where is everyone getting "skeptics" are just scared of aliens being real.
in that case christians are afraid the jewish, muslim, and infinite other gods.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WATCH OUT FOR THE EASTER BUNNY!!!!

i think skeptics are a UFOlogists best friend. it gives them a reason to dig deeper and hone the theory and ideas into something coherent and make a case that has basis.

the ones you SHOULD be bashing are those who jump into everything without thinking, the fools who believe every blurry picture, lunatic in the asylum claiming to be an alien, and every single video of a blinking light in the sky. those are your enemies. they steal your credibility. THEY are the reason why the everyday person walking down the street would laugh at you if you told them you believed in aliens, not skeptics.

Originally posted by Sunnygirl
If you don't care what skeptics think, why have you started a thread about them?

Because they care about the other people who have to deal with the skeptics...

This thread isn't for this person's personal needs, it is made for all of us......

Very good, OP, and I stand behind you.
I am also not one to believe ufo videos, in fact, I dont think there has been one yet, that I believe was real until today. I believe in ufos, I believe in many things, but most of the real sightings, are probably not captured on film. Or else, I just havent found them yet.

Im not saying the mexican siting is real, but I sure would like for it to be proven, if it's not. Thank you , OP.

Originally posted by Chaos Lord
They just don't want to believe. Their scared of it being true. Or it just may be the case that their little book doesn't allow it so it's not fathomable.

How many people have you actually met like that? On ATS I have yet to find one guy. Maybe there are a few ancient scientists who have that attitude.

Nobody here is scared of the idea. Skeptics want to know the truth just as much as anyone. The difference between skeptics and believers is that skeptics hold themselves to extremely strict standards. You can "want to believe" without being a totally gullible halfwit.

The idea of dividing people into skeptics and believers is totally unhelpful, but it is an unfortunate fact that people more or less do fall into one category or the other. The thing that annoys the hell out of me, is when people on either side resort to insulting each other's intelligence for not believing in the same thing.

That is what is going to turn ufology into religion, the division and fighting. Mankind's almost psychotic need to force their way of thinking onto others is the most dangerous aspect of our nature.

The most important thing to remember is that no matter what anyone says, it doesn't make it true. Nobody can force their opinion of reality onto you, no matter who you are. If you remember that, you can avoid pointless namecalling and arguments.

If posting on a thread gets to that stage where you're just feeling bad because you're having a pointless back and forth which is really going to go nowhere, just make peace and walk away. There are some who listen, and some who are not interested in anything aside from what they think, when you meet someone closed-minded (whether they are skeptic or believer) just walk away.

[edit on 5-7-2009 by Lazyninja]

I think it is important that all sceptics do not become catergorised or pilloried because of the mindset of its fringe and extreme supporters. Scepticism is healthy, and a required process. It is not a dogmatic stance, but an application of reason and logic into unravelling the puzzles and mysteries of our world, and indeed, of the daily dynamics of our world.

The problem is not in being a sceptic, but of the mindset behind it. Sceptics come in many different shades, and cannot all be classed in the same negative and disbelieving shade that the 'OP' is most likely refering to. A genuine sceptic will be ready to accept the compelling data uncovered in his inquiry, and change his viewpoint accordingly. What he will not do is resolutley refuse to accept the data. He will not dogmatically refuse to accept the evidence, thinking that he is missing some vital piece of inquiry that will demolish the data...that is obsession and psychosis...that is Randi-esque! that is truth prejudice! The refusal to let go of an outmoded thought-pattern, regardless of how the data is compelling one to do so, is in fact a form of insanity, and it hides itself behind reasonable facades, and gestures and wordings, in order to draw you in like a strawman.

We must not censor them, or deny them their point of view, but we must at the least engage them once or twice, but we need not create a rut of our own in order to match theirs. Just let it go, and move on.

Skeptics have short and selective memories.

Time and time again in the past,they would gang up and tear into any believer viciously.
It used to be that the believer would be out numbered by them.

But now the tide has turned and the skeptics have become the minority.And now they are getting to know and feel what its like on the receiving end.

You were eager in dishing it out,so now get used to getting the same back.

The kitchen door by the way,is right there behind you.

Originally posted by gallifreyan medic
Skeptics have short and selective memories.

Time and time again in the past,they would gang up and tear into any believer viciously.
It used to be that the believer would be out numbered by them.

The internet has a couple of flaws in my opinion. The first flaw is that the anonymity allows people to be totally rude to each other with just minor repercussions. Even on a strictly moderated site like this, people are smart enough to find ways to be totally rude without moderation.

The other flaw, in specific regard to ufology is also in it's anonymity. The polls suggest that most people do believe in ufos (that is to say that they are ET) but the reality around most people does not reflect that. Mostly, people really don't talk about this or think about this too much outside of the internet.

So you have a site like this, which allows people to talk about all kinds of subjects, and the anonymity allows people to put forwards greatly exaggerated versions of their own beliefs, because the fear of ridicule is not important. If you could imagine having an ATS convo with a real person, you would firstly have much higher respect for their skepticism, secondly you would moderate your own views to sound more skeptical.

So often I hear the analogy used against skeptics on this site "...and people used to believe the earth was flat..." Now if we concede that skeptics are outnumbered on this site, we can agree that the situation has reversed itself, and now "belief" is the accepted paradigm. I find that to be pretty ironic, since believers consider themselves to be thinking outside the box. When belief has become the box, and questioning this status quo is the true thinking outside of the box.

I've read and posted on the thread mentioned in the OP. It was overwhelmingly supported by believers claiming the 'unknown objects' are aliens, intelligent lifeforms, orbs or something giving birth. How can they make such a dramatic leap of faith? They have no prior experience to base their conclusions on. There aren't any legitimate guide books that can compare the objects in the video to outer space life forms. What remains is simply an assumption...The video remains unidentified and mysterious.

If ATS didn't have skeptics...we'd need to invent them. The site would be awash with fools sighing, "Ooooooh! Aliens! Woooooow!" at endless YT videos of aircraft landing lights and members claiming to be gray aliens. Damn 'true believers' love 'thinking out the box'...'joining the dots' etc. They criticize scientists as liars and mistrust the educated. They are as frighteningly limited in their thinking as I have ever met. They remind me of book burners in the Middle Ages of Europe...the same mentality that burned people that didn't fall in to line.

Some of the most respected members on ATS are skeptics...Armap, Internos, Phage, Green Eyed Leo, Ziggystar60, weedwhacker etc...anyone in my 'sharp friends' list...and guess what? It's a well kept secret....skeptics LOVE to find incidents that can't be explained by ordinary means! It's what keeps them returning to ATS in spite of idiots (yes...idiots) claiming every moving light is PROOF of aliens.

I personally do not care what skeptics think, and if people lived their lives with THEIR OWN TRUTHS, and didnt keep worrying about being politicially correct, or `impressing or prooving to other people`... then they would go far more further in life! So my friends, lets ignore the skeptics and move on with solving the huge puzzle of ufos and aliens... and again if a skeptic tries to discredit you, IGNORE... as their ignorance is THEIR problem! NOT yours!

School's out again? How exactly can you 'solve' anything without applying your brain to evidence. Pointing your finger in wide-eyed wonder at every airplane that flies over and shouting, "UFO! OMG!" isn't 'prooving' anything other than procreation doesn't require intelligence

I believe you must examine all obvious and less obvious possibilities that might explain a phenomenon in terms of physics and mathematics.

out of all this cat fighting, this is what i don't understand.
how are we supposed to apply earth physics and earth mathematics to something that's Out Of This World ?

if something is defying our understanding of physics right in front of you, there's just no physics book out there yet that will explain what you just saw.

not going to happen.

Originally posted by DASFEX

now "belief" is the accepted paradigm.

Yeah? Belief in what? what is it you believe? Their are UFO's ?

So.

Me? I don't have a hard belief either way about ufos. I have what I would like to believe, but that's a totally different thing.

Forgive skeptics and our frustrating answers, I think our problem is that we're just sick of seeing ufo videos all the time. We wanna see some aliens.

But yes, what I mean in this case by belief, is belief in ufos. Why?


[edit on 6-7-2009 by Lazyninja]

There's a very GOOD reason to have skeptics. Nearly ALL videos/evidence are/is pure bunk. That is just a fact.

Look at the value clicks have these days. It's a captive market of millions of wannabelievers and extremely hungry people who are genuinely trying to answer a very important question.

This recent video with the yellow disk ejecting smaller spheres IS ABSOLUTELY COMPELLING. Yes, we NEED skeptics to disprove it or to raise valid questions wannabelievers refuse to ask.

Don't take away from the wealth of time that skeptics put in. They are a commodity and we should thank God we have them so we are NOT derailed in our search.

I have seen UFOs with my own eyes and a couple times I really did NOT want to believe from shear terror. There was an experience associated with one that will never leave my lips or the keyboard as long as I live UNTIL they are proven real in a way that satisfies all skepticism. They were very real for me. Had I produced a video back then, I sure would have loved a rational explanation.
Oh how I wish I got a rational explanation. Instead I got two parents that saw the same thing as I and observed it longer! I was forced to believe.

MOST "evidence" is contrived bunk. If someone happens to be filming something and any glitter of light appears, they want to believe so bad they release it. Many are CGIs, too or simple reflection tricks.

Again, this current video is definitely unidentified and in desperate need of scrutiny before we spend too much time and spirit believing it is real.

While sometimes they can irritate you like a hemorrhoid, skeptics save us the most time and money by cutting short a foolish pursuit, drenched in the ignorance of "I want to believe".

I believe. I saw. More than once.
I only wish I had videos (early 80's or no camera on hand) to be actively debunked. I would have saved extremely valuable LIFE time if it could be explained in any rational sense.

Viva la skeptics!

[edit on 6-7-2009 by Atlantican]

The way I see it, for every ignorant skeptic there are probably 3-4 ignorant believers who carry on like a pork chop if someone disagrees with them.

A classic example is that weneedtoknow character, he comes in, starts a thread about how much he hates skeptics and wants everyone to ignore them because clearly they must suffer a mental illness.



Sound familiar?

So you asked the skeptics to come to this thred merely to say that you don't care what they say?? I don't understand. You very well do care what they say if you create a topic to discuss it. But I don't understand why you want others to disregard what skeptics say. Skeptics aren't your enemy. They're people looking at things in a more rational light than you. Without them you may be recruited by Ly-On and ET-MAN. That's your right to do, and you're obviously free to believe whatever you like. The thing is, you shouldn't dislike people for disagreeing with your views on what UFOs are. The fact is no one knows exactly what they are. Many of them are unidentified; meaning that there will of course be many many arguments as to what they are. You have to accept that everyone is different and that if you choose to limit yourself to one view that you will retard your ability to learn.

If your just getting into Ufology, or are just now interested in this subject and don't believe, then you have no heart. But if you have been around a while, and still believe with just as much fervor, then you have no brain.

Kind of like the saying that states "If your young, and not a liberal you have no heart. If your old, and not a conservative you have no brain."

Rings true here.

But seriously guys, why worry about us skeptics? Just go on with your lives enforcing the stereotype that this subject suffers from, then continue to complain that no one takes you seriously at the same time.

You want this subject to move forward and you blame skeptics for suppressing this? Please, your demonstrating your ignorance by believing in that. Lets have an experiment, give us skeptics 10-20 years to undo all the damage the believers have done while they sit down and shut up. Let's see what happens then, lol. The ONLY thing that will break this subject wide open in the main stream media is measured seriousness. Egads! Their evil, those bad MSN agents, how could I say that, lol? The thing is, they run a news cycle on what the people want to suck up. They don't run news cycles on things like Ufology for the obvious reason, even if there is an incident that bears severe mainstream scrutiny.

Folks, it is capitalism that will make or break this subject. And I'm not talking the capitalism of the current generation of "Ufology" experts selling books and getting on talk shows. It is the capitalism of the main stream media that will do it. And that requires a MAINSTREAM AUDIENCE. There is a reason the top box office movies are always sci-fi related. Because it is good ENTERTAINMENT, often fueled by the vocal majority of those interested in this subject. How sad for those of us that understand the big picture and actually care. The mains stream media is not going to pour resources into that just now, understand?

It is not going to happen, because of the giggle factor. Lets just say for a second that all the believers are 100% accurate with everything they say. O.K. Then lets look at this from a "public relations" perspective. Do you think you will get somewhere by blasting the average Joe with "soul collectors" on the moon? No, you will get there by suppressing the more wild stuff, and focusing on the very minimal, but investigatable things that the media will pick up on. After years of simple stuff, then start really getting into the more out there stuff. It's that simple.

But the damage done to "Ufology" by the believer side right now is a generational thing. It will take an entire generation to reverse. But that can't happen until we get the vocal majority that speak for this subject to sit down and shut up. So what if what your saying is true! We can't get there from here, and if you can't understand that then just keep screaming at your television every time the news person laughs at your favorite subject. Or keep going to the movies that use your wild ideas to fuel the capitalistic desire to spend money on entertainment.

There, take that. But I suspect this message will be lost on many, confusing it with an attack on their religion.



[edit on 6-7-2009 by IgnoreTheFacts]

Originally posted by IgnoreTheFacts
If your just getting into Ufology, or are just now interested in this subject and don't believe, then you have no heart. But if you have been around a while, and still believe with just as much fervor, then you have no brain.

Those who spend any time in this field come out the other side the worst sort of fanatic, cynical in their zeal or they come out disgusted and jaded with the whole mess. Both are a response to a loss of faith. There is little in the way of middle ground; what little middle ground there is not a "happy medium." This subject changes people and not for the better.