Ufo skeptics -- get in here.. right now!

It is a shame the aforementioned thread, which by any objective measure shows something extraordinary, has degenerated in to yet another skeptics vs. believers argument. And it is unfortunate that here we are in yet another anti-skepticism thread, defending not skepticism but rather just critical thinking of this subject. Threads such as this and what the aforementioned thread has become do nothing to further our understanding of the phenomenon. It is divisive and forces us in to black and white roles that are not necessarily in keeping with reality.

Many of us here, including I think some of the more skeptical members, fall within what Greg Bishop calls the "excluded middle," existing within the large, deep shadows cast by the fanatical cynics on both sides. Many of us (myself included) are experiencers who are just trying to get a handle on what we saw. But we are neither skeptics nor believers, rather critical thinkers with a passion for this subject. What separates us from the extremes is that we are the ones with a genuine interest in the truth. We are drowned out by the cynical fanatics, the extremists, who's interest is in personal validation not the truth. That is, they want their pet theory to be proven right, by proxy proving them right. Threads such as this are born of a desire not for the truth, but to be proven right and wag it in the face of everyone who ever disagreed.

This genuine interest in the truth enables the excluded middle to say perhaps the most important words in this field, that is the admission, "I don't know." Because the truth is our interest, we are secure in this admission, and it is this admission that compels us to look for answers. The cynics are unable to do this, so desperate for validation they jump to conclusions that are not necessarily supported by the evidence. Because they already think they have all the answers they are not looking for the truth, but to support whatever pet theory they may have, and thus may be blind to whatever the ultimate truth may be.

Well, "clearly" according to you. Thank you.

As for there being weird things seen in the sky once in a while? There are very few of those types of skeptics around who think those don't exist. Most folks agree that there are weird things. So why cry and stomp your feet about that?

As for what it is... well, nobody knows. It could be aliens from space. It could be something else. You have any special knowledge about what it might be? Or are you just basing your opinion on the notion that you know everything in the world it might be, and since it doesn't match up with everything you know, it must be... what? Extraterrestrial? A time probe? A thought form manifestation? You tell me.

Because what we have here, as we so often do, is something odd that nobody knows what is. Something odd. Could be a lot of things. Can't be narrowed down. But if you don't have any evidence that can beat "I don't know," then that's pretty much the end of the story.

A weird thing nobody knows what is. If that bothers you, then that's your problem, not the "evil skeptics."

[edit on 6-7-2009 by Nohup]

From reading the other thread, I have yet to see a single person who claims it proof of aliens articulate how they came to that conclusion. In 30 pages all we have seen is a proclamation that is is alien and fallacious thinking that if skeptics cannot debunk it that is somehow proves it is alien. We have not been told why it is alien.

To be certain, I have no idea what the video shows. But I am able to admit that. The fanatical cynics proclaiming it alien are incapable.

Exactly. Not knowing what something is is definitely NOT the same thing as positively proving that it's "alien," whatever that means. It's the equivalent of not knowing what something is. It means there's not enough data to positively identify something. Some people simply cannot get this logic through their heads.



[edit on 6-7-2009 by Nohup]

Excellent point. You've hit the nail on the head.

reply to post by Visiting ESB

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I have issue with this. I am a skeptic, but I am not afraid nor do I fear the existance of aliens. I just do not think they exist. Wow... why would we fear them? Makes no sense to this skeptic..

There is one thing I have already noticed here at ATS:

The believers tend to form their own little "groups" or "gangs" in threads, and in their internal chit chat they spend most of their time trying to ridicule/provoce skeptics or make them look bad instead of adressing the topic of the thread. The believers often show a very strong flock and "us versus them" mentality, something I always associate with the behaviour of sheep.

It kind of ironic since the believers so often accuse skeptics of being "sheeple".

reply to post by Sunnygirl

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Yep, I have seen this as well. Which is why I only go the UFO threads where quality members contribute and I stay away from the threads that are made by way below quality members.

Though I would be deemed one of the hated skeptics, I do not fear "aliens". Not only do I think we live in a galaxy populated with intelligent life, I hope we are being visited. I hope to see proof of it in my lifetime.

So, could you please tell me how this means I am afraid of this "theory becoming reality"?

reply to post by DoomsdayRex

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Thank you! We do not fear aliens. And why would we fear them if they existed? Excellent question.

Heaven forbid we "believers" seek company of like-minded persons. It doesn't seem to matter to people like you that you have the entire news media, science, religion, etc supporting in various ways your skepticism, which in most cases I've seen (those who write here or elsewhere) amounts to disbelief even in the face of ever-mounting evidence. Yet, many of you believe in evolution or god, neither of which have a whole lot of evidence as to their existence.

Absolutely false. We want to know whats going on more than anyone, certainly more than you guys. Because you guys obviously "know" whats going on already. That is a luxury we cannot afford ourselves. To say we fear it is to misunderstand us completely.

reply to post by Sunnygirl

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So you get hit on the head with a hammer.
But people are saying 'no,it was a stick of celery'

You say,'no,it was a hammer'
And it gos on and on like that.

What would you feel?
Insulted and angry at being called a liar?

What would you do?
Join up with those who have had the same?
Who know the difference between a stick of celery and a hammer when they see one.

[edit on 6/7/09 by gallifreyan medic]

I have a pic I will post in the next few days- just need to get it off a friend when she comes over-

Apparently people out at Nimbin (Australia) see them all the time and the picture I saw is pretty amazing- its a light, red blue purple...and hovered over the ridge for at least two hours- I am about an hour away from Nimbin

Will post it as soon as I can

Conditioning. Most are conditioned to think we are "it" and nothing else is possible. That has roots in religion. I do believe there is a subconscious fear of what we don't understand, even among some who believe they exist. The reason I think that is the case is the intensity and frequent dishonesty with which debunkers ply their trade -- no matter how strong the evidence, they will say it doesn't exist.

I guess I'll put my two cents in on the subject: Those who are prone to believe, are going to believe. Skeptics are always going to be willing to play Devils' Advocate. As for myself, I try to remain in the gray area, which most thinking individuals will do. There are clearly good arguments for both sides of the case. Common sense should be your guide for belief or non-belief. Look at all the information and make a decision based on facts, and hard evidence. And as for those cases that no one is really sure about, think like an Agnostic and just follow the motto"I don't know, and you don't either".

reply to post by plejarenlyran

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Skeptics in the scientific community resist the evidence for extraterrestrial visitation because of the implications it raises and because of the questions it begs. But should the integrity of the determination rely on the implications of a positive classification? Or should the classification of true or false be assessed in isolation of the implications? Which is worse -- a false positive, meaning ruling in favor of the UFO as a unique phenomenon when in fact it does not exist, or a false negative, meaning ruling against it and missing out on its true existence?

The answer, of course, lies in the incentive structure of the analyst.
An equally intelligent non-scientist has no incentive nor predisposition to favor one type of error over the other, but scientists do.
For scientists, it would open a whole new confounding problem domain, and it would make them look incompetent in the public's eyes for missing out on this fact for 50 years. That's why the incentive structure of contemporary scientists is such that they will NOT accept alien visitation unless they must, which would be when they get IRREFUTABLE physical proof!
Their incentive structure prohibits them from making any such inference unless it is unavoidable, and they will strain the boundaries of logic and reason to no end to dismiss all evidence other than physical proof, no matter how powerful it may be. This scientific predisposition toward disbelief, rooted not in science and logic but rather in dogma and paradigm, brings us to the logical trickery of the scientific UFO debunker.

For instance, if SETI receives an anomalous repeating signal with intelligent content such as a mathemtical constant, and rules out all known causes of terrestrial and deep-space interference, do they need a chunk of the alien radio dish or a dead alien to attribute it to alien origin? It would be just as easy to apply UFO-skeptic logic and insist that the signal is nothing more than anomalous until we obtain physical proof of aliens; after all, why ascribe a radio signal to alien origin before we have physical proof of the existence of aliens? After all, we cannot rule out malfunction, fraud, or human error with 100% certainty, so the simplest explanation is an undetected flaw, not an alien message. Right?

There are many people like myself that will criticise a vid for its poor quaility and there being no way anybody could tell its an itelligent life form operating an advanced craft. If you wanna cry over that, go ahead. At least 95% of all the vids I've seen are BS. I believe intelligent life exists and the government is hiding many truths concerning aliens. I also believe most people post retarded vids full of rhetoric BS claiming they are undeniably alien spacecraft when all you see is a light that fluctautes in brightness along with no definition. Call it a UFO but dont say there's intelligence involved when you cant make it out. My biggest beef isnt so much the vids people post.. its the claims they make out of them.

[edit on 6-7-2009 by disfugured]

reply to post by plejarenlyran

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My advice to you is simple.

Stop caring soo much what

others think and believe!!!


You will be much much happier in the long run.

[edit on 7-7-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Simple answer, Capitalism, just imagine how much advertising money their program got showing that. On top of their crosses in the sky and God's eyes in the sky videos. And think about the Spanish-Catholicism connection... Mexico and S America have large Catholic populations showing things that pique religious curiosity will definitely get you ratings in religious populations.
Not that Communists wont lie... most if not all Russian sightings are military tests.