Sodomized to Protect Our Freedoms

reply to post by coodeytar

Guilty of what? Defending what they believe in?

Are you serious? From that statement it sounds like your justifying acts of terror just because the terrorist believes what he is doing is right. Please clarify.

I understand what your saying about the guilty/innocent part, see my above post. My argument is that I don't have any sympathy for a terrorist being tortured, although I do see where your coming from about the torturer being a criminal himself and I have expressed my thoughts about that in a previous post.

Let me ask you a simple question regarding the torture scenario;

Suppose you have a terrorist in captivity, you know as fact that he is a ring leader of a terroist cell and this cell has planted a bomb in one of the major hotels in America/UK/where ever.

Problem is, he won't tell you which hotel its in. It's logically impossible to evacuate every single person from every single hotel in a country. (Suppose he hasn't even told you its in a hotel...)

What do you? I'm asking you this seriously because I can understand torture doesn't work in certain situations.

Are you going to politely sit there and ask him? He isn't going to tell you.

Later that night the bomb explodes killing 2000 men, women, children and injuring 700 more.

You give the terrorist the death penalty. Thats not going to bring those 2000 back from the dead.

So, once again, seriously what would you solution be?

Its great that you respect and value your rights and you say that you value those of others? Well shouldn't you also value those of the people that are fighting for other peoples rights?

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by maybereal11

 

I understand what your saying about the difficulties in ascertaining whether they are guilty or not and I can see the dilemma this causes.

However, this isn't really the point I'm arguing.

The point I am trying to make is I find it difficult to accept that people empathize/sympathize with terrorist's.

How can anyone feel sorry for someone that intends of killing hundreds of innocent civilians including men, women and children?

They should rot in hell in my opinion.

I'm not arguing about the usage of torture techniques or the fact that the prison guards are just as guilty for committing such offences.

So you derailed a whole thread just to state the obvious?

reply to post by nunya13


Firstly I'm sorry about your experiences as a child. You make a very valid point about understanding how it would make someone else feel as you have been through it yourself.

Well your definately one in a million because I know if anyone touched a member of my family then I'd be sitting in a prison cell now.

However I respect your values and attitude and actually would go as far to say I nearly admire you for it. Being the better man and all that, not allowing yourself to be dragged down to their level.

As mentioned previously I'm not really arguing about torture.

I just have no sympathy for terrorists and personally wouldn't give a crap about a broom being shoved up their anus. They would do the same to you or me...

I actually have a lot of compassion for people I know and people I don't know. Thats why I'm displaying so much anger, because I want the people in this world who want to kill innocent men, women and children, dead!

reply to post by Majestic23


Nope, because I have seen people in this thread who do sympathize with terrorists

reply to post by open_eyeballs


Did you read the part where I mentioned a pre-emptive strike?

If I walk past an old lady on the street and shes being mugged legally I'm allowed to intervene and use reasonable force to protect her.

If you visit your mother and someone is trying to stab her to death then legally you allowed to protect her. Killing someone in self defence isn't legally... yet

The term appropriate or reasonable force is key here.

[edit on 6/8/09 by Death_Kron]

reply to post by EvolvedMinistry


I apologise for the name calling.

Hmmm...you seem to speak as if YOUR daughter had been personally raped or molested by a terrorist. Well, is this true??? Have you been directly affected by a terrorist recently? Because, I'd say your chances of being directly affected by the motives of an Islamic terrorist are about as prevalent as being hit by lightening on a sunny day.

No and neither have you. But that is irrelevant, I don't need to have personal dealings with an islamic terrorist for me to disagree with what they do.

And we're not talking about terrorists raping and pillaging here. Usually, that is not their M.O. Maybe you've missed the point of the thread here. We're talking about OUR military raping and torturing SUSPECTED TERRORISTS. (i.e. people who have not even been through trial or convicted of anything) And, how many people have we detained and tortured who we merely had to release later because of their non-involvement in terrorist activities? The number may surprise you.

If the they actually was a terrorist would you still feel sorry for them?

So, I think your wires are definitely crossed up. And according to the amount of hatred I see spilling from your post, you may actually need a form of psychological evaluation. I honestly think that you may be a threat to yourself and others

Thanks for the advice, I didn't realise you had a degree in psychology.

And, as it were...I do not have a daughter, so, I don't really have to worry about that nonsense involving your fictitious/fantasy scenario of a terrorist raping her. Although I can tell that you somewhat revel in the idea of the misery of others. I see Americans doing enough damage to EACH OTHER without having to worry about the specter of dark Arabic man hiding behind my closet waiting to pounce on the innocence of my family.

That "fictitious nonsense" was an attempt to give you an insight into how you would feel, and more importantly, what you would want to do to someone that did harm one of your loved ones.

I'm pretty sure you would happily watch while he was tortured/executed.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by Majestic23

 

Nope, because I have seen people in this thread who do sympathize with terrorists

And you are so convinced the perspective is right? What about the millions of innocent people who have died and suffered in the Iraq war?

If we stopped occupying lands that dont belong to us then we would not have terrorists.

We are the aggressor. We kill thousands of children, does that mean we should be ass raped?

This is basically a problem wherein people are unable to admit we are the bad guys.

reply to post by Majestic23


My perspective is irrelevant really. Yeah of course I feel sorry about the millions of innocent people who have died but how many more would be killed if we weren't there?

I don't know the statistics.

I'm sorry but to say the only reason terrorism exists is because we occupy other peoples countries is just plain stupid.

There are always going to be extremists.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
My perspective is irrelevant really. Yeah of course I feel sorry about the millions of innocent people who have died but how many more would be killed if we weren't there?

How many more? There would be no where near a many deaths, that includes the coalition and civilian Westerners aswell.

Originally posted by Death_Kron I don't know the statistics.

Then common sense would tell us a war usually ends up in more deaths than no war.

Originally posted by Death_KronI'm sorry but to say the only reason terrorism exists is because we occupy other peoples countries is just plain stupid.

Oh yeah, the secret government carries out most of the terrorist acts that lead us to war.

Originally posted by Death_KronThere are always going to be extremists.

If you were not in their country, they would not feel the need to kill anyone, simple as. They would not be so extreme. Further still the law states one has the right to defend their country in armed conflict if occupied by an aggressor. How else can they fight? They dont have an modern army.

reply to post by Majestic23

If you were not in their country, they would not feel the need to kill anyone, simple as. They would not be so extreme. Further still the law states one has the right to defend their country in armed conflict if occupied by an aggressor. How else can they fight? They dont have an modern army.

You should read the Muslim Extremists thread, heard of sharia law? Rape victims being raped and stoned to death by their government. So don't tell me they would stop killing because thats simply not true.

By the way we are talking about terrorists here, not an army.

Oh yeah, the secret government carries out most of the terrorist acts that lead us to war.

I suggest you read a little about terrorism and the amount of different terrorist groups in existance. If you really think because we "invade" peoples countries or that the government manufactures all terrorism then your not really that bright.

Then common sense would tell us a war usually ends up in more deaths than no war.

For once we agree.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
You should read the Muslim Extremists thread, heard of sharia law? Rape victims being raped and stoned to death by their government. So don't tell me they would stop killing because thats simply not true.

Same old ad hominem, The Sun, bull#. This has nothing to do with the argument at hand.
Why dont we get out of their countries and stop bombing them and we will see wont we?

Originally posted by Death_KronI suggest you read a little about terrorism and the amount of different terrorist groups in existance. If you really think because we "invade" peoples countries or that the government manufactures all terrorism then your not really that bright.

Another insult coming from you insinuating I am somehow stupid. Is this because your arguments are all over the place and dont hold water? Try and keep it on topic.
Stop suggesting I read propaganda and conjecture, make your own arguments and stop relying on others.
If you have been convinced by the media that people are willing to die for no good reason then that suggests to me your opinion of how bright I am doesant really matter all that much.

Originally posted by Death_KronFor once we agree.

Hows that? You just suggested that more people could have died if we didnt go to war in Iraq when this is a nonsense. Are you saying you take that assertion back?

reply to post by Death_Kron


Wow, I'm reeling about the complete 180 you have made since the beginning of the thread. I appreciate your appologies for what happened to me, but they are not needed. You had nothing to do with it. I'm actually quite over it too. I blocked a lot of it out thankfully. I think.

I get just as angry when people are terrorizing the innocent. I guess it's just that wanting them dead seems like I'm being just like them. They see us as having terrorized them for decades and they feel justified in their actions, just like we do. But I dont' think either side is justified in their killing because I personally don't believe that taking a life, unless you are faced with an urgent and immediate danger to yourself, is justified.

Not understanding someone's thought process doesn't mean they should die for it. I think it's vile and disgusting what they do. But since I could never take their life, I can't justify someone else doing it for me just because I wouldn't do it. Because I might as well be doing and I don't want to.

I think I rambled a bit at the end

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry

 

I apologise for the name calling.

Hmmm...you seem to speak as if YOUR daughter had been personally raped or molested by a terrorist. Well, is this true??? Have you been directly affected by a terrorist recently? Because, I'd say your chances of being directly affected by the motives of an Islamic terrorist are about as prevalent as being hit by lightening on a sunny day.

No and neither have you. But that is irrelevant, I don't need to have personal dealings with an islamic terrorist for me to disagree with what they do.

And we're not talking about terrorists raping and pillaging here. Usually, that is not their M.O. Maybe you've missed the point of the thread here. We're talking about OUR military raping and torturing SUSPECTED TERRORISTS. (i.e. people who have not even been through trial or convicted of anything) And, how many people have we detained and tortured who we merely had to release later because of their non-involvement in terrorist activities? The number may surprise you.

If the they actually was a terrorist would you still feel sorry for them?

So, I think your wires are definitely crossed up. And according to the amount of hatred I see spilling from your post, you may actually need a form of psychological evaluation. I honestly think that you may be a threat to yourself and others

Thanks for the advice, I didn't realise you had a degree in psychology.

And, as it were...I do not have a daughter, so, I don't really have to worry about that nonsense involving your fictitious/fantasy scenario of a terrorist raping her. Although I can tell that you somewhat revel in the idea of the misery of others. I see Americans doing enough damage to EACH OTHER without having to worry about the specter of dark Arabic man hiding behind my closet waiting to pounce on the innocence of my family.

That "fictitious nonsense" was an attempt to give you an insight into how you would feel, and more importantly, what you would want to do to someone that did harm one of your loved ones.

I'm pretty sure you would happily watch while he was tortured/executed.

Long gone are the days that we exercise an "eye for an eye" mentality. There are prisons filled with people who have adopted that view and found out that it was not the best idea. Hurting someone else before they hurt you is an excuse for those who area already prone to violence and looking for a reason to cause someone else harm. Preemption often leads to error in judgment. There truly is no way to determine future events, and torture often leads to faulty intelligence. Especially if those you are torturing are completely innocent of their supposed "crimes."

Our politicians have created a very volatile environment overseas for its citizens (i.e, you and I.) as a result of their policies.
Because of their actions, United States citizens are hated when they travel abroad to visit different countries. If actions like torture continue, other nations will see this as a threat and react accordingly.

Sorry, I cannot limit myself to the idea that torture is a viable tactic. There are many people in the world who consider the United States to be the world's worst terrorists. As a matter of fact, there are more in the world who consider the United States a threat than they do the Islamic fundamentalists that you so fear. If we were to exercise the idea of majority rules (you know DEMOCRACY), Then we would be the one's rounded up in herds to be tortured and executed for our crimes. Its happened before (WWI, WW2) Your views are influenced by the fears instilled into you by the media. I somewhat understand that. And, I can tell that it angers you that you cannot project your fears onto me so that I adopt your world view. Some time ago in my not too distant past, I used to think the same way.

If you're so scared that terrorists are taking over the world, we have this little thing called the military, and you can join it to make the differences that you so desire. However, there are two sides to the coin. Go ahead and go out there and torture your way to freedom. However, don't be surprised when you end up on the same chopping block. Most of our top military officials agree that to torture another human being puts our own military at risk for the same treatment. You might want to talk with John McCain or Colin Powell. Both of them have done things that we can only speculate about, and one of them (McCain) was tortured for roughly 5 years. Keep in mind, it wasn't his family...IT WAS HIM.

Coming from someone of McCain's experience, he was the first to admit that torture was WRONG. And even though it happened to him, in other words (first hand experience,) he is adamantly against the use of torture for revenge or to get information. That says worlds about the difference between experience and speculative conjecture.

So, when I hear the views of the inexperienced advocating the use of torture and violence to extract info, I realize that they obviously have no concept, or knowledge of the implications of the things which you support. It opens up a can of worms that cannot possibly be shut.

There are those of us who critically think about the implications and respect the views of those who have been there. If we begin the process of torturing others to extract information, eventually, we lose the moral high ground and the respect of our allies. Eventually, we may be on the chopping block for the same treatment. Just remember, all empires fall...and when they do, they are usually treated the same way that they treated others.

[edit on 6-8-2009 by EvolvedMinistry]

[edit on 6-8-2009 by EvolvedMinistry]

[edit on 6-8-2009 by EvolvedMinistry]

[edit on 6-8-2009 by EvolvedMinistry]

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry

 

I apologise for the name calling.

Hmmm...you seem to speak as if YOUR daughter had been personally raped or molested by a terrorist. Well, is this true??? Have you been directly affected by a terrorist recently? Because, I'd say your chances of being directly affected by the motives of an Islamic terrorist are about as prevalent as being hit by lightening on a sunny day.

No and neither have you. But that is irrelevant, I don't need to have personal dealings with an islamic terrorist for me to disagree with what they do.

And we're not talking about terrorists raping and pillaging here. Usually, that is not their M.O. Maybe you've missed the point of the thread here. We're talking about OUR military raping and torturing SUSPECTED TERRORISTS. (i.e. people who have not even been through trial or convicted of anything) And, how many people have we detained and tortured who we merely had to release later because of their non-involvement in terrorist activities? The number may surprise you.

If the they actually was a terrorist would you still feel sorry for them?

So, I think your wires are definitely crossed up. And according to the amount of hatred I see spilling from your post, you may actually need a form of psychological evaluation. I honestly think that you may be a threat to yourself and others

Thanks for the advice, I didn't realise you had a degree in psychology.

And, as it were...I do not have a daughter, so, I don't really have to worry about that nonsense involving your fictitious/fantasy scenario of a terrorist raping her. Although I can tell that you somewhat revel in the idea of the misery of others. I see Americans doing enough damage to EACH OTHER without having to worry about the specter of dark Arabic man hiding behind my closet waiting to pounce on the innocence of my family.

That "fictitious nonsense" was an attempt to give you an insight into how you would feel, and more importantly, what you would want to do to someone that did harm one of your loved ones.

I'm pretty sure you would happily watch while he was tortured/executed.

I do accept your apology for the name calling and respect you for your opinion. Thank you for being diplomatic.

Alright guys, I'm going to call a truce.

I think we have probably misunderstood each other.

Yep, I'll accept hands down the soldiers raping someone, terrorist or not, is wrong.

My argument was I feel no sympathy for a terrorist but I think I have got a little carried away and not looked at what people have been saying.

Soldiers, out of all people, should be able to follow protocol.

We need to draw a line and have a method to treat all kinds of people, including terrorists. Not only that, we have to follow that rule.

I wish no one disrespect and I'll actually thank the members (you know who I'm talking too) for making me look at a situation in a different light.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you also feel the same way about terrorists? But you also make good points about violence not being the answer.

My fiery nature will probably always overtake me at times but like I said previous; how can you scare someone who isn't afraid to die?

I have been talking to someone close to me about this matter and their opinion is who are we to change other peoples cultures.

Although I'm not entirely sure I agree with this mentality, the person had a point.

Again I wish no disrespect and I'm sorry for being a little hot headed.



[edit on 6/8/09 by Death_Kron]

Originally posted by Death_Kron
Alright guys, I'm going to call a truce.

I think we have probably misunderstood each other.

Yep, I'll accept hands down the soldiers raping someone, terrorist or not, is wrong.

My argument was I feel no sympathy for a terrorist but I think I have got a little carried away and not looked at what people have been saying.

Soldiers, out of all people, should be able to follow protocol.

We need to draw a line and have a method to treat all kinds of people, including terrorists. Not only that, we have to follow that rule.

I wish no one disrespect and I'll actually thank the members (you know who I'm talking too) for making me look at a situation in a different light.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you also feel the same way about terrorists? But you also make good points about violence not being the answer.

My fiery nature will probably always overtake me at times but like I said previous; how can you scare someone who isn't afraid to die?

I have been talking to someone close to me about this matter and their opinion is who are we to change other peoples cultures.

Although I'm not entirely sure I agree with this mentality, the person had a point.

Again I wish no disrespect and I'm sorry for being a little hot headed.

[edit on 6/8/09 by Death_Kron]

Excellent. And don't get me wrong, I do not support a terrorist by any means. They make the world a harder place for those who are trying to accomplish good. When caught, they should face the proper procedures, and then be dealt with accordingly. Just remember, as horrible as their actions are...they are still human who are flesh and blood and are prone to make mistakes.

Thank you for the debate.

reply to post by Death_Kron


Hey, man it's aaaaaaall good! LOL Wow, I just love threads that turn out like this. I'm not saying that it's good we changed your mind (sort of). What's awesome is when people with differing opinions can take a step back from the situation and look at it from all angles. It's entirely possible to have civil discussions about very controversial subjects without it degenerating into a bunch of cavemen (errr...cave women too, that's me) yelling grunts at each other.

I really, really wish all ATS threads could start out and continue the way this one ended.

Agree to disagree while understanding and accepting other points of views even if they don't jive with yours without having to scream at and insult each other.

Imagine if everyone could do this. Imagine how much power THEY would loose if, even though we can disagree, we realized we're all being sodomized someway or another by the same people.

reply to post by Exuberant1


Maybe someone can answer me how this makes you tell the truth? It just makes you hate your enemy even more.

reply to post by Death_Kron

Killing someone in self defence isn't legally... yet

Thats not what you said. Nor was it what you implied. What you are trying to do is change your argument and your tone because you realised your way off base with your inane "do-gooder" argument.

This thread isnt about either of those things. It was about torture and your stubborn defense of it. Many here have called you out on it and your impotent attempt at labeling those who don't believe in it as "do-gooders."

So, sorry. You and anyone else trying to imply torture as excusable in some circumstances are wrong. It is either always right or always wrong. ther is no in between excuses such as "only for use when trying to catch "terrorists."

Wouldn't it be nice if the world worked that way.

If I were you I would ask some of the POWs from the last 5 wars that have really experienced torture, and see what they have to say about it.

Originally posted by NathanNewZealand
reply to post by Exuberant1

 

If a terrorist is endangering YOUR life and the lives of all of YOUR loved ones by withholding information, then do whatever it takes to get that information out of the *SNIP* mongrel and save those lives.

Too many weak, left-wing, politically-correct, do-gooders will be the downfall of this marvelous society.

Mod Edit: Hold off on the foul language please. Cheers -alien

[edit on 5-8-2009 by alien]

it is the sin lusting no gooders who have already ruined this country and the world. and it is the same type of evil-hearted individuals who would perform these cruel acts to anyone. And what is a Terrorist? Someone the goverment thinks is counter-productive to their agenda of course. I think the guy above is quite ignorant and its sad people are so bold as to spew crap over this website.

Sodom and Gammorah were "Marvelous Societys", however they were annihilated by fire and brimstone for their inequity and sin lusting hearts. God said that if there was even 10 righteous found in Sodom and Gammorah, he would spare the cities for the 10 righteous peoples sake. and unfortunetely it had to go. our country is becomming the same, however there are enough of us do-gooders praying for this country and the people in it.