However I read three synopsis's before I tried to make it thru that piece of work.
I am also familiar with objectivism and I will say again here that it is extremism.
In fact the entire concept is not based upon reality, for one modern civilization can not exist as Rand sees fit.

Producers or earners do not expire as a group, they are replenished with every successive generation. The nature of business it self ensures that every hole made will be filled by a person who is not disheartened or any of the like.So the notion that all the genius ELITES will just give up fails to recognize human psychology, succession and feats.

Where the hell do you think the music you listen to comes from? An entitled rich person? Hell no, its a regular person who practices for a decade or more, free of pay
because they want to do it... People succeed because they are driven, when one spot is vacated a new occupant takes place.

So yes RANDS notions are based upon fantasy, ego and her own formulations.

When it is all said and done I really think what you invite is a purer more potent for of tyranny. Taking ranks with the ELITES in these financial matters while citing SMALL BUSINESS... HOW did that Trillion $ tax cut work for our economy?
Besides doubling the capital base of the top 1% in less then ten years, what good did it produce.

I know, it made then richer and bolder because they have agents such as you doing their leg work. It is very easy to throw rocks and neglect the initial circumstances as I see everyday.

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
reply to post by mental modulator

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However I read three synopsis's before I tried to make it thru that piece of work.
I am also familiar with objectivism and I will say again here that it is extremism.
In fact the entire concept is not based upon reality, for one modern civilization can not exist as Rand sees fit.

It is a theory nothing more, it is not meant to be taken as a blueprint of a perfect world. The point of the book was that people were introduced to her theory of Objectivism in the book The Fountain Head. So she responded to the request by writing Atlas Shrugged.

What is happening in that book is what is happening before our eyes. The robber barons are getting richer and the everyday people are getting poorer.

Certainly this is happening, but we see the source cause differently. I see that we have lost control of our government because of PRIVATE interests. They write their own laws
because they fund the system of elections, however public funding might be misconstrued as SOCIALISM. The market went SO drastically south because three senators penned a bill which was intended to expand private interaction and in turn let business police it self, IT WAS AN ACT OF RELEASING FEDERAL CONTROL that was the initial catalyst. So it strikes me down that you are a supporter of continuing this notion
of bequeathing the SAME entities with more power. IT assumes that these Business's will not take advantage of their POWER again. Yet the nature of business is to grow, expand and profit as much as possible. We just saw the death of many of these machines in action, strangled by their own freedoms.

Producers or earners do not expire as a group, they are replenished with every successive generation. The nature of business it self ensures that every hole made will be filled by a person who is not disheartened or any of the like.So the notion that all the genius ELITES will just give up fails to recognize human psychology, succession and feats.

Some what true, but when you take away the reward of succeeding less people strive to succeed, and then you end up with the same problem of dynasty's and a new class of elites.

Like I said with the musician example... I have been playing for thirteen years, my band practiced 26 days in JUNE and there are NO guarantees, however I work TWO jobs and find time... Mankind does not operate in the way you have presented, I have had ZERO reward and in fact am stepping it up relentlessly, PRODUCING better songs, my guys are too.

And I don't care about the new class of Elites for the time being, I am concerned about this active one...

Where the hell do you think the music you listen to comes from? An entitled rich person? Hell no, its a regular person who practices for a decade or more, free of pay
because they want to do it... People succeed because they are driven, when one spot is vacated a new occupant takes place.

You are correct on that notion.

So yes RANDS notions are based upon fantasy, ego and her own formulations.

Atlas Shrugged was a work a fiction not truth, as I stated above. When you see people referencing this book they are referring to the lead up of the high earners to stop working the higher paying jobs and thus making cutting off the revenue stream of the government and robber barons.

I understand, but you need to understand where Rand came from, she was angry.
Her father and his experiences was likely the basis of her theories and characters
antagonists. Soviet Russia resulted via the revolution, which lead to the Collapse of the Elite structure of Russia and it ruling class. Her father was successful and was a victim of EXTREME leftist ideology run mad. NO doubt she disliked what this did
to her family and their way of life, however she went to the other extreme which is psychologically justifiable. But to think of forcing any of this upon the US political system is ludicrous, we do not have death squads, riots or unavoidable food shortages.
HER ideas were born of things you or I have never seen, so to consider the resulting traumatic reaction as a viable option makes no sense to me.

This nation is free because the right and left keep eachother in check, DO NOT fool yourself by believing there is a formula.
You extinguish the right or the left and Tyranny will come sure as the sun.

When it is all said and done I really think what you invite is a purer more potent for of tyranny. Taking ranks with the ELITES in these financial matters while citing SMALL BUSINESS... HOW did that Trillion $ tax cut work for our economy?
Besides doubling the capital base of the top 1% in less then ten years, what good did it produce.

You are in favor of a progressive tax. A progressive tax allows things like this to happen. A progressive tax allows the government to dictate behavior. Like giving tax subsidies to farmers to not grow food, so their corporate buddies like Monetso(sp?) to continue to push out smaller local farmers.

Yes and it also has its benefits, I can get the tomatoes I love in winter, which supports my local grocery store, which pays my neighbor.

That is also the way it will work with this cap and trade bill if it passes. Politicians that are invested in these business will make lots of money and give themselves a tax subsidy to make the business profitable.

I do not disagree with you on this, I only disagree when people us politics as a REASON to attack science. My father was the department chair of a major university ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCE until his passing. I am VERY familiar with environmental exchange, so an attack on certain things indicates an attack on his life work.
However arguing the merits of cap n trade are fair game to me and I see your point.

A progressive income tax is a form of control and as you can see it does not work it only increases the wealth of "elites". Whether you cut taxes on the rich or increase taxes on the rich, the "elites" only get richer. A progressive tax only hurts poor and middle class people, but creating a barrier to entry so people can not start their own businesses and compete with the bigger business.

well here we disagree, but considering you are against government programs it makes sense. I however think it is a guise to appeal to everyday pride, your assertion would have applied to any combination of taxation options, the fallacy is in citing the same results for each variable.

Like the other poster up above you have it backwards. You are doing the "elites" leg work for them. The circumstances you see everyday are the same ones I see everyday.

How so? I am for minimum wage - repeal of such would benefit elites.

Progressive taxation - which would cut the bottom line of such entities

And in only ONE sector I would be for socialization - healthcare, which is why the HMO's
and big Pharm are dropping MEGA bucks pushing the evils of socialism... In this case you are RESERVING the elite POWER at the expense of the ill and YOU.

The government created the high health care cost by only paying 20% to doctors and hospitals of people that have Medicaid. In turn the insured and people able to pay make up the other 80% that the government does not pay.

exactly, so let us go all the way and cut Hundreds of Billions in stipends, bonuses and advertisements out.

The government are the ones that are morally bankrupt and will not change IP laws so Big Phrama can no longer patent drugs and medicine. The government has caused all the problems that you are looking at today.

And which party and by default ideology does that?

They have failed to do their duty and break down monopolies, they have failed in their duties to oversee the financial markets and make sure the situation we are going through never happened.

Same as above... Which party blocked investigation in gas gouging last summer?
not my ideology..

What you fail to realize is that the situations you see everyday is failed socialist policies. The problems everyone sees today is the problem of a huge government run amok.

I see it as uncheck greed run amok, which taints government... The greed is the static
factor in all failing societies, including FASCIST ones.

Open your eyes, Section 8, medicare, WIC, EIC, public schools, are all socialist policies. America is just as much socialized as Europe.

Until public human waste disposal is sanctioned, then yes you are right.
I will remind you that restricting access to education has been the favorite tool of
the ELITES since the dawn of civilization. Public education is part EVERY civilized
sovereignty.

I'll state this again the problems you see everyday is the direct result of government intervention. The system that you favor is more horrible than the one we have now.

I favor a system that works and ensures that people do not die for greed.
I favor regaining control from corporate dominance.

I do not want the same bunch of crooks that constantly lie to us dictating what kind of health care I get.

sounds like you have just had a family member with cancer and you are battling the HMOS... Cause that is it to the T.

They want people crawling to them to fix the problems.

No I wanna tax them and use the money for HEATHCARE and HIGHER education

They want dependent people, not independent people. You are fighting to make people dependent.

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
reply to post by mental modulator

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No, we are not dependent on each other. Your thinking is flawed. We are not a collective. We are individuals.

We are BOTH... I assume you are using a computer which is the result of hundreds of thousands of minds worth of time, energy and money. But that computer is yours
regardless of who invented it.

What do you think people did before complex society? It was little groups where everybody worked together. It works on the small scale, the only way it will work on the large scale is for the government to be governed by a set of laws enforced by the people.

They worked together towards a common goal, our society is an extension of this.
I agree, throw out the corporations that make the "peoples rules" via influence, throw out the corrupted politicians and lets start over. But if you forgo the first step the second step will not work.

There will always be homeless people, there will always be poor people. No system is going to solve that issue. The only way people are going be truly free is to realize that we are individuals and some just aren't going to make it. That does not include the physically and mentally impaired.

I didn't say any system could, what I think is that placing all of ones efforts towards
conserving power and amassing of money is exactly what we have been doing and it isn't working anymore.I see a different set of priorities. NONE OF US MAKE IT OUT ALIVE.

What is truly free in YOUR words??? What?

I am free right now, I could go get a glass of water or cap myself with the same amount of effort. I am just as pro people as you, but I think you see man made entities as people, once again it is INDIVIDUALS who assume the role of something larger.
But a company is not a person, can't kill em, feed em or talk to em.

Welcome to nature. It's cruel but it ultimately determines the rules.

I know, and I think you should consider the nature of modern big business and it ultimate effect on the peoples house...

Edit to add to tie this into the topic at hand.

This tax is only going to further hinder businesses being able to hire employees, which means more people out of jobs and more people on the government dole.

you may be right... But I hope you don't assume that people enjoy being in such a position. Remember this downturn was initiated by private business gone WILD,
it was not the government or the people who forced them to over leverage and cook the books. They lobbied to repeal the GSA, succeeded and preceded to fook things up full steam ahead. The government sat on their knuckles and here we are...
But don't forget who influenced who to loosen restrictions and what ideology believes in such practices.