Sodomized to Protect Our Freedoms

Originally posted by Majestic23

Originally posted by Janitor From Mars
Either that or the forums are a melting pot for angry, disenfranchised, potentially paranoid right wingers.

Dont forget closet homosexuals.

Seriously, the guy whos talking about the hockey dude getting raped. Why are all pack jocks like this? Why are they all so uncomfortable with their sexuality? Making gay jokes all day then putting stuff up other dudes arses.

Cant you guys see that there is simply no justification for this type of thing under any circumstances? There is no justification.

Sure you will come up with some dumb guff like "Well see if you have the same attitude if your daughter is raped and your son is blown up!".

Well thats a stupid argument, no amount of rape is going to stop those things from happening. If its so effective why dont you start a new army of butt marines? Just buttrape your way to freedom!

You guys come out with the same tired stuff again and again and then band together, pat each other on the back (and probably ass) and cry "do-gooders".

Well Iam not a do-gooder by any means, in fact I used to be a nationalistic, racist fool before I saw how futile, impotent and misguided that view was.

Excellently stated. I could not have assessed or addressed the situation better than you just did.

And its very clear why we have the don't ask/don't tell policy in the military. If they were to assess the percentages of violence and latent homosexual activity in the military, I think they would find the numbers staggering. I estimate an 85% to 15% ratio in the rampant amount of gay/sociopathic soldiers to those of a heterosexual persuasion. (don't get me wrong here, I am not calling all homosexuals sociopaths. That is not my belief. However, it seems that many of our soldiers who have been "outed" in their tortuous endeavors, seem to display many of these qualities.) The fact is...If we were to kick out all of the homosexuals serving in the military, we'd lose probably three quarters of our standing army. It takes a special type of guy to serve in close quarters with his "fellow man." Showering with them, sleeping with them, sharing the most intimate details of each others lives. Seriously, put it in perspective.

Then, lets narrow those numbers down to the morons who support everything that the military does, even when its contradictory to US policy. I think the numbers would be roughly the same. Its amazing to me how these guys blatantly support the RAPE of another individual of the same sexual gender in the name of FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY. Absolutely asinine!!!

America's new slogan...LIVE FREE, OR WE'LL RAPE YOU!!!

[edit on 5-8-2009 by EvolvedMinistry]

[edit on 5-8-2009 by EvolvedMinistry]

[edit on 5-8-2009 by EvolvedMinistry]

[edit on 5-8-2009 by EvolvedMinistry]

[edit on 5-8-2009 by EvolvedMinistry]

reply to post by open_eyeballs


Nope, I think your wrong there mate. It is called self defence, maybe you should look up the definition of a pre-emptive strike and come back to me with that.

Wouldn't you violently defend your family if you had to? Sad truth is you probably wouldn't and you'll become another statistic. Your choice...

I should get off my high horse? Thats exactly what you should be doing my friend, getting off your PC do-gooder "even terrorists have human rights" stage

A do-gooder is someone like yourself, so you really shouldnt have to ask me to describe one to you...

Maybe you should read my post again smart arse and then comment.

I have never encouraged torture, simply said I have no sympathy for a terrorist. A concept which you apparently do not seem to be able to comprehend, I suppose we all have our shortcomings.

Oh forgot to mention, theres a massive difference between a terrorist and a petty criminal. If you fail to notice that then well theres no hope is there?

reply to post by EvolvedMinistry


I don't think that homosexuality is even vaguely an issue here, women have been raped by soldiers of all militaries for centuries, men may have too, but it is simply that now, men feel more able to come forward without worrying about the snide questioning of whether they enjoyed it or not. Women of course suffered through the same juvenile behaviour from law enforcement, media and the courts, but seldom was their sexuality called into question in the same way as male victims. Rape, including using a foreign object, is an act of aggression, a way of demonstrating your power over the victim, it has very little to do with sex or sexuality.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
Oh forgot to mention, theres a massive difference between a terrorist and a petty criminal. If you fail to notice that then well theres no hope is there?

Yes there is a very clear and defined difference, the petty criminal is innocent until proven guilty, the terrorist is guilty until proven innocent.

reply to post by EvolvedMinistry


That is the most ridiculous post I have ever seen in my life!

So you are likening newspapers/CNN/MSM to people raping and killing rape victims?!?!

I suppose that means your a terrorist then? Because I'm pretty sure no matter how "sensible" you think you are that at some point in your life you have been violent with the intention to intimidate someone?

Or are you going to tell me "no, I've never done that, I respect each and every human... blah blah blah"

Pot, Kettle, Black mate.

Your argument is flawed so dramatically I really am not sure how to comment.

And then, maybe you'll be on the receiving end of the very thing that you think terrorists deserve.

Lets give them a cup of tea and have a nice little heart to heart then. Wait till its your daughter with her throat cut and the video on youtube, I'm sure you will change your tune.

But as usual we have a politically correct do-gooder who doesn't know his elbow from his foot

Originally posted by Death_Kron
To sum it up simply, if and its a big if, those held in captivity are guilty of their crimes then I don't care what happens to them.
[edit on 5/8/09 by Death_Kron]

This statement is a bit circular...the big IF you mention is often what the interrogators are trying to discover through torture.

Also..I understand the misconception that torture is a productive way of getting information, but it isn't. Not my opinion, but rather the opinion of most CIA and Military intelligence vets. Go ahead and research it, read interviews and news stories. There are both real life stories and scientific research confirming this...torture does not work.

The Bush admin. was forced to turn to low ranking intelligence officers and "contractors" to implement "enhanced interrogation" techniques when the vets within the intelligence community pushed back, not on moral grounds so much as practical ones...it doesn't work and it costs American lives in the long run.

What does work in lieu of torture...sophisticated psychological techniques. They can "turn" people, befriend them, make believe they have certain knowledge already etc. etc. This is how most "actionable" human intelligence was and is obtained.

Yes...someone is threatening your family..defend your family.

Lets stick with your "family" analogy.

If a neighbor tells you he heard that somone down the street might be working for someone that intends your family harm...

Do you have the right to kidnap them, tie them up in your basement and unleash physical horrors upon them to find out if they actually deserve it?...Really? It seems illigocal doesn't it?

What if he was innocent? What does that make you? What would your neighborhood think about you and your family after you horrifically raped or tortured an innocent neighbor? Have you made your family more or less safe?

There are far better and more reliable ways to get information. Less satisfying to our baser impulses, but far better and of better value to our security all the same.

Like I said, don't take my liberal, lefty, commie, terrorist loving words for it....research it. This is the opinion of CIA vets, ops agents and people who interrogate very, very bad people for a living.

Torture does not work.

[edit on 5-8-2009 by maybereal11]

reply to post by EvolvedMinistry


No, you are weak.

Tell me wise old master, how do we stop these maniac terrorist from killing people?

You haven't got a clue have you?

I suppose child rapists deserve to live aswell don't they? After all they have human rights?

Get real.

reply to post by maybereal11


Mate, I understand everything you said and its nice you actually responded to my analogy.

But can I stress something, regardless of the possibilities, I did say if they were 110% guilty.

I'm not arguing if they are or if they aren't. I'm saying if they are then I have NO sympathy. Surely everyone should feel the same?

Obviously not.

reply to post by coodeytar


I'm starting to wonder if the majority of ATS members can read.

Read my post AGAIN.

I said if they are proven 110% guilty and there is no doubt then personally I don't give a crap what happens to them.

reply to post by maybereal11


Very good post and points well made

In the UK we had a near 100% turn rate on captured agents during WW2. Gave them a slap up feed, a few fags, a couple of pints of beer, nice chat and then sent them back on their way to work for 'our side'. In the battle of hearts and minds torture only makes more enemies, killing them (or their ignorant beliefs) with kindness (and information) is far, far more effective, especially when they haven't got much of that at home. Failing that, money works well too.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by maybereal11

 

Mate, I understand everything you said and its nice you actually responded to my analogy.

But can I stress something, regardless of the possibilities, I did say if they were 110% guilty.

I'm not arguing if they are or if they aren't. I'm saying if they are then I have NO sympathy. Surely everyone should feel the same?
Obviously not.

110% Guilty...Well if only life had those certaintites.

What if the torturers are trying to determine if someone is guilty...see the paradox?

Real life is not an episode of 24. The US Gov. offered bounties of 5k and 10k in Afghanistan for "suspected" Taliban and Al-Qaeda. It was like winning the lottery for anyone willing to kidnap someone. Everyone on the US side involved in the disbursment of these funds has stated flatly that they knew many of those being turned over were simply villagers rounded up for money by rival clans. The CIA "contractors" processing them told them not to worry...they would sort them out.

110% guilty is not easy to come by in this world and even more so in a war zone. I have a brother that served in the 101st in Afganistan and was awarded a medal...His unit abhored the CIA...they needed the locals on their side in order to manuever and operate and the CIA was telling them to burn poppy fields and round up folks for "interrogations".

[edit on 5-8-2009 by maybereal11]

Originally posted by Death_Kron
I said if they are proven 110% guilty and there is no doubt then personally I don't give a crap what happens to them.

Guilty of what? Defending what they believe in? The torture serves to obtain evidence to convict or prolong captivity, they use the torture to 'prove' guilt...think about it...they deserve what happened to them after the fact...I mean this, think about what you are saying.

Your point I accept in principle, but have all these men who have come forward with tales of torture actually been found guilty in a court of law? Do you simply accept it when someone says that someone is guilty of a crime? Don't you think that they should be entitled to due process? Torture is a crime. There is no justification for torture. It is an ineffective means of obtaining the truth. Again, torture is a crime. What right has one criminal got (the torturer) to decide that another is a criminal? Do you see my point? Two wrongs do not make a right. The law exists to protect society from the criminal. A crime is not a crime until it has been proven to be so by the prosecution service and charges have been filed. Those are the laws that you and I are subject to. These men, who are suffering torture, have been denied those fundamental rights. The people that denied them those rights, are further compounding that injustice by commiting illegal acts against those in their care. They deserve exactly the same rights as you and I, whether you like it or not, they do, that is the law as it exists.

Have you ever heard the phrase there but for the grace of god go I? I am not PC or a do-gooder, I simply wish to defend the rights that I have and I don't want those to be taken from me. If I look away because I don't currently fit a targeted demographic, how do I know that I won't fit into the next target demographic? If they can get away with doing it to them, when might they think they can get away with it with me, or my kids, or their kids? My human rights were fought for by men and women greater than I, I am grateful for those rights and have respect for the sacrifice of others to obtain for me those rights. I take nothing for granted and applaud anyone who has suffered such abuses for having the bravery to come forward and stand up for themselves. No one, absolutely no one, deserves to be tortured, no matter what they did. I don't condone terrorism, but I struggle, in this case to see anyone other than the US military as the terrorists.

[edit on 5-8-2009 by coodeytar]

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by coodeytar

 

I'm starting to wonder if the majority of ATS members can read.

Read my post AGAIN.

I said if they are proven 110% guilty and there is no doubt then personally I don't give a crap what happens to them.

Did YOU read my post responding to your post telling me to "go back to bed" and "get off my high horse" (actually, I think that was the post just before you told me how irate you were with my response that you had to reply again)? That I would change my mind if someone did this to my child? Let me rehash it for you...

Originally posted by nunya13
reply to post by Death_Kron

 

I was a victim of child rape, not molestation, RAPE, when my sister and I were 5 and 6 years old and it went on for about a year or so. I don't wish the same on the S.O.B.

I think I would be able to know how I would feel if someone did this to someone I know or myself.

Take a chill pill, it'll be okay.

Edit to add: What if the people being sodomized didn't do anything wrong?

[edit on 4-8-2009 by nunya13]

So, you can see, even though I have endured something NO PERSON should ever have to endure, I do not wish the same on the perpetrator who did those vile things to my sister and I. Why?

Simple. I'm better than he is. I don't want to become him. Venturing into dark territories of my mind that would have to become active in order to perform such acts on someone is not an option. I don't even know is such territories exist.

He wasn't even punished adequately. Does that anger me? Of course it does. Am I going to let this person have the power to control my well being even after he did such things years ago? Hell no!

Even if the "terrorist" that was sodomized was actually guilty of these crimes, I worry more about the soldier who was even able to perform the act of sodomy on someone. With a broom stick nonetheless. But you say they should be imprisoned too for doing such a thing. So then, if you think it's okay what they did, why should they be imprisoned for doing something that you see as justified?

Who in their right mind justifies (picture this really hard) taking your average everyday broomstick, forcing a prisoner to bend over after you've put a dark hood over there face, and physically inserting said broomstick into the prisoners anus over and over again while said anus bleeds profusely?

You can call people a do-gooder and add a nifty little afterward to reiterate how bad you thing being a do-gooder is all you want. but the reality is, if you think being a do-gooder is bad then that must mean you don't do much to do good yourself. I dare say you lack compassion for anyone whom you do not know personally. I could easily be wrong but that is my judgment based on the anger you have displayed so intensely on this thread.

If the world had more do-gooders, we wouldn't be in this thread talking about this right now. We probably wouldn't even be in this war. Because the reason the "terrorists" hate us so much has NOTHING to do with our compassion for others. It has nothing to do with how much respect we have shown the Middle Eastern world. And it certainly has nothing to do with our freedom and way of life. If that was the case, they wouldn't have flown planes into structures that represented greed and unbridled power. They would've attacked the Statue of Liberty, the Library of Congress, a church, a school, a museum...

You can also tell me and others to get off our high horse. It really doesn't bother me. I take it as a complement coming from someone with such hatred and anger in their heart. I DO like to think I'm better than that.

reply to post by coodeytar


I agree. The most important rights to protect are those of your enemies. Our constitution is what sets us apart from the rest of the world. It's is THE BEST THING about our country.

We go around the world "promoting democracy" and resorting to war to do it. So what does it say about us when we say that only American citizens deserve to have "inalienable rights"? If we are to prove how great and wonderful our constitution and our countrymen and women are, then we will show the world that we will treat EVERY HUMAN BEING on this planet according to the same constitutional parameters that American citizens enjoy.

That's how you win hearts and minds. You don't do that by saying, "Look how great our country is. Oops, sorry, didn't' mean to blow your kid up or shove a broomstick up your uncles butt. Meh, you're not covered under the constitution anyway. Oh well. FREEDOM FOR ALL!"

Can you imagine? "Sir, if you don't want us to legally shove this broomstick up your butt, you're going to need to become an American citizen."

Originally posted by NathanNewZealand
reply to post by Miraj

 

It's not us people like me that keep this us vs them attitude going. Einstien. It's the islamic extremists, isn't it?
They HATE you, yep, YOU personally. Because THEY buy into their own brainwashing techniques. They will keep on attacking, YOU know this to be true, brains.
So, to save our society, torture the mongrels for info. Torture them all.

I've read all the posts on this thread and I can only come to one conclusion.... you sir are a F*cking Idiot. There is a special level in hell reserved for people like you, "A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater."

reply to post by Death_Kron


Sorry mate. Your wrong. You are basically saying an eye for an eye is self defense. In the eyes of the law, an eye for an eye lands you behind bars for life. You may not like that, but that is the way it is.

As for the rest of your post, well, theres nothing there to respond to. Its all lame hogwash.

NEXT...

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry

 

No, you are weak.

Tell me wise old master, how do we stop these maniac terrorist from killing people?

You haven't got a clue have you?

I suppose child rapists deserve to live aswell don't they? After all they have human rights?

Get real.

You can call me whatever names that you choose. However, I think your behavior reveals your weaknesses as opposed to expose mine.

If you cannot come up with a better argument than what you have already presented, then, our conversation is futile.

Thank you for your response.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry

 

That is the most ridiculous post I have ever seen in my life!

So you are likening newspapers/CNN/MSM to people raping and killing rape victims?!?!

I suppose that means your a terrorist then? Because I'm pretty sure no matter how "sensible" you think you are that at some point in your life you have been violent with the intention to intimidate someone?

Or are you going to tell me "no, I've never done that, I respect each and every human... blah blah blah"

Pot, Kettle, Black mate.

Your argument is flawed so dramatically I really am not sure how to comment.

And then, maybe you'll be on the receiving end of the very thing that you think terrorists deserve.

Lets give them a cup of tea and have a nice little heart to heart then. Wait till its your daughter with her throat cut and the video on youtube, I'm sure you will change your tune.

But as usual we have a politically correct do-gooder who doesn't know his elbow from his foot

Hmmm...you seem to speak as if YOUR daughter had been personally raped or molested by a terrorist. Well, is this true??? Have you been directly affected by a terrorist recently? Because, I'd say your chances of being directly affected by the motives of an Islamic terrorist are about as prevalent as being hit by lightening on a sunny day.

And we're not talking about terrorists raping and pillaging here. Usually, that is not their M.O. Maybe you've missed the point of the thread here. We're talking about OUR military raping and torturing SUSPECTED TERRORISTS. (i.e. people who have not even been through trial or convicted of anything) And, how many people have we detained and tortured who we merely had to release later because of their non-involvement in terrorist activities? The number may surprise you.

So, I think your wires are definitely crossed up. And according to the amount of hatred I see spilling from your post, you may actually need a form of psychological evaluation. I honestly think that you may be a threat to yourself and others.

And, as it were...I do not have a daughter, so, I don't really have to worry about that nonsense involving your fictitious/fantasy scenario of a terrorist raping her. Although I can tell that you somewhat revel in the idea of the misery of others. I see Americans doing enough damage to EACH OTHER without having to worry about the specter of dark Arabic man hiding behind my closet waiting to pounce on the innocence of my family.

You need to join the rest of us here in reality my friend.

[edit on 5-8-2009 by EvolvedMinistry]

Originally posted by coodeytar
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry

 

I don't think that homosexuality is even vaguely an issue here, women have been raped by soldiers of all militaries for centuries, men may have too, but it is simply that now, men feel more able to come forward without worrying about the snide questioning of whether they enjoyed it or not. Women of course suffered through the same juvenile behaviour from law enforcement, media and the courts, but seldom was their sexuality called into question in the same way as male victims. Rape, including using a foreign object, is an act of aggression, a way of demonstrating your power over the victim, it has very little to do with sex or sexuality.

I agree with you. It was merely a response to someone else's statement that brought the issue up because of some of the testosterone filled responses. My response was more comedic than factual. I am sorry if you got the wrong impression.

reply to post by maybereal11


I understand what your saying about the difficulties in ascertaining whether they are guilty or not and I can see the dilemma this causes.

However, this isn't really the point I'm arguing.

The point I am trying to make is I find it difficult to accept that people empathize/sympathize with terrorist's.

How can anyone feel sorry for someone that intends of killing hundreds of innocent civilians including men, women and children?

They should rot in hell in my opinion.

I'm not arguing about the usage of torture techniques or the fact that the prison guards are just as guilty for committing such offences.