Hitler was a Godsend for Israel...

reply to post by mattpryor

You'll find that a lot of Jews are also apposed to Zionism...

True Torah Jews is dedicated to informing the world and in particular the American public and politicians that all Jews do not support the ideology of the Zionist state called "Israel" which is diametrically opposite to the teachings of traditional Judaism.

We are concerned that the widespread misconception that all Jews support the zionist state and its actions endangers Jews worldwide.

We are NOT politically motivated. We are motivated by our concern for the peace and safety of all people throughout the world including those living in the Zionist state. We support and pray for peace for the people of the Zionist state but have no interest in and do not support the Zionist government.

Jews Against Zionism

Originally posted by undermind

Hating on them has been the biggest rip-off in both this and the last century.

Just looked at Google Map of Israel.

That's one small country dude, and lookin over it, I'd have to say

Well done. Good agrcultural set up. Great work, Jewish people.

Here is a beautiful map resource:
www.mapsofwar.com

www.mapsofwar.com...
www.mapsofwar.com...



[edit on 19-8-2009 by JJay55]

Originally posted by JJay55

Originally posted by centurion1211
Mods:

Best (worst?) example of a trolling thread I've seen in quite some time ...

Yep!
Racism against Jews.
Where's the mods?

its a religion not a race,

reply to post by Neo-V™


People keep posting this map, and I keep saying the same thing: It's down-right disingenuous, it's a gross distortion of history and it's just plain wrong.

Once again I'll explain why.

In 1946 there was no such country as Israel. There was the British Mandate of Palestine, which comprised of all of modern day Israel and the disputed territories, as well as modern day Jordan. It was governed by the British, who had been tasked with the job by the UN - not the Arabs, not the Jews. Most of the green bits in the first map were uninhabited.

The UN partition plan, which you have accurately depicted in the second map, never came into being. The Yishuv agreed to it, in the (somewhat naive) hope that given time and peace borders would no longer be an issue between friendly nations. The surrounding Arab countries (Syria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia) rejected it and voted against UN resolution 181 along with Afghanistan, Cuba, Greece, India, Pakistan, Yemen and Turkey. Those same surrounding countries then launched a war against Israel to try to destroy the Jewish state. They failed.

So the second map is all it is and all it ever was - a map. Not a reality.

Third map - 1949-1967. This was during the period between the war of independence and the six day war. The green bits you've labelled "Palestinian" weren't Palestinian at all - they were occupied by Egypt (in the case of Gaza) and Jordan (in the case of Judea/Samaria).

Maybe you're getting confused between "Palestinian land" and land that Jews had been forcibly expelled from by the Jordanian and Egyptian invaders?

For someone who claims to support Israel's right to exist you sure seem to be doing a fine job in assisting those that seek it's destruction by circulating their propaganda.

reply to post by Neo-V™



The source for US military aid to Israel during Fiscal Year 2009 is the Congressional Research Service’s “U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel,” written by Jeremy M. Sharp, Specialist in Middle Eastern Affairs, updated February 3, 2009. According to this report, by early February 2009, the US had already given Israel at least $2.55 billion ($2,500,000,000) in military aid for Fiscal Year 2009.

thanks for clearing that up for me: now i really want to see a return on the united states money!! wow 2.5 billion MY GOD

reply to post by tatersalad


The return you get for your money is peace and stability in the Middle East, cheap oil, and the warm feeling you get that your $8.33 per capita per annum helps to defend a modern, free, liberal society in one of the most barbaric and violent places on Earth.

Incidentally it's interesting that you complain about this amount to Israel but you seem okay with the fact that your government spends $2 billion per year on military aid to Egypt, which is a military dictatorship. Yep, $50 billion so far. That okay with you?

reply to post by mattpryor


cheap oil? since when does israel supply oil to anyone? they dont - and the USA buys oil at the OPEC price

reply to post by Harlequin


And what keeps OPEC prices low? Do you think it's good will from all those people that burn American flags and call you the Great Satan?

What do you think would happen to those OPEC prices if, say, Egypt decided to blockade the Suez Canal? Or Syria decided to blow up the petrol refineries and pipelines, just because they can and they know you'll pay?

reply to post by mattpryor

Perhaps you could provide a map that outlines Israels borders, to clear up any confusion you think I may have?

reply to post by Neo-V™


With pleasure, although I won't simplify history with a few maps I'll just share with you what I know and link some maps along the way, how does that sound?

Here's what the British Mandate of Palestine looked like.

All the rest of the territory in the middle east was carved up by the league of nations after WWI and the collapse of the Turkish Ottoman Empire. They did it as fairly as they could, trying to stick to local demographics. But Palestine was a problem because they couldn't get an agreement on which bit the Jewish state should be and which bit the Arab state should be. So they left it under British rule until a decision could be reached.

Incidentally there were Jews living all over Mandated Palestine, just as there were Arabs.

The British didn't do a terrific job at governing the place (I'm British so this is a sad thing for me to admit, but I suppose we had other problems closer to home).

In 1947 the UN came up with the partition plan, and as I stated above the Jews in Mandatory Palestine were happy-ish with it, with the exception of the Stern Gang and similar groups who saw it as unworkable. The reason being they didn't trust the Arab countries not to attack Israel and knew that the land would be indefensible. As it turned out they were right, because after Israel declared its independence in 1948 it was invaded by Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon.

A gruelling trench-based war ensued, Israel (vastly outnumbered) staunchly defended its population and ultimately the UN brokered a ceasefire which left Jordan in control of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Egypt in control of the Gaza Strip. This left Israel highly vulnerable to further attacks (it was only 10 miles wide at its narrowest, meaning it could be cut in half by Egypt to the south and Jordan to the East), but the situation remained for the next 18 years or so with continuous sporadic violence. East Jerusalem (where the Wailing Wall is) was a no-go area for Jews, which was obviously very painful, and entire communities were removed.

During the war there was a large population transfer, with Jews fleeing Jordan, Iraq, Syria and Egypt and a roughly equal number of Arabs fleeing Israel. The Arabs mostly ended up in Jordanian and Egyptian controlled areas, put in refugee camps and given no legal status (even though a large number of them had originally migrated to Israel from those countries, but that was before the days of passports in those countries). The Jews were given citizenship in Israel.

Your map of 1949-1967 is pretty much what Israel looked like, but the green bits are Jordanian and Egyptian occupied. The rest was governed by Israel but don't forget there was still a large Arab population within Israel during this time who had Israeli citizenship, so to describe it as "Jewish land" is misleading.

Spin on another 18 years, lots more hostilities and aggression and lots of sporadic violence. Then in 1967 President Nasser of Egypt decided he'd have another pop at Israel, but this time only Syria and Jordan joined in (Jordan only did so because King Hussein was sure of victory with Israel's borders being so hard to defend, and this was after Yitzhak Rabin personally flew to Jordan to beg Hussein to not aid the Egyptians). But the temptation of victory and driving the Jews out was too great.

Israel knew of their plans through intelligence and achieved a stunning victory, against all the odds and succeeded in taking back the land that Jordan and Egypt had taken 18 years earlier. So now Israel looked like this.

Then in 1973 Egypt and Syria tried once again to invade Israel on the holiest Jewish day, Yom Kippur, and failed miserably.

Well the rest is history as they say - now you have Gaza in the hands of Hamas after Israel's unilateral withdrawal in 2005 (which was a huge mistake in my view), and Judea/Samaria is mixed Israeli / Palestinian with some bits governed from Jerusalem, some bits governed from Bethlehem, and some bits under shared control. It's a mess really

I think this gives a more accurate picture of the recent history (more accurate than a few dodgy maps anyway).


[edit on 19-8-2009 by mattpryor]

reply to post by mattpryor

What has happened to Palestine on that second map?

Originally posted by Neo-V™
reply to post by mattpryor

 

You'll find that a lot of Jews are also apposed to Zionism...

True Torah Jews is dedicated to informing the world and in particular the American public and politicians that all Jews do not support the ideology of the Zionist state called "Israel" which is diametrically opposite to the teachings of traditional Judaism.

We are concerned that the widespread misconception that all Jews support the zionist state and its actions endangers Jews worldwide.

We are NOT politically motivated. We are motivated by our concern for the peace and safety of all people throughout the world including those living in the Zionist state. We support and pray for peace for the people of the Zionist state but have no interest in and do not support the Zionist government.

Jews Against Zionism

Oh, absolutely. As a whole, I have a lot of admiration for the Jewish people, especially the modern Jewish people. Just as I do for the European people of today; I think they've really learned their mistakes and are tired of their past bigotries.

I really wish Einstein took up on the offer of being President of Israel. He said he wanted justice for the Palestinians, and I think if he were around today he would have accused the modern Zionist elite of being just like the Nazis.

reply to post by Neo-V™


Palestine ceased to exist as a geographical region when it was split into Israel and Jordan 60 years ago. Palestine refers to the whole region, including modern day Israel and the west of Jordan.

The Arab representatives never referred to themselves or their people as Palestinian until the PLO emerged in the 60s. Before that they didn't consider themselves to be any particular nationality, the big thing then was Pan Arabism, which didn't really work out either.

Interesting fact about the PLO: Stands for Palestinian Liberation Organisation as I'm sure you're aware. But when it was formed in 1964, its aim was to "liberate" not the West Bank and Gaza (since they were in Arab hands already - remember this was before 1967) but ALL of the region. It was a resistance to any Jewish state on Arab land whatsoever. They've changed their game (and name) over the years, but their basic reason for existence remains the same: To overthrow the (democratically elected) Israeli government and, it could be argued, to rid the area of Jews.

They had the backing of Jordan to start with, but fell out of favour with King Hussein in the 70s when they started blowing stuff up in Jordan and were kicked out.

Another interesting fact: the Jerusalem Post used to be called the Palestine Post.

A third (and final, I promise) interesting fact: "West Bank" is a name given to the area west of the River Jordan, and its correct name is Judea and Samaria. The term "West Bank" is a post-1948 invention by King Hussein to re-assert the region's Jordanian rule.

Middle East history is fascinating, full of treachery, double dealings, heroics, tragedy. I wish more people would read up on it.

reply to post by mattpryor


Finally someone who actually just puts on the truth with out spin.

This is historic record, very good job and thank you. Star! =)

So I think we have covered a lot of ground in this thread! Clearly the Zionists helped fund Hitler knowing he would commit the holocaust and it would propel and spur Jewish and Zionist immigration to Palestine.

That fact that pro-Zionists don't want to talk about the actual topic nicely proves that they are guilty of this.

For shame! I wonder how long such people will be able to hide behind and scapegoat the people of the Middle East to avoid culpability and responsibility for the attrocities the Zionists committed in Europe?

Not forgetting the holocaust does little good for those who don't want to know, or admitt why the holocaust happened and who was responsible for it.

Those who forget the lessons of history or doomed to repeat it.

Originally posted by HotDogNoBun
Do not hold your breath for the mods to stop this. On ATS you can say anything about the Jews, even try to say they were behind the Holocaust, and they will do nothing. But if you say one thing against a black guy or a homosexual you will get a warning and points taken or even banned in a second.

Rubbish.

What you don't see is that the the very worst excesses of racism get removed off the board by the moderators extremely quickly - to the point where you simply never see them.

As for the topic at hand - Hitler wasn't a godsend for Israel. He couldn't have been simply because Israel as it is now did not exist in 1939 when the war started, nor did it exist in 1945 when the war ended, and nor would it have existed if the Nazi's had won the war

In fact, had the Nazi's original plan been adopted, the country we now call Madagascar would have been a Jewish internment camp with a Nazi governor. Madagascar Plan. I can't imagine it would have been a nice place to be, and more than likely would have echoed the European concentration camps on a massive scale.

When the world didn't work the way the Nazi's wanted it, they reverted to the "final solution" instead.

As such, the premise of the opening post is completely and utterly flawed.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Actually I haven't addressed the original topic because frankly I don't think it's worthy of my time. It's a disgusting and shameful piece of anti-Jewish propaganda.

Bottom line of this thread is: The Jews bought it on themselves, in fact they wanted Hitler to exterminate them so they could have their own country. Same old libel, same old lies. You know what? It gets really, really boring.

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Actually I haven't addressed the original topic because frankly I don't think it's worthy of my time. It's a disgusting and shameful piece of anti-Jewish propaganda.

Bottom line of this thread is: The Jews bought it on themselves, in fact they wanted Hitler to exterminate them so they could have their own country. Same old libel, same old lies. You know what? It gets really, really boring.

Then you ought not be posting on the thread.

Yes the Jews would in fact be bringing it on themselves if they didn't investigate with due dilligence men like Rothschild, Churchill, Rockefeller, Harriman and Bush and how there machinations and manipulations might have deliberately contributed to the holocaust.

That would be mature though and wise and require research and due dilligence and rob you of the opportunity to bash Palestinians when the thread isn't about them Matt.

The topic is did Hitler propel immigration to Palestine.

I think you know by now the reverse physcology and deflection tactics don't work with me Matt.

It's neither a Palestinian or Jew Bashing thread, so why keep trying to turn it into that.

Who funded Hitler and why Matt?

That's the topic.

I only have ONE issue with the OP - you talked about "exterminating" Zionists. i am totally against capital punishment and killing people no matter what, I'd like to see Zionism exposed for what it really is, that is Jewish supremacy, but killing them off would be horrible.

Neformore, Matt,
Thank you for those posts. It's information many who are anti-Israel ignore with their rhetoric. They try to blame the Israelis for everything that happens to them but I can't think of one time they have started a fight but always seem to finish them. They are counter punchers and not initiators! Leave them alone and you will receive in-kind treatment. Attack them, you better bring your lunch, because it's not going to be a walkover!
Zindo