What will it take for you to Stop Believing!? (Deity)

reply to post by badmedia


Ok Badmedia. I will answer your question. There is a catch though. After I answer it I want you to answer the same question.

So, what would it take to make you believe that 4+9=302?

I would take 4 objects (we will use apples for this demonstration) so 4 apples and 9 apples and put them into one large pile and count the number of apples in that pile.

If the number of apples that exist in the pile when I put 4 apples and 9 apples together is 302 then I would question my own sanity.

I would seek to validate that 4 apples and 9 apples combined together suddenly now makes 302 apples.

This could be validated by performing experiments using the STRICT guidelines of the Scientific Method.

I could set up an experiment that used a DOUBLE BLIND to ensure that no Bias would corrupt the data from the experiment.

I would publish these findings and compare them to other published experiments using measurement and mathematics.

I would seek to see other Humans Scientific Experiments to validate that Mathematics had suddenly been altered.

I would be able to repeat the Experiments that other had performed and compare their results to my results.

How do you like DEM apples? errrr...bananas.



[edit on 2-8-2009 by TurkeyBurgers]

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by Pathos

 

Don't mean to sound rude or anything, but if such a thing has influence on you, then you should probably just become agnostic. Blind belief is not a good thing, and agnostic would be an honest position for you. Being agnostic is not a bad thing, it's just being honest about your situation. To have belief without really understanding will in the end actually hinder you, as it stops you from seeking deeper and finding out for yourself etc.

Its not that easy. Even though I see conflicting evidence between literary sources, the bible could be flawed because it was made by man. It wasn't God who messed up the message. It was man who translated the word of God wrong. You don't abandon God when it wasn't his fault.

Second, I am aware of an external presence more than I would like to admit. Third, God holds the key to one simple question, "Who/What am I?"

[edit on 2-8-2009 by Pathos]

reply to post by Republican08


One thing would, and I will only say it on this site and no other.

A full scale Alien Invasion, that visibly takes over the world.

Since I know this won't happen any time soon, my faith is secure.

reply to post by Pathos


Great! I read you as not understanding that. I wish more people would get that. Other factors too, like it's been translated and other meanings are lost in time due to cultural changes. Like some people might say the mustard seed is not the smallest seed in the world when it was just used as a reference for that culture and time. If he had said some seed they didn't know or use, point would have been lost. And alot of stuff is allegorical, like moses and the sorcerers in the same way the Matrix movie is allegorical. Gotta search for the truth in it and see what it's trying to show etc.

Seems like you get that.

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers


hate to burst your little bubbleworld, "nothing" is an answer, and with reasons why make it an complete answer. You have asked if certain aspects of belief were proven to be false would we change our mind then, No, emphaticaly NO, as for centuries people have been trying to prove these very aspects as false. It has been proven only that some of the aspects used for belief in God has been altered by man, but the message itself still remains the same.

Throughout all known recorded history of man; belief in a supreme God has been the longest lasting single belief system with the same overall simple message. It has outlived all other gods, majicks, rituals, and self empoweredbeliefs as well as total random and chaotic evolution.

For the basic belief in a supreme God to have outlasted every other belief system known to man, there must be some real truth there, even in most agnostic and atheist rebuttals can be found in almost every known religion throughout our recorded history. So mabye there really isn't anything new under the sun that has not already been done.

Originally posted by TurkeyBurgers
reply to post by badmedia

 

Ok Badmedia. I will answer your question. There is a catch though. After I answer it I want you to answer the same question.

So, what would it take to make you believe that 4+9=302?

I would take 4 objects (we will use apples for this demonstration) so 4 apples and 9 apples and put them into one large pile and count the number of apples in that pile.

If the number of apples that exist in the pile when I put 4 apples and 9 apples together is 302 then I would question my own sanity.

I would seek to validate that 4 apples and 9 apples combined together suddenly now makes 302 apples.

How do you like DEM apples? errrr...bananas.

Honestly? I think you overcompensated a ton to promote your own bias. All that was needed, was - you would have to change my understanding. And there was somewhat of a personal lesson in that, because that is also what it would take for you to change. But no, instead you give me crap.

All the stuff about science this, reviews and such. That was nothing more than a bunch of you trying to promote your own views. And that you actually believed that I would not notice or let is slide is basically an insult, as you assume that I or others would not recognize it for what it is. By doing such, you imply that I'm too stupid to not see it.

It's not honest debate or discussion if you feel the need to put spin on your responses. You purposely avoided the meaning and point of the question, and I have no use or care for such things.

reply to post by Pappa_Bear


Ss you can plainly read in that link of mine that you posted I listed "Nothing". In fact it was one of the main answers given. I think it is about as great of an answer as "God telling me God does not exist" and "Finding out at death". Heck at least Agnostics are willing to admit they could be wrong. I can at least respect someone who is willing to ask questions rather than substantiate a belief system through pure stubbornness.

1) Everyone who has faith to all lose faith.
2) God saying that he does not exist.
3) Death and no afterlife.
4) Stars creating DNA
5) Nothing will change belief

I as an Atheist am more open to change than the Majority with a belief in a Deity in this thread.

Food for thought.

reply to post by badmedia


So Badmedia what would it take to make YOU believe that 4+9=302? I noticed that you referred to Science and The Scientific Method as "Crap". That really surprised me. Very unexpected. It should be a real treat to see what it will take for you to believe that 4 + 9 = 302?

All the stuff about science this, reviews and such. That was nothing more than a bunch of you trying to promote your own views.

I am not even sure how to respond to this statement Badmedia. Science exists to promote my own views? You lost me at Science = Crap.

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers


I have been where you are at now, I have questioned, studied, and researched, I have made a choice based on that as well as personal experiences. I still question tings, I still study and research and have had to change aspects of my belief, but the primary belief will remain for me.

I will also state that it took 40 years and a lot of personal experiences, yes sometimes I am a little slow to embrace something. I have learned one thing throughout all these years; Faith and Belief are very powerful concepts and you my friend are as rooted in those very concepts as any religious person.

It takes as much faith to believe that there is no God as it take to believe there is a God. More food for thought.

reply to post by Pappa_Bear


Faith without doubt is fanaticism. Belief that considers the question of authenticity to be non existent is not human. It goes completely against the human instinct that we are born with. From our very first steps to the first wording of "Why?".

The second that you say "There is nothing that can change my mind" is the second that you cash in your humanity.

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers


Science is not crap, your response was. Your only reason for saying all that stuff was simply a jab at "no proof of god" stuff. Nothing more, nothing less. In such a case, all you did was use science as a way of promoting your own bias.

You added all that stuff for no other reason. Don't bring the BS with me, I will call you out on it. I look for honest discussion, not this kind of crap. It was a simply question, and your purposely avoided the point of the question.

Outside the change of symbols, there is not really anything that could make me believe such a statement is true. Because it is contradictory to understanding. So, you would have to change my understanding and basically reality in itself to get me to change on it.

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers


Well by the way you post you seem to be very well educated, I have also noticed through your post that you seem to have had an religious background at some time. Assuming this is accurate, that would mean at some point in your life you had to make a choice in your beliefs. You seem to be very adamant as an Atheist, but I also sense more questions than answers. It is that way with religion as well, usualy any one thing explained gives more questions than answers.

That is why I said that it takes as much faith to believe there is no God as to believe there is a God.

I also don't feel that you are being fair to many posters here, a question was asked, answers given; for some reason you seem to feel that some answers are not good enough. Yes you have given those reasons more than once, and they appear to be personal opinions based on your logic.
Which causes me to think that you are not as open to the fact you could be wrong as you have stated.
Could that be due to some of the religious training you recieved or were pushed into at an earlier point in your life?
Just asking trying to understand where you coming from.

reply to post by wylekat

Christians, meanwhile have lied, cheated, stolen, mocked, and have done things I didn't even know were possible for the human mind to contemplate, let alone do. Christian women have used me for their own twisted purposes. They have destroyed me and broken my heart more times than I care think about- going for the hot guy who can give them money. Using me to get there.

God will never lie to you, He'll never cheat you, steal from you, or mock you. The things you mention are all because humans have a sinful nature. You can't blame Christianity for people treating you badly. Remember, just because someone calls themselves a Christian doesn't mean they are actually a true Christian (meaning they've accepted Christ and turned from their sin).

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by Totakeke

 

I never said God is all there is. Matter isn't God; matter is matter.

Well, that's just taking silly to the extreme, either god is the creator of "everything" or god isn't which is it to be my friend ?

If god is not the creator of all that there is, then who or what exactly, created matter then ?

God made matter, but He isn't matter.

reply to post by Totakeke

God will never lie to you, He'll never cheat you, steal from you, or mock you.

I need to split hairs on this comment- because some of what I have experienced HAS NOT been in the form of 'human intervention'. Some of it has been crap that has defied explanation, the laws of physics, and anything of a normal nature. Most recent example --->This last woman: one WEEK after I proposed, she gets sick, loses her home, and drops from the face of the earth. When my ex got married, I knew before I even heard it from someone. When I DID hear it- I heard an unearthly, hair raising, mind boggling SCREAM that seems only I heard. I have been tormented by visions (not dreams) of how her life has been going. Things that someone else confirmed for me. 100% accuracy of what I was seeing and what I was being told. It's like there's a mental bond- and to make things even crazier, I never did anything with her to FORM one (no sex).

Nearly the WHOLE time, I prayed and begged God to stop it. For years, I did this. It never quit. In fact, it got worse. It hurt me, and nearly drove me insane (or it did drive me insane, you be the judge). I have had relationships disintegrate. The women? GONE without a trace. I managed to fight the thoughts of my ex into submission- 2 months later, at a trip to Disney, I RUN INTO HER. I couldn't run away fast enough. Did praying to God help? NO. Did his people help? DOUBLE NO. In fact, they made it WORSE. I just wont go into the details, but suffice to say, I felt like I was comedy relief in a soap opera. I have tried VERY hard to get married no less than 2 dozen times- and finally, in sheer desperation, went for the 'I'll get you pregnant and I'll marry you' route- Dont ask what the outcome was. Suffice to say, there were more violations to natural laws NOT being able produce a child than I thought possible....

I have come to the following conclusions: a) God thinks this is funny, and is doing this to drive me nuts. b) God is punishing me for something- I dunno what, but it must have been a whopper c) God is trying to keep me in this state, because I am supposed to be with her- her marriage is somehow unlawful, and I should take her back (NOT happening. God can go find me someone else) d) There is no God, and somehow, one of us has violated the laws of causality and time... and basically ripped the universe a new one. e) I'm actually hallucinating this whole freaking mess..... f) I am being trained for something. Sinister or otherwise, I dunno, but it's doing me no good.

So, why has God done this to me? I didn't get any answers when I prayed, just fuzzy, happy thoughts of my ex- literally forced on me- that make me want to vomit and rip my own brain out. It's been bad enough to send me on crying jags. I have actually tried to knock myself unconscious... And yes, I have had brain scans. I am normal (whatever that is).

Now, having told my sad, weird and frightening tale, I will bet $10 NOT A ONE OF YOU CHRISTIANS can even begin to tell me what the deal is, minus the fact I have splinters in the windmills of my mind. I have run this past every last one I know- and I get 1 of 2 camps: Boggled minds, and ridicule, because their minds boggle, but they wouldn't dare admit it.

So- Now the ball is in your collective courts. Pray. Plead. Invite God over for tea and discuss it. Run the Bible up, down, and sideways. Call your pastors. Call anyone you want. I will guarantee- GUARANTEE - Not a single one of you will get a clear, concise answer to this. BTW- here's what I'll need as absolute proof you're not trying to bum steer me: I want her name. I want you to be able to tell me my ex's name. I'll take that as proof positive you aren't just spouting crap out your rear. It'll make me wanna puke- but it's better than " I am thinking of a number between x and y".

Let it begin, then.

reply to post by wylekat


So, you would like all us christians to ask God (the one you don't believe in) to come and put your life back in order.

OK. I'll pray for you.

Well, I am a (non)believer. Yup, there's a force, and it's just plain bad.

I've been to one of these 'healing' things- One word: SHILL. There isn't healing because THERE ISN'T. It's all a gimmick to pull in more money.

All I'd have is your WORD that 'God' is real- and I wouldn't trust a Christian as far as I could spit one.

Christianity. All I have experience with IS Christians- and lemme tell you- a nastier bunch of people I am not sure I have ever met. Been pulling knives out of my back now for well over 20 years.

Christians, meanwhile have lied, cheated, stolen, mocked, and have done things I didn't even know were possible for the human mind to contemplate,

Simply because jesus is imaginary, jesus doesn't give a crap about you, not because you've done something wrong but purely because he exists only in the imagination of christians.

AMEN.

[edit on 3-8-2009 by jon1]

Originally posted by Totakeke

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by Totakeke

 

I never said God is all there is. Matter isn't God; matter is matter.

Well, that's just taking silly to the extreme, either god is the creator of "everything" or god isn't which is it to be my friend ?

If god is not the creator of all that there is, then who or what exactly, created matter then ?

God made matter, but He isn't matter.

So where did the stuff (energy particle/waves) that god made matter from come from ?

reply to post by jon1

So, you would like all us christians to ask God (the one you don't believe in) to come and put your life back in order. OK. I'll pray for you.

So why don't you and a few other xtians take this opportunity to help out Wyekat ?

How about conducting an online experiment right here on ATS ?

You and some other xtians (2 or more) can gather together in jesus' name, and ask jesus to pay a visit to Wyekat. Jesus promised he would do "whatever" you asked, so he's hardly going to break his promise.

While your at it, can you get jesus to eradicate this swine flu, as it is rampant around here and causing a great deal of misery even to christians.


You know what guys if you conduct this experiment with good result I may start taking you a little more seriously myself.


Anyone got any ideas on how we can have a control on this experiment should the xtians have the balls to take the jesus god up on is promise ?



Sorry for the speeling - Wylekat

[edit on 3-8-2009 by moocowman]

reply to post by moocowman


For their swine flu and say there is a mass praying, and if it turns out for the worst, they will say god has a plan.

Or if it becomes like a regular flu, then they'll say aha god fixed it.

Lose either way.

Remember when those groups cross country gathered around gas stations praying the price goes down, well it did eventually, but I suppose the demand and oppurtinity and prices didn't fluxuate, god did it.

Well if he can do that, it'd be wonders in africa!

As for me I want noone praying for me, you saw the templeton studies with heart surgery! No way jose.

If you want to make a real controlled study, it'd take much more then one post.

I'd say find three atheistic people on the boards, for group effect.

And pray for one of them, without tellin which one they are being prayed for.

Now, whilst all three atheist are being prayed for, all are oblivious to the fact one is being prayed for, none know of the study being conducted.

Now, there must be a 'proof' of past recording of who it is, then if someone converts it can have an ahah!

although, there would have to be an extremely, extremely tight study on the proof, because you can say all three were there, and if one changed, they had the name already up there.

Although I sincerely doubt any would change, from a non knowing prayer. lol

Originally posted by moocowman

Originally posted by Totakeke

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by Totakeke

 

I never said God is all there is. Matter isn't God; matter is matter.

Well, that's just taking silly to the extreme, either god is the creator of "everything" or god isn't which is it to be my friend ?

If god is not the creator of all that there is, then who or what exactly, created matter then ?

God made matter, but He isn't matter.

So where did the stuff (energy particle/waves) that god made matter from come from ?

It didn't come from anywhere, God created it.