, whom the disciples are skeptical of, and even calls Peter a hypocrite.

Needing Paul for half the bible, pretty much says that Jesus alone isn't enough, you can't follow Jesus or take Jesus for what he says - despite the fact he speaks in parables to give understanding, you need Paul to show the correct way to interpret them.

Paul does the exact same things politicians do. I noticed it first in politics, 2nd in religion and specifically Paul. He praises Jesus over and over, carries on with the symbolism and so forth. No different than a politician praising the flag, wearing the flag pin. But then, goes forth and teaches people contrary to the path. To the path of death and destruction. Even promises false gifts the same as politicians do.

Paul wouldn't know the first thing about being born of the spirit, which he demonstrates over and over in the things he says.

I'll be happy to quote verses for you to back each of these contradictions. This is why I am not a Christian. Paul flips it upside down, to being all about the death of truth, rather than living in the truth. No wonder Paul "dies everyday".

What you talk about with Jesus is talking about the left and right hands I mentioned earlier. Where people do things to be seen as "good" in the eyes of men, but in the darkness they do other things.

As for war, what leader doesn't first weigh the odds of the battle before entering it? If they can't win, they instead compromise and try to bring about peace. So, when they go to war it's because they hold the greater evil. Because that is all it is, evil fighting evil and the greater evil wins.

I look at the fruits, and the only fruits I see are death and destruction. No thanks. If that is what "Jesus" is about, then he did nothing but lie while on the earth, and as I recognize the father within him, I don't think he is the liar.

reply to post by open_eyeballs


I believe we're right on the edge of rise of the Islam Caliphate and Wars of Brutality like no other.

And that because there are so many pussified people now, we will be handicapped and lose.

When people become moral cowards and hide from their obligation of defeating evil in the world (i'm talking on a national scale, not a vigilantee lone-wacko lawless scale) then it seems like when the inevitable war does finally come , only this time the cost is several times higher

The Iraq war has been very expensive... it being delayed by about 12 years, but it was still cheaper than a future war with a nuclear Saddam.

Originally posted by open_eyeballs
reply to post by badmedia

 

Maybe because what you are saying is a lie?

First, you must understand this is not what I "believe"..I dont believe Jesus Chtrist was in fact the "Son of God." Sorry!

I dont have any problems with those that do though...

But I all through my education I was indoctrinated to the Christian beliefs. Not only through non-denominational Christian schools, but through devout Catholic ones as well.

My understanding (in my opinion) of Christianity is well rounded and not one based off bias. The things I was taught stayed consistant all throughout my youth, and are basic Christian beliefs. So if you would like to argue my beliefs of the bases common interpretations of Christianity you must first argue with the millions who believe and teach such things...

Okey dokey?

There is but 1 right answer. I learned from the father and the holy spirit, not from men, not from the bible, and not from preachers.

None of the sources you mention are legit.

Do you think the bible is just kidding in Proverbs 8 when it talks about those who find the father? Do you think it is kidding when it says he will fill their treasures with wisdom and understanding - that which is considered rich in the eyes of god?

Do you think Jesus is kidding when he speaks of the holy spirit who will bring understanding in John 14?

All you have done is accepted the wicked, and because of that you will not understanding and you will walk in darkness. Because all the foundations of earth are out of course.

Pslam 82

1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

reply to post by badmedia


My God.. existence must be such a chore for you.

You have to love how you're the product of the most humane, wealthy , advanced civilization ever, a lot of it due to Christianity and yet you you (while conveniently saying nothing about what you do actually believe in... so you're basically a talent-less critic) call it evil.

I dont think your moral compass is worth paying any attention to.

Originally posted by open_eyeballs
reply to post by tinfoilman

 

Actually that is not the only qualification. You must also repent and turn away from your sins and keep the commandements that Jesus ordered all Christians to keep as best as possible

Sure. I agree. But I believe that point is addressed with accepting Jesus Christ as your "savior." And how do you do such a thing? By acknowledging he is the Son of God. They are all sides of the same coin...

After all, why would anyone accpet jesus Christ as your sabior if you do not believe he is the Son of God?

Ask yourself who would acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and in doing so ask him to be your savior and then not pray for your sins to be forgiven? That doesnt make a lick of sense, does it?

Nope, sure doesn't, but I was talking after you've been saved and sin again.

However, the requirements change depending on the sect.

Im sorry, that is just not so. That is man made dogma. Arguments to the technicalities of different christian beliefs do not make or break the "Christian"...and that is why Catholics are most definitely considered Christians...

Like I said, as long as you're making the rules I can never win this argument. But I have to warn you, that your argument basically amounts to this. They're Christians because you say so? Not a very convincing argument. That's all I'm saying.

However you can't just beat you wife all day and rape little children and call yourself a Christian

Ahhh, yes... an excellent argument indeed...but you see, according to the Bible you may very well be welcomed through the Holy gates of Saint Peter even though you have committed atrocious acts...

Keyword being have committed atrocious acts. You're not going to get in while you're still living in sin and committing atrocious acts that you are not repenting for. Nice try though. Do you think a works based system would be better where as long as you've done one more good work than bad works you get into Heaven? Would that be a better system? Wouldn't that system let me kill 100 people and still get in as long as I saved 101?

Keep trying to turn the religion around into something it's not just so you win the argument though.

I have no qualms with it...Some of its follower though..well... they are another story.

That's what I've been trying to tell you the whole friggin time!

Well..if that is the case..theres isnt a Christian walking around on this planet right now...not one.

And yet we still get blamed for everything even though we don't exist? Awesome. No one is like Christ. That's probably one of the reasons he's called THE Christ. If I had 100 Christs I would just send you one, but I dont' have any extra Christs. The idea is just to try and be Christ like as best you can.

However you're not using the word Christian as a religion. You're just using it as a category to group other religions into. That means you're using the same word to describe two different things. According to your argument, Christianity isn't actually a religion at all.

It would be an arbitrarily selected category on a chart and not a religion. You could have grouped the chart differently and put Islam, Catholics, and all other Christians into the same section and called them Abrahamic religions, but the category itself would not all of a sudden become a new religion like you suggest.

It would just be these religions here all fit under this category, but they are all different religions. Well, it's the same thing. Catholicism and all other Christian faiths may fall under the "Christian" category, but they're still all each their own separate religions and therefore should be broken down into their separate parts. And the category of "Christian" would no longer be a religion and instead simply be a method of grouping various religions, but would not be a religion in and of itself.

Just like if I had a pie chart of cars and grouped all sports cars into one "category" called sports cars. All the cars would be cars, but the category of "sports cars" wouldn't itself be a car. It would just be a category on a chart. Just like you're saying Christianity is now. Therefore Christianity itself is not a religion as you say. It's simply a grouping of other religions on a chart, but that does not make it a religion itself. It just makes it a category that Catholicism is contained inside of, but that is not equal to the greater category.

Believing in Jesus isn't a religion. It's just you believe in Jesus. Which religion you belong to is another story is what you're saying?

But the real question from the very start is, is the world the worst it's ever been because most people are Christian? Well that's just absurd. Even though it may be the "biggest" religion, even though it is not actually a religion at all according to your logic, it's just a simple grouping OF other religions, well look at the chart. Most people aren't Christians.


[edit on 22-8-2009 by tinfoilman]

reply to post by VinceP1974

I believe we're right on the edge of rise of the Islam Caliphate and Wars of Brutality like no other.

Apparently this has been the common thinking for the past...500 years? Yet, nothing...

And that because there are so many pussified people now, we will be handicapped and lose.

..you sound like me...or maybe..I soun dlike you...

When people become moral cowards and hide from their obligation of defeating evil in the world (i'm talking on a national scale, not a vigilantee lone-wacko lawless scale)

Sure...except it isn not the obligation of people from the outside of nations to look in and say: "Hey! Your evil! We must bring you to your death!"

It will never work in the real world that way. And the times it has been attempted ended up bad for the outsiders...everytime.

then it seems like when the inevitable war does finally come , only this time the cost is several times higher

Ahh, but in todays time, war is very much a non- necessity. Im not saying there wont be times where war is inevitabele and quite necessary in the future, but that time is a ways off. In my opinion not until resources become very rare and unsustainable. that is when we will see the WWIII that everyone like to talk about and hope for...

The Iraq war has been very expensive... it being delayed by about 12 years, but it was still cheaper than a future war with a nuclear Saddam.

Ayeayay!....ill leave that argument for another time...

Originally posted by VinceP1974

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by VinceP1974

 

That's not exactly true as presented. If it was true, then explain David and the man he sends off to his death for war, and his forgiveness after.

Well clearly you have trouble understanding the difference between infrequent yet profound moral failing and habitual disobedience.

But that's the distinction. I fail to see what is so difficult to understand.

As I said, the verses were talking about the wicked, not just general people. Because one my first understand things before they can fix their mistakes.

Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

If you go applying that stuff to everyone, then you are saying they should never hope to have understanding.