What will it take for you to Stop Believing!? (Deity)

reply to post by moocowman


If only it were that easy moocowman.
You can't just put Jesus in a box and get him out whenever you need him.
Jesus says "do not put me to the test" YES, i know it seems very convenient but that is in scripture.

Also, All prayers are not answered in the way we would like. Jesus is more concerned with what is on a persons heart than anything else.
I don't think asking for a life long sex partner is at the top of the agenda here.
Whenever i pray for people even with 100% faith that Jesus will answer the prayer, it is not allways answered. At least not in the way i expected.

No, doing experiments on here is not the way to go. He needs help on a secular level as well. he needs someone he can trust (That rules us christians out) someone that he can talk these issues out with. with his attitude towards God at the moment i have little faith that he will answer my prayers.
The only prayer i would offer up at the moment is that God would soften his heart.

Sorry to dissapoint you but that is just my 2 cents worth.

Originally posted by Totakeke

Originally posted by moocowman

Originally posted by Totakeke

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by Totakeke

 

I never said God is all there is. Matter isn't God; matter is matter.

Well, that's just taking silly to the extreme, either god is the creator of "everything" or god isn't which is it to be my friend ?

If god is not the creator of all that there is, then who or what exactly, created matter then ?

God made matter, but He isn't matter.

So where did the stuff (energy particle/waves) that god made matter from come from ?

It didn't come from anywhere, God created it.

So god created "everything" we are in agreement at last whoopee doo.

So then (correct me if I'm wrong) you are claiming that although the creator, created everything it is not "everything". There is something that the creator created is aware of but is not in control of ?

It created something that would act in a manner beyond it's control ?

Then this would preclude the omnipresence of god.

If god does indeed have ultimate control of all actions and all is part of gods plan/design, well then out the window goes autonomy. No free will for you young man.

You simply cannot have it both ways an omnipresent creator immediately precludes "free will", free will then becomes an imaginary construct.

reply to post by jon1

If only it were that easy moocowman. You can't just put Jesus in a box and get him out whenever you need him. Jesus says "do not put me to the test" YES, i know it seems very convenient but that is in scripture.

Well according to jesus it is quite a straight forward process.

Matthew 18:19 Jesus says : Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

So there you go, jesus didn't say at the end of his instruction, "Ah well, but it wont' work if--"

He clearly clearly stipulates any requirements that are needed right there, no ifs or buts.

Now then I'm not asking for myself I'm not the one looking for jesus to appear, but the other poster has and jesus hasn't.

So let's take jesus at his word and help a brother out.

Here again jesus is quite specific, no mention of pulling him out of a box, again no ifs or buts.

Mark 11:24: Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Do we take jesus at his word, or do we invent things that he didn't say, bearing in mind he clearly says "anything".

So, why doesn't jesus finish off with -

"Ah well, when I say anything, I don't actually mean anything, I actually mean anything that is not on this long list of what I don't mean"

Clearly then, if what jesus is promising here needed adding to, he would have done so at the time, we are talking about an omnipresent inerrant god after all!

Needless to say, anyone that would imply different meaning to what jesus had to say is obviously implying that their god is not to be taken literally.

If then these scriptures are not to be taken at face value and literal, then clearly they require interpretation.

The question then remains who has the authority to take the actual words of jesus, and claim he really mean that but meant "whatever" ?

It is an insult to a god, to claim that said god failed to communicate what it actually meant and requires a man to interpret what it said.

reply to post by moocowman


so with your way of thinking, if i prayed for a pink elephant to fly over my house now, it should happen.

It's not like that my friend. Not all prayers are answered anyway and we do not have any control over which ones are and which ones arn't.

Let me put this to you.
If you had £10 and said to your child "ask and you can have anything you want for this amount of money" Then your child said "I want a bottle of what that man has there because it makes him laugh and fall over"
Would you uphold YOUR promiss?
NO, because you only want to give your children what is good for them.
And when you made your first statement you assumed that they would not have asked for a bottle of whisky.
Did YOU fail to communicate with your child??

If then these scriptures are not to be taken at face value and literal, then clearly they require interpretation.

Yes they do but by a christian who uses the gifts of the spirit to do so, and the ones that would be used here are Wisdom and Knowlege.

If you believe that jesus would have asked of his father what you are asking him, then go ahead and pray. If not then neither would i.

So you can try and use scripture word for word but you also have to use your common sense as well. Thats why God gave it to us.


Just to answer a couple of other points.....

Matthew 18:19 Jesus says : Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

He clearly stipulates any requirements that are needed right there, no ifs or buts.

WRONG. IF two of you agree on earth......

Mark 11:24: Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

The word to look for here is BELIEVE.
If i prayed for the pink elephant i don't BELIEVE it would appear.

Ah well, when I say anything, I don't actually mean anything, I actually mean anything that is not on this long list of what I don't mean"

Like a bottle of whisky....










[edit on 3-8-2009 by jon1]

[edit on 3-8-2009 by jon1]

[edit on 3-8-2009 by jon1]

Sorry, double post






[edit on 3-8-2009 by jon1]

reply to post by moocowman


You missed his heart warming "christian response". Same response I have gotten for years- with an added twist of 'How dare you assault MY faith, you little snot'.

Like I said last post- This is one of the 2 usual responses I get. Who in their right mind is gonna follow a deity with followers like THAT? Not me. Not any more. I am outta this thread. Christians, you can keep your faith, and keep your God, because If the afterlife is filled with (censored) like you-

FORGET IT.

reply to post by wylekat


Faith in God doesn't equate to faith in humanity. If there was a tiny rain cloud that followed you around (even indoors), that'd be God's way of taunting you. Anything done by people, cannot be traced to be God's fault. Yes they are direct results of him but last time I checked, there is no warranty on any model that was ever made. This is done wisely because he'd have his hands full with recalls due to all the defects that would be called in .

I used to think just like you "God is taunting me and putting all these things together just to mock me further" however, there comes a point when the world #'s on you enough times that you don't care what you smell like anymore. Its probably not the best thing in the world for a person's "emotional developement" but it happens anyway.

[edit on 3-8-2009 by Eitimzevinten]

reply to post by jon1

so with your way of thinking, if i prayed for a pink elephant to fly over my house now, it should happen.

I don't make the decision what you pray for dude be it a pink elephant or healing od gout jesus clearly says "whatever" no ifs or buts. You either take jesus at his word or you don't.


Jesus says in Matthew 21:21:

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

So there you go, the same amount of faith is required for a pink elephant a mountain or the elimination of hives.

That is straight from jesus' own lips "I tell you the truth", unless of course it wasn't.

It's not like that my friend. Not all prayers are answered anyway and we do not have any control over which ones are and which ones arn't.

Well either you are lying or jesus is -

Mark 11:24: Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Let me put this to you. If you had £10 and said to your child "ask and you can have anything you want for this amount of money" Then your child said "I want a bottle of what that man has there because it makes him laugh and fall over" Would you uphold YOUR promiss?

Why are you deflecting the question onto me ? I'm not omnipresent your answer lays with the one that is, so ask him. What does jesus have to say about it ? , let's see -


Mark 11:24: Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours

There you go my friend, you may not like jesus' answer but there it is plain as day "whatever" .

NO, because you only want to give your children what is good for them. And when you made your first statement you assumed that they would not have asked for a bottle of whisky. Did YOU fail to communicate with your child??

Dude, if I only wanted to give my kids what is good for them then I simply would. If I were omnipresent I would know exactly what they would ask for before I go making any promises.

Needless to say I am not omnipresent so I cannot know why the god that had slaughtered babies to suit his eternal plan would make such a promise.
I can however observe, that the promise is there in black and white spoken by jesus himself who clearly says "I tell you the truth" so he's obviously not lying about it.

Once again -

John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all:


"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.


Clearly from Jesus' use of "Whatever" and "Anything" if you'd believed you get the pink elephant then you clearly would.

Jesus clearly does not say, "sometimes" or "maybe" or "only if", he clearly puts the responsibility of what you pray for on "YOU", as (hopefully) you are not a child who would ask for a pink elephant that could fall on your head and kill you. But if you asked and believed then you surely would.

The options that are now left open to you are that -
A) Jesus lied

B) Jesus is imaginary

C) You do not believe what he promised

D) Who ever wrote the gospels got it completely wrong.

So, what we actually do know as fact -

You cannot even contemplate (A) because you cannot contemplate (B)

That leaves us with (C) and (D) -

You either do not believe or whoever wrote the gospels got it completely wrong, which would imply that jesus failed to be understood.


Not rocket science is it my friend ?

Originally posted by wylekat
reply to post by moocowman

 

You missed his heart warming "christian response". Same response I have gotten for years- with an added twist of 'How dare you assault MY faith, you little snot'.

Like I said last post- This is one of the 2 usual responses I get. Who in their right mind is gonna follow a deity with followers like THAT? Not me. Not any more. I am outta this thread. Christians, you can keep your faith, and keep your God, because If the afterlife is filled with (censored) like you-

FORGET IT.

My heart goes out to you dude sorry to hear you've had such a bad (but not uncommon) experience of xtianity.

Well if there is a creator of everything my friend, I find it highly unlikely that it inspired the religion of xtianity.

reply to post by moocowman


You are going over the same questions again that i have answered.

Is it to much for you to hear the truth and you can't handle it, or is it a matter of you not understanding plain english.

If you are so lacking in knowlege about something you are arguing against, ie prayer. Why dont you pin your ears back and listen for a change instead of trying to be a smart ar## about the subject.

Your posts are so repetative that they are becoming boring and to be truthfull, I think most people on here are fed up with your stupid posts.

Take the blinkers off my friend and take a wider look at life instead of having this pathetic mission in life to try and outsmart everyone with your flawed logic.

I have met some ignorent people before on these boards but you win hands down with your total lack of knowlege of what you are talking about..

You have now been awarded the honour of being the first person in three years to be the subject of my ignore button.

Peace at last....


















:bnghd::bnghd:

reply to post by moocowman


I am sorry that you just got ignored Moocowman. I thought that you made a VERY valid, intelligent and appropriate post.

You lost control of your emotion at the point that you said "Not rocket science is it my friend ?". That could be taken as being condescending.

Your argument of what Jesus said was 100% correct. If we take the EXACT phrase and do not put a spin on it that fits our specific interpretation, or make excuses for it, simply take it at face value we really DO get two choices.

Jesus Lied, or whoever copied down the words of Jesus got it wrong.

You can say "Well this is what it means" which is exactly the reason why there are so many different branches of Christianity based on the Bible. Disagreements over what the actual words mean or over the intent of the words. Interpretation.

I am willing to say that yes, the people who copied these words down could have copied them incorrectly.

Are you willing to admit that the words could have been copied down incorrectly jon1?

Are you willing to admit that Man is capable of making errors in dictation?

reply to post by jon1

Is it to much for you to hear the truth and you can't handle it, or is it a matter of you not understanding plain english.

Well thanks for the ignore thing, no I do not relate to circular reasoning and that is why you've not actually answered anything you have just voiced your opinion which is contrary to the words of jesus.

YOU say to me - "Is it to much for you to hear the truth "

Yet jesus says " I tell you the truth"

It would appear that it is you that cannot handle the truth my friend, which is you you reallly don't have any faith as required by your god.

Ignore = run away from what you fear ?

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

I am sorry that you just got ignored Moocowman. I thought that you made a VERY valid, intelligent and appropriate post.

Hey dude diolch (thanks) for that, it's not easy for someone with practically zero education such as myself to put into words what is in my swede.

That is the first ignore (as far as I'm aware) that I've got but I believe speaks volumes for apologists (?) such as john. I've come across this run away (I could be wrong about jon) thing loads of times with xtians unfortunately.

I fail to see how someone can read a passage which says "I am the inventor and owner of numbers 2+2 = 4" then turn around and say "well what that really means is ---" and still be expected to be taken seriously.

it is common knowledge that jesus did "sometimes " speak in parable and allegory, but there is clearly not a hint of that here, and if there was it would unusual for the character not to explain.

You lost control of your emotion at the point that you said "Not rocket science is it my friend ?". That could be taken as being condescending.

I take your critique on board and will endeavor to learn by it, now you point out my lack of emotional control I can see it, and would agree to condescending nature of my response.

Your argument of what Jesus said was 100% correct. If we take the EXACT phrase and do not put a spin on it that fits our specific interpretation, or make excuses for it, simply take it at face value we really DO get two choices. Jesus Lied, or whoever copied down the words of Jesus got it wrong.

This I think is a conclusion that many xtians arrive at (those that read the passages that is) but are psychologically ill equipped to deal with, becaus it doesn't fit in with their indoctrination.

You can say "Well this is what it means" which is exactly the reason why there are so many different branches of Christianity based on the Bible. Disagreements over what the actual words mean or over the intent of the words. Interpretation. I am willing to say that yes, the people who copied these words down could have copied them incorrectly.

Well after all is said and done no one can really know because -

We do not know 100% if jesus was a real person or which of the many jesuses (jesi ?lol)


We nor anyone else alive today were there.

However one thing that piques my iterest in these verses, the what ifs.

What if those verses which are very short were copied correctly, obviously implying, the man jesus to be a real character who was indeed quite smart.

Why did they slip through the net of the controlling scriptural sensors ?

Surely the last thing the early church fathers would want would be the sheeple having a direct line to god ?

Or was this guy jesus so smart, that he knew that hiding something so unbelievable in plane sight would ensure the continuation of the message till it fell upon the right ears.

You got to admit that those verses are so magic wand, they have to be very scary for xtians to contemplate and completely laughable to non believers.

But here's the thing and call me mad if you wish, but those verses speak to me of quantum physics (not that I know too much about the subject) and creation by intent.

How different is "Whatsoever you ask believing ---" from "The particle experiment seems to be influenced by the expectations of the observer"

And in the words of the jedi master Quigon jinn to the young Anakin Skywalker -

" Always remember young padawan your focus determines your reality"

(Jinn is an interesting name to give a jedi no ? not too differnt from djinn)

I'll take a break here as I seem to be off down the rabbit hole lol

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

Are you willing to admit that the words could have been copied down incorrectly jon1?

Are you willing to admit that Man is capable of making errors in dictation?

Yes,
But, the problem for me is that i don't EVER use scripture in any of my posts. what is the point when talking to someone that is not filled with the Holy Spirit, the one who lets us see the meaning behind the words.
You can read scripture one day and it means something and six months later you can read the same scripture and the meaning will have a different slant on it. Thats how it is.

The problem with this thread is that the scriptures are being read by someone who is not guided by God so everything is black and white to them.
I have answered questions, but to no avail. we could just go around in circles all day long because we both have different understandings of what we are reading.

Hope this answers your question..

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by jon1

 

Jesus says in Matthew 21:21:

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.


That is straight from jesus' own lips "I tell you the truth", unless of course it wasn't.


Well either you are lying or jesus is -

Mark 11:24: Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Mark 11:24: Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.


Jesus clearly does not say, "sometimes" or "maybe" or "only if", he clearly puts the responsibility of what you pray for on "YOU", as (hopefully) you are not a child who would ask for a pink elephant that could fall on your head and kill you. But if you asked and believed then you surely would.

The options that are now left open to you are that -
A) Jesus lied

B) Jesus is imaginary

C) You do not believe what he promised

D) Who ever wrote the gospels got it completely wrong.

So, what we actually do know as fact -

You cannot even contemplate (A) because you cannot contemplate (B)

That leaves us with (C) and (D) -

You either do not believe or whoever wrote the gospels got it completely wrong, which would imply that jesus failed to be understood.


Not rocket science is it my friend ?

I think you are stacking the Deck.
There are other options, that you leave out.
The flaws and spiritual imperfection in Humanity.
In all those quotes there are specific requirements and you don't include the context in which Jesus refers to the nature of prayer and exactly what one prays for.
That one truely believes, that one truely does not doubt in regards to what they will recieve spiritually from God.

I can't see how you missed that, it is right in front of you IN JESUS' own words. I mean, it ain't rocket science, is it?

Of course though, this is quite convienient for Jesus because he has the fall back position of "Well, you just don't believe enough or You must doubt me etc so no I won't be giving you the Pink elephant you prayed would fall on that moocowomen".

I guess we would now have to consider what Jesus said about being true and without doubt.

But I think it is fair to point out that there are certain conditions required in prayer and the whole "ask and ye shall recieve scenario".

It is important to note that Jesus himself prayed and asked God: "if it be possible, let this cup pass from me" (Matt. 26:39).
Jesus also noted in his prayer that in asking:"Not my will, but thine, be done." So there is no liscence to simply pray for something, and as a mandotory consequence it will be recieved.
James also highlights the nature of this by saying"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts” (James 4:3).

Moocowoman, while you are correct in pointing out the words of Jesus, and praying, asking and recieving as being misunderstood or written wrong, your Bias in not investigating or looking for exactly what Jesus says is worth asking for is poor form and quite frankly a little immature as arguements go, but considering your hatred for christians I fully understand the blind nature of your crusade.

When asking for things in prayer, Jesus makes it quite clear what it is he is refering to.
I haven't been near a church in years, nor read a bible and I easily found this just after reading your post.
' "How much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13
John 15:7, "If ye abide in me and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."

So when you pray moocowoman that all christian die, remember this: So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live, For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. (Romans 8:10-14).

Your spiritual obligations are to put away all earthly desires, so that then you can ask God for heaps of cool spiritual stuff. I think that rules out Lotto, a Ferrari etc.

Pretty simple hey, after all it ain't rocket science.



[edit on 4-8-2009 by atlasastro]

reply to post by atlasastro


Thank you for your contribution.
others allways seem to explain things better than i can.

reply to post by Republican08


republican,
as to your question about why people feel a need to believe in a creator,
i think that evolutionarily, it made sense for much of mankind's history to believe in a god. across the world we had various tribes of people with various religions that all had one thing in common; a very necessary herd mentality. at one time religion kept tribes strong by keeping us elitist and hopeful, optimistic even, in a very dangerous, and sometimes cruel world. we didn't always have the faculties of understanding that we've now attained. it was difficult for us to understand why these uncaring forces of nature kept causing us so much pain. but if you have hope, even if only for a better afterlife, then you tend to keep planting the potatoes.

i'm not sure if i'm explaining this correctly... i may have to try again after i've had a bit of sleep....
but i mean that a belief in god was necessary in much the same way that a belief in a flat eart was once necessary. to know that the world was round couldn't have possibly done anything but give us a lot of pointless worry during a time when we hadn't the foggiest clue about the nature of gravity. i mean, what good would it do for an early man to spend his life holding on to the ground because he's afraid he'll fall off of the ground?

i think that the important thing is to realize that a belief in god has not only become completely pointless, but has long since become a burden and a disease to humanity.
the only possible need left for theism is lack of education.

so, i guess in response to the question posed in the subject line, i think education is the only possible thing that will ever end this insanity.

unfortunately, you can't force education on someone...

hmm...maybe we could start an atheistic "church" with which we can recruit members by showing off how much more fulfilled and happy our lives have become without god? the opposite seemed to work well for theist throughout the centuries

(hopefully the sarcasm is apparent in the last paragraph)

Originally posted by asmall89
reply to post by Republican08

 

I have a question for you personally, actually for all Atheists, would it bother you if there is some form of a God?

it would bother me quite a bit actually.

basically, that bastard would have a lot of explaining to do.
i finally became firm in my atheism when i came to the realization that, if there were a god, i would absolutely want nothing to do with him/her/it.

and i sincerely hope that he/she/it would feel the same about me.

reply to post by atlasastro

It is important to note that Jesus himself prayed and asked God: "if it be possible, let this cup pass from me" (Matt. 26:39).

Clearly then, the fact that jesus questions the possibility makes it quite clear that he is not omnipresent and not one and the same entity as Yahweh.