What will it take for you to Stop Believing!? (Deity)

reply to post by Pathos


Pathos I could go back and show how your description of your belief was utterly confusing. You really did make it hard for me to try and figure out what you believed or even if you believed. Since you are now saying that you believe in a Deity I did go back through your posts and no where did you say what would cause you to stop believing in your current religious system or what would it take for you to not believe in your Deity.

You did NOT answer. I am not trying to sound rude but I did take a lot of time in my effort to accurately portray every post.


[edit on 2-8-2009 by TurkeyBurgers]

reply to post by fockewulf190


Look the only thing that pushes my buttons is that your response is difficult to interpret.

I am not sure if you are making it intentionally hard for me to figure out what you are saying to try and get me to inaccurately interpret or if you are just disgruntled that Science has not provided sufficient explanations to your questions or if there is a language barrier between us or if I am just missing something.

You are asking...

convince me that the building blocks of the universe, namely cosmic dust, has all the ingredients needed to create all what we see through our telescopes and all that we see on our planet, in all it´s mind-boggling complexity -fockewulf190

Are you asking for someone to prove Panspermia or Abiogenesis?

I am not sure exactly what would be proof to you. I do not want to put words into your mouth and assume so I will let you explain it better before I try and say the wrong thing.

I am glad you at least stated what would be considered proof to you though! I am REALLY glad. That is important to do!

We are making progress in this thread. I apologize for ridiculing the Star making DNA comment before.

Edit for your second post with the link in it.

That link to the Scientists trying to create life is AWESOME! Is that what you would consider proof for you to not believe in your Deity?

[edit on 2-8-2009 by TurkeyBurgers]

reply to post by Totakeke

I never said God is all there is. Matter isn't God; matter is matter.

Well, that's just taking silly to the extreme, either god is the creator of "everything" or god isn't which is it to be my friend ?

If god is not the creator of all that there is, then who or what exactly, created matter then ?

reply to post by Republican08


Here's the thing people seem to miss. Nobody that believes in God cares about ranting and pushing and trying to convince them that God doesn't exist. I've been skeptical of MANY aspects of religion, but I also happen to be related to a biologist that works for the state of CA and he and many of his coworkers have said MANY times that there is absolutely no scientific proof that God DOESN'T exist, and he has been a long time atheist. I don't understand religious people who push their beliefs on others any more than I understand athiests who try to push their beliefs. I understood even when I didn't believe in God in high school that the religious kids in school were happy with their belief so who the hell am I to try to make them unhappy?

[edit on 2-8-2009 by sliznut]

reply to post by Bigwhammy

So "at the drop of a hat" you will compromise your integrity to manipulate a woman, who takes her purity very seriously, just to selfishly satisfy your own lust .

No,

not unlike an xtian I will accept the beliefs of another person in order to get something, laid be that over a long period such as a marriage or just a casual fling.

Christians do this every day, they accept the beliefs of someone else EG the writers of the bibles or pastors in order to get to heaven.

No differences my friend, I'm certainly not manipulating anyone it is the way things are with humans. Blokes have a tenancy to get married for regular sex and some love, babes have a tenancy to get married for security and to reproduce. Very few women go for the penniless ugly bloke, that's the last thing they want their offspring turning out like, sad but true.

Christians get divorced at the same rate as non christians, so clearly there's nothing special about their marriage.

How many blokes actually like spending endless meaningless hour looking at shoes ? You got it none, they do things they don't necessarily want to or believe in just to have regular sex with the person of their choice.

Originally posted by phi1618
I think GOD is a more of a term than an individual, and i feel its up to the individual to find for themselves what GOD means to them. I myself do not follow any religion, i just believe in what i believe is right. Now what i believe i do not force onto others, i just keep it to myself and only share if asked.

This is the only thing you have said that I 100% agree with. It goes both ways. You are not going to convince a person of faith that God doesn't exist anymore than you are going to convince an atheist that God is real. Beliefs are individual. I personally do not attend any form of church, but I believe in a higher power. I don't push anything on anyone because I don't think anyone knows for sure what is really going on.

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by Bigwhammy

 

So "at the drop of a hat" you will compromise your integrity to manipulate a woman, who takes her purity very seriously, just to selfishly satisfy your own lust .

No,

not unlike an xtian I will accept the beliefs of another person in order to get something, laid be that over a long period such as a marriage or just a casual fling.

Christians do this every day, they accept the beliefs of someone else EG the writers of the bibles or pastors in order to get to heaven.

No differences my friend, I'm certainly not manipulating anyone it is the way things are with humans. Blokes have a tenancy to get married for regular sex and some love, babes have a tenancy to get married for security and to reproduce. Very few women go for the penniless ugly bloke, that's the last thing they want their offspring turning out like, sad but true.

Christians get divorced at the same rate as non christians, so clearly there's nothing special about their marriage.

How many blokes actually like spending endless meaningless hour looking at shoes ? You got it none, they do things they don't necessarily want to or believe in just to have regular sex with the person of their choice.

Well, one could say getting laid is a form of heaven.

Originally posted by TurkeyBurgers
reply to post by Pathos

 

Pathos I could go back and show how your description of your belief was utterly confusing. You really did make it hard for me to try and figure out what you believed or even if you believed. Since you are now saying that you believe in a Deity I did go back through your posts and no where did you say what would cause you to stop believing in your current religious system or what would it take for you to not believe in your Deity.

You did NOT answer. I am not trying to sound rude but I did take a lot of time in my effort to accurately portray every post.

So, you decided to judge everyone on the post's title. I would re-read the first post of this thread again. Instead of focusing only on the title, look at what the original poster is asking. Then read my posts again. You will find out that I DID answer his questions.

I don't think you can handle a Christian who has my type of perspective. It must frighten you.

See 5th post down:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

First post asks a series of questions:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Republican08
....

But these are questions that need answers by those especially here on ats to answer.

I'm a Christian and I answered them. His overall question is, "What drives mankind to believe?" When you read the title on the thread, its a question of anger, "What will it take for you to Stop Believing!?" He was upset that people believed in something, which is beyond his own comprehension. He then asked a 'series of questions', which he hoped to get a Christian perspective (but not in biblical form). I gave it to him.

[edit on 2-8-2009 by Pathos]

reply to post by Bigwhammy

The fact that you actually have the gall to believe "no offense" covers your sexual innuendo's toward a married woman (that values faithfulness).

No sexual innuendo was implied my friend, sorry to see you took it that way. I merely observed that this particular lady is very intelligent ( from reading what she has to say this is obvious) and equally beautiful , what man on the planet would not want to wake up every morning with a woman like that ?

I in no way made any reference to being unfaithful, if a he is married then her husband is one hell of a lucky dude, I bet he doesn't spend all day hearing all about the soap operas and what dick brain is going to win big brother.

Get off your high horse and lighten up BW, drooling over a woman and admiring great beauty are worlds apart.

Yes I do have the gall to believe that no "offense was intended" covers my intent, as no offense was intended If I didn't give a crap then I wouldn't have typed it.

For once in your life stop acting like a big girl, AD doesn't need you to come prancing along on a pink mare to save her. She's got a very good swede of her own and is quite capable of kicking my taffy arse without you trying desperately to hold her hand.

In addition, your treatment women as pieces of meat for your personal enjoyment is not even as disgusting as your utter disregard for their intellect

.


Misogyny is not my style matey boy, but very typical of how female are treated in your bibles, remember the bit about "The man is the head of the woman "? Need I go on ?

A Christian woman would see right through your pretense at belief.

Clearly you know very little about women then.

I implore you to repent because you will be judged by a Holy God.

Dude if there is creator of all that there is, then I cannot act in any other way than how I was created, this would negate the omnipresence of your god.

You own words and attitude are the fulfillment of Bible prophecy

Dude if a lawnmower fell on my head while I was taking a shower you'd find something in the bible and claim it prophesied the event.

reply to post by Pathos


Ok that is definitely fair. You did answer those questions. Could you answer the one that I think means the most though? For me pretty please? (I will be your best friend with sugar on top)

What would it take for you to stop believing (in a Deity).

I find this to be a very POWERFUL question. What determines proof for a person. I think that when a person says that there is absolutely nothing that will convince them it has the potential to become dangerous.

Originally posted by TurkeyBurgers
reply to post by badmedia

 

Oh man I about about to tear up. That really hurts me. Why would you intentionally hurt my feelings like that Badmedia? Are you trying to make me cry? Do you just want to tear my heart out?

30 Minutes Badmedia.

30 Minutes I spent on that post only to have you cast aside like a day old Subway sandwich like Jarred's fame. Like a cotton candy that fell in the dirt at the county fair. Like it means nothing to you. Like I mean nothing to you.

We are at a threshold. At a crossing point. I do not want it to end like this. I want us to make it work. Try with me BadmediA. Don't you quit on me.

What is there to comment on? Was not the post in question a review/summary of peoples responses with your own spin put on them? I haven't posted any comment because I didn't see anything to comment on.

If the point is simply that many people do not know god, but believe anyway then that is nothing new. Do many people believe without actually knowing or understanding the father? Yes. But so what? Plenty of people don't believe without knowing either. To me, both sides are the same.

In the end, I basically break down people into 3 groups. 2 of them have understanding. Those 2 are the righteous and the wicked. The wicked being those who know and understand but work to blind people to the truth. The 3rd group consists of atheists, agnostics, christians(and other religious people) who have no understanding at all. This group includes you and the majority of people. This group is actually blessed, because they are poor in spirit. They are poor in spirit because they do not know or understand the truth. But once the truth and understanding does come to them, then they will accept it and act accordingly. Thus, they are blessed.

The only people who really need to worry are the wicked. Because unlike you, and those christians who just believe(falsely in many cases), they actually already know the truth, and they choose to turn their back on it. So it's not like the truth coming to them is going to make a difference. However, these people can also at any time change their ways - and some will/have as part of the unveiling.

Revelation and Apocalypse both refer to a revealing of the truth. Meaning, the time period in which all is revealed for what they are. That has been going on for many many years, but hindsight is 20/20 so once all is done the truth will be revealed. The fact you are able to see the hypocrisy of the church and religion is part of that. What you haven't figured out yet is that those things are not what things are about, quite the opposite.

Just look at the claims they make about god. Obviously that is not godly at all. So which is more likely? God is actually like that, or they are false claims?

So really, I'm not sure what is to comment on. Yes, the majority of people in this world are blind. But are you going to use the beliefs and claims of others as a base for your own understanding? If not, what does it matter how people respond?

And btw, I asked the question before you posted. If you want to understand why I say there is nothing that will change my mind, then answer the question. Truth is, there is nothing that would make you believe that equation is true, because it is something you have an understanding of, and you know that it is false. Well, true knowledge of the holy is also understanding in the same exact manner.

So, what would it take to make you believe that 4+9=302?

reply to post by wylekat

Why, after years of prayer and just plain crying out, have my ills- my 'petty, minor ills' that to any deity would be no harder than a sneeze- why has NO ONE answered them?

Simply because jesus is imaginary, jesus doesn't give a crap about you, not because you've done something wrong but purely because he exists only in the imagination of christians.

However ---, but that's for another thread

Originally posted by TurkeyBurgers
reply to post by Pathos

 

Ok that is definitely fair. You did answer those questions. Could you answer the one that I think means the most though? For me pretty please? (I will be your best friend with sugar on top)

What would it take for you to stop believing (in a Deity).

I find this to be a very POWERFUL question. What determines proof for a person. I think that when a person says that there is absolutely nothing that will convince them it has the potential to become dangerous.

Sure.

What would it take for you to stop believing (in a Deity)?
Since I have been exposed to prior biblical literature, I can confess to you that I have had my moments. When I read the 'Great Flood" story in the book of "Gilgamesh", (which was written way before the Book of Genesis), I personally did start to question my faith. How can two stories exist with two different characters, but were written several decades apart from each other? Only someone who was completely blind would deny such conundrum. If more of the stories from the Book of Genesis were found elsewhere, (written before the biblical texts with different characters and slightly different tales), I would defiantly question the uniqueness of the bible. I know Jesus's characteristics were found in literary and historical figures, and that they were written or they ruled before Jesus's arrival. If some credible historian could connect the dots successfully, I would definitely question the basis of my faith.

If anyone is interested in finding similar stories to the Book of Genesis (but written by other cultures before the bible's existence), here is a small list:

The Ovid - You can find the Adam and Eve story and Great Flood. Just replace Adam, Eve, and God with other characters.

Gilgamesh - you can find the Great Flood story, but with a slight different slant. Almost word for word. Written way-way before the Book of Genesis.

Another similarity:
Hercules - was a mythological character who was half man and half god.
Jesus - was a biblical character who was half man and half god.

[edit on 2-8-2009 by Pathos]

reply to post by Pathos


A rose by any other name still smells the same.

The 2 stories are simply 2 expressions of the same understanding. It's like 1 person might say 2+2=4 and another may say 4+5=9. Both are true expressions of the same understanding. It is the understanding itself that is important, rather than the variables used for the expression.

Perspective is everything. Stick a statue in the middle of a square. Put 4 people on each side of it. Allow them to view the statue from only the single side, and then later ask each of them to describe the statue. Each will be seeing the same statue, but they each have different perspectives of it. They might even sit and argue about what it looks like. But only by looking at it from all 4 perspective can one understand what that statue truly was.

So when I see stories in the cultures that are alike, I always think - understanding is universal, the expressions change from the time, places and cultures.

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by Pathos

 

A rose by any other name still smells the same.

The 2 stories are simply 2 expressions of the same understanding. It's like 1 person might say 2+2=4 and another may say 4+5=9. Both are true expressions of the same understanding. It is the understanding itself that is important, rather than the variables used for the expression.

Perspective is everything. Stick a statue in the middle of a square. Put 4 people on each side of it. Allow them to view the statue from only the single side, and then later ask each of them to describe the statue. Each will be seeing the same statue, but they each have different perspectives of it. They might even sit and argue about what it looks like. But only by looking at it from all 4 perspective can one understand what that statue truly was.

So when I see stories in the cultures that are alike, I always think - understanding is universal, the expressions change from the time, places and cultures.

The only problem with your argument is that Gilgamesh existed 2,700 BC, and the Book of Genesis was written around 10 BC. That is a BIG leap. If you were to read the Gilgamesh and Noah's Arch stories simultaneously, almost the exact same words were used for both stories. The only differences can be found in the characters names and some slight variation in story.

[edit on 2-8-2009 by Pathos]

reply to post by Pathos


Sorry, what is the issue? Gilgamesh obviously came first. I thought it was common knowledge that the bible takes from many sources and such?

I don't think the bible is the word of god, and I'm not a Christian. I think organized religion is opposite of what is intended and so forth.

Don't mean to sound rude or anything, but if such a thing has influence on you, then you should probably just become agnostic. Blind belief is not a good thing, and agnostic would be an honest position for you. Being agnostic is not a bad thing, it's just being honest about your situation. To have belief without really understanding will in the end actually hinder you, as it stops you from seeking deeper and finding out for yourself etc.

Gotta be honest with yourself before any other things. Only hurt and fool yourself to not be honest about your situation. Which to me, is obviously that you do not know the father. While religion might tell you otherwise as a marketing spill, nothing less than a personal relationship with the father and your own understanding should do.

Check out proverbs 8 and 9, and psalm 82, 111. It's all about understanding, and it is possible for you to find the father early, rather than settling on the words of men as a replacement(accept the wicked). When you find the father, he will fill your treasures with understanding and wisdom, and then you will know for yourself rather than relying on the bible and such like this.

There is no shame in being honest, and those who would try and bring you shame for such a thing are the ones in error.

Good luck.

Originally posted by TurkeyBurgers
reply to post by fockewulf190

 

Look the only thing that pushes my buttons is that your response is difficult to interpret.

I am not sure if you are making it intentionally hard for me to figure out what you are saying to try and get me to inaccurately interpret or if you are just disgruntled that Science has not provided sufficient explanations to your questions or if there is a language barrier between us or if I am just missing something.

You are asking...

convince me that the building blocks of the universe, namely cosmic dust, has all the ingredients needed to create all what we see through our telescopes and all that we see on our planet, in all it´s mind-boggling complexity -fockewulf190

Are you asking for someone to prove Panspermia or Abiogenesis?

I am not sure exactly what would be proof to you. I do not want to put words into your mouth and assume so I will let you explain it better before I try and say the wrong thing.

I am glad you at least stated what would be considered proof to you though! I am REALLY glad. That is important to do!

We are making progress in this thread. I apologize for ridiculing the Star making DNA comment before.

Edit for your second post with the link in it.

That link to the Scientists trying to create life is AWESOME! Is that what you would consider proof for you to not believe in your Deity?

[edit on 2-8-2009 by TurkeyBurgers]

All I´m trying to say to you is, if you believe this universe exists without God running the show in the backround, then the answer to what causes matter to do what it does, including creating life, must exist in some type of physical form within the material that permiates the universe.

According to current theory, the Big Bang was a pretty hot event. But somewhere within that mass of multi-million degree fusion like plasma, or whatever it was, the natural blueprints for everything were somehow formed, and even more remarkably, survived the cauldrin. So, whatever natural game plan was started back then, it ended up blossoming into what we see today; the hundreds of billions of galaxies and all that is within them. Pretty damn impressive, and to the atheist, it´s all done without any spiritual or supernatural existence.

This however, also must mean that whatever natural plan was created, it is also well distributed throughout the physical material that makes up the contents of this universe. In a way, you could say that cosmic dust is the stem cell of the universe. And matter is doing a hell of a lot. It can create whole star systems and collectivate into galaxies. It can combine with other components. Form chemicals. Where conditions are suitable, it can form biological creations, and all the bells and whistles that goes along with that, from the materials at hand. It is also using forces such as gravity and perhaps dark energy and even dark matter, to help it do it´s job...admittingly forces and material we know little about.

No matter what though, if your an atheist, at some scale level, probably sub-atomic or smaller, there must be physical evidence within all matter that points to this natural phenomena that directs or pushes matter to do what it does.

So, if you can show some kind of physical evidence that matter does what it does according to a purely natural and non-spiritual process, then you would be able to defend your atheism with much more vim and vigor amongst those who don´t share your views. You would probably also make page one of The New York Times as well.

BTW, I´ll also count true artificial life as evidence as well.

Of course, if your brand of atheism is different from what I have written above, and is based on some other kind of theoretical concept as to how the universe became what it is today, then have at it.



[edit on 2-8-2009 by fockewulf190]

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by wylekat

 

Why, after years of prayer and just plain crying out, have my ills- my 'petty, minor ills' that to any deity would be no harder than a sneeze- why has NO ONE answered them?

Simply because jesus is imaginary, jesus doesn't give a crap about you, not because you've done something wrong but purely because he exists only in the imagination of christians.

However ---, but that's for another thread

OR you could be wrong and 1.3 billion of us could be right.

Originally posted by jon1

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by wylekat

 

Why, after years of prayer and just plain crying out, have my ills- my 'petty, minor ills' that to any deity would be no harder than a sneeze- why has NO ONE answered them?

Simply because jesus is imaginary, jesus doesn't give a crap about you, not because you've done something wrong but purely because he exists only in the imagination of christians.

However ---, but that's for another thread

OR you could be wrong and 1.3 billion of us could be right.

This could be the case my friend but I am open to the possibility of being wrong, 1.3 billion will not even consider this possibility.

1.3 billion people accept what someone else tells them is the way to live, requiring absolutely no evidence for it, as defined by faith. These peoples' faith is so fragile that they will not even consider investigating why they actually believe what they do.

I may be wrong or I may be right, at this moment faith is an absurdity to me, I require evidence of something before I accept it as valid.

So my friend including me there are5.475 Billion humans who do not agree with you and the 1.3 billion others that think like you.

Needless to say 5.475 are finding jesus to be either a very poor communicator (2009 years of attempting) or imaginary.

reply to post by moocowman

Very few women go for the penniless ugly bloke, that's the last thing they want their offspring turning out like, sad but true.

Wanna know what makes it even worse? The Christian women telling the ugly, penniless guy "God told me not to date you". Christian women are just like any other- they just hide behind their God, and laugh. They want a giant*ahem*, money, and good looks, and will stop at nothing, and step on whoever they wish to get it.

So, let the flames begin. I have a fire suit in the closet. Truth hurts- don't it, girls?

[edit on 2-8-2009 by wylekat]