At first the thought of the Illuminati might seem far fetched, but then you see Bohemian Grove and the worlds wealthy and men of power doing a mock sacrifice wearing hoods trying to tap into a power that shouldn't be tapped into, and that's proof enough for me there's a real Illuminati, and i'm sure some of the groves members are masons.

[edit on 25-6-2009 by King Seesar]

My bad I COMPLETELY misread your post. I do apologize

Originally posted by King Seesar
, and i'm sure some of the groves members are masons.

[edit on 25-6-2009 by King Seesar]

Well, I am sure that the majority of them are also golfers. Perhaps we should look at some of those 'high-level' golfers in the PGA. That's a shady bunch if I ever saw it. Lots of money, they don't have real jobs. They have plenty of time to control the world.

Viking - You make an excellent point. It actually gives credence to the idea that the Masons do not, in fact, have an ulterior agenda.

With that being said, where is the locus of control? Who is, in fact, at the top of the heap calling the shots? Someone is, that's for sure. And I don't think it's any more than a handful of families - maybe a dozen people at the very, very top.

I would place the Pope at the very top, or at least awfully close to it. The power that the papacy has had and continues to have is pretty close to the kind of world influence and dominance you would expect at the top of the pyramid.

Where are these images of a poor scared black kid attached a gurney? (I like how you pointed out its a black kid expecting people to feel more sad or something lol) The only image I've seen is some old image from the 1800s or something and its obviously just a doll...

And all the information people have about bohemian grove basically comes from alex jones, I wouldn't quite call him a credible source for anything. That man twists so much stuff around to fit his agenda, I'm surprised it isnt obvious to everyone, because its BLATANTLY obvious to me.

His groupies as I call them are so freaking brainwashed, I find it hilarious that they go around calling other people sheeple and brainwashed, when in my opionon they are the real brainwashed ones. Following EVERY SINGLE THING Jones says without questioning a word of it. That is the DEFINITION of a brainwashed follower.


[edit on 4-7-2009 by jeasahtheseer]

For hundreds of years the Freemasons and other groups like the Rosicrucians, the Knights Templar and the Knights of Malta have come under government scrutiny and public persecution. In an attempt at self-preservation, they are trying to improve their public image. This includes attempting to get Freemasonry de-listed as a secret society. They prefer to call themselves "a society with secrets."

A reason why their symbols are so prominently-placed is to remind members that the "all-seeing eye" is ever-present.

This includes attempting to get Freemasonry de-listed as a secret society. They prefer to call themselves "a society with secrets."

Well, with the advent of bookstores, the Internet, Amazon.com and the like, the rituals - including signs and tokens - of modern day Freemasonry are easily accessible to anyone that cares to investigate.

To erroneously call Freemasonry a "society with secrets" is, therefore, patently ridiculous.

Freemasonry has never been a "society" in the traditional sense, which would imply that they are engaged in defense, supplying their own food, commerce, government affairs, etc.

Instead, Freemasonry is more appropriately called a fraternity - No different from the countless fraternities that pervade college campuses, or fraternal organizations such as the Elks, Moose, Knights of Columbus, etc. By fraternity, I refer simply to a men's "fraternal" organization organized around men with common values and principles.

It is not a "society" in the traditional sense of the word, unless you wish to create a new definition of "society".

For hundreds of years the Freemasons and other groups like the Rosicrucians, the Knights Templar and the Knights of Malta have come under government scrutiny and public persecution.

Not really. The only organization that really has persecuted the Knights Templar/Freemasons has been the Catholic Church.

Throughout history, many government leaders have actually been quite supportive of Freemasonry - Two perfect examples are the British monarchy and the Founding Fathers in the United States - both of which were very supportive of Freemasonry.

Occasionally, you do have anti-masonic factions - as we did even here in the U.S. with the Anti-Masonic Party at one time - but these have been relatively short-lived and few and far between.

Today, the Masons are not persecuted by either the American nor the British governments, and this has been the case now for many, many decades.

Even the modern day Catholic Church does not persecute the Freemasons, only adhering to a standard that Catholics are not permitted to join the fraternity.

A reason why their symbols are so prominently-placed is to remind members that the "all-seeing eye" is ever-present.

Like many organizations of all types - both fraternal, commercial, and religious - symbolism is fairly common. The symbols utilized in Freemasonry are not a "reminder that the All Seeing Eye is ever present" in the sense that you state - as if it were a negative symbol with hostile connotations.

Instead, the All Seeing Eye is a simple reminder of God and Divine Providence. If it serves as a "reminder" in any sense to Freemasons, it reminds the average Freemason that God is all-knowing, all powerful, and that we should, therefore, regulate our conduct accordingly and live according to His laws.

Just as we Americans have an American Flag - a symbol of our freedom from British rule and a reminder of our democratic principles - and just as religions have their symbols (Christianity with the cross, for instance), Masonic symbols are typically found on Masonic regalia utilized in ritual work, Masonic Lodges, and occasionally in the form of jewelry (rings, etc.).

Any symbolism beyond that - such as the incredulous suggestions that common advertising symbols for Fortune 500 companies are Masonic in nature - is pure speculation.

The All Seeing Eye is also quite commonly found in Egyptian hieroglyphics, Buddhism, as well as in various artifacts in the Vatican. It was also commonly utilized in Medieval iconography.



[edit on 14-7-2009 by CookieMonster09]

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

This includes attempting to get Freemasonry de-listed as a secret society. They prefer to call themselves "a society with secrets."

Well, with the advent of bookstores, the Internet, Amazon.com and the like, the rituals - including signs and tokens - of modern day Freemasonry are easily accessible to anyone that cares to investigate.

To erroneously call Freemasonry a "society with secrets" is, therefore, patently ridiculous.

Those books aren't good for anything than to lull ignorant outsiders into a false sense of security.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Freemasonry has never been a "society" in the traditional sense, which would imply that they are engaged in defense, supplying their own food, commerce, government affairs, etc.

Instead, Freemasonry is more appropriately called a fraternity - No different from the countless fraternities that pervade college campuses, or fraternal organizations such as the Elks, Moose, Knights of Columbus, etc. By fraternity, I refer simply to a men's "fraternal" organization organized around men with common values and principles.

It is not a "society" in the traditional sense of the word, unless you wish to create a new definition of "society".

A society in the sense of a widely-encompassing group of people.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

For hundreds of years the Freemasons and other groups like the Rosicrucians, the Knights Templar and the Knights of Malta have come under government scrutiny and public persecution.

Not really. The only organization that really has persecuted the Knights Templar/Freemasons has been the Catholic Church.

There was an Anti-Masonic political party in the US and other countries. I think there are still Anti-Masonic parties even today. John Quincy Adams banned Masonry in the US during his administration.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Throughout history, many government leaders have actually been quite supportive of Freemasonry - Two perfect examples are the British monarchy and the Founding Fathers in the United States - both of which were very supportive of Freemasonry.

Occasionally, you do have anti-masonic factions - as we did even here in the U.S. with the Anti-Masonic Party at one time - but these have been relatively short-lived and few and far between.

Today, the Masons are not persecuted by either the American nor the British governments, and this has been the case now for many, many decades.

Freemasonry is persecuted by other countries, particular among anti-Zionists and strict authoritarian governments. It was outlawed by Francisco Franco of Spain, Mussolini, Hitler, Mao Zhe-dong, Czar Nicholas I, Catherine the Great, Bela Kun of Hungary, Saddam Hussein, Pervez Musharaf and others - mostly people who were demonized or minimalized by the American media.

In Britain, civil servants must indicate whether they are Freemasons.

George Washington and Harry S. Truman became Masons and then explained why they didn't like it after retiring from office. Every president who was assassinated was not a Mason. Every president who faced impeachment was not a Mason. The Bushes were not Masons. The supposedly greatest US presidents such as FDR, Ronald Reagan and Thomas Jefferson were Masons. One of the most vilified periods in American history -- the "McCarthy Era" -- was not meant for communists, but for members of secret societies, such as Freemasons, who systematically supported communism in the Far East.

With events surrounding the Russian Revolution, the two World Wars, Vietnam, 9/11, the USA PATRIOT Act, the sudden financial meltdown, socialism sweeping through Latin America and authors like Jim Marrs, people are asking questions and discovering that Freemasons make claims that are not supported by their actual track record. Sociologists are now claiming that Generation Y was defined by 9/11, which is such complete bull$### that it's laughable

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Even the modern day Catholic Church does not persecute the Freemasons, only adhering to a standard that Catholics are not permitted to join the fraternity.

Masons that are discovered among Catholic clergy are supposed to be exonerated or excommunicated, but often are not because of a conspiracy.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

A reason why their symbols are so prominently-placed is to remind members that the "all-seeing eye" is ever-present.

Like many organizations of all types - both fraternal, commercial, and religious - symbolism is fairly common. The symbols utilized in Freemasonry are not a "reminder that the All Seeing Eye is ever present" in the sense that you state - as if it were a negative symbol with hostile connotations.

Instead, the All Seeing Eye is a simple reminder of God and Divine Providence. If it serves as a "reminder" in any sense to Freemasons, it reminds the average Freemason that God is all-knowing, all powerful, and that we should, therefore, regulate our conduct accordingly and live according to His laws.

I'm not sure what the difference is

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Just as we Americans have an American Flag - a symbol of our freedom from British rule and a reminder of our democratic principles - and just as religions have their symbols (Christianity with the cross, for instance), Masonic symbols are typically found on Masonic regalia utilized in ritual work, Masonic Lodges, and occasionally in the form of jewelry (rings, etc.).

Any symbolism beyond that - such as the incredulous suggestions that common advertising symbols for Fortune 500 companies are Masonic in nature - is pure speculation.

The All Seeing Eye is also quite commonly found in Egyptian hieroglyphics, Buddhism, as well as in various artifacts in the Vatican. It was also commonly utilized in Medieval iconography.

There are cases of Fortune 500 companies admitting that their symbols are inspired by the occult. There are a few logos that look like the square-and-compass. In addition, there are Freemason symbols that are not recognizable as such except by people in the know, such as the bee, certain Hebrew letters, the double-cross, and the cross in the crown.

The Eye of Horus is a symbol of commerce or of singularity. It's also a reminder to be "strong"

It was used in Medieval iconography to denote the that the presence of God had been felt.

Those books aren't good for anything than to lull ignorant outsiders into a false sense of security.

Masonic Ritual books - such as Duncan's Masonic Ritual - are simply factual representation of the standard Masonic Ritual as utilized in the Blue Lodge. Giving the content of the ritual via public means is simply conveying information, and has nothing to do with "lulling ignorant outsiders into a false sense of security".

These books are simply conveying the content of the ritual - no more, no less.

This is hardly an attempt by Masons to persuade or cajole. If it were, it would be an awfully poor attempt to do so. I can think of several other books that are more indicative of promoting Masonry, and books explaining and extricating the ritual are not in the same category.

A society in the sense of a widely-encompassing group of people.

So....Basically Masonry is a "society" based on your own personal, unique definition of "society", and not how the rest of the world would define a society.

Okay, just so long as we know that we are using your own personal, made up definitions for defining what a "society" is. I am glad we cleared that up. We'll stick with your own personal interpretations of words from here on out - To heck with the Oxford Dictionary and such.

There was an Anti-Masonic political party in the US and other countries. I think there are still Anti-Masonic parties even today. John Quincy Adams banned Masonry in the US during his administration.

You are correct - But if you read my original post, I acknowledge that there was, at one time in U.S. history, an Anti-Masonic Party. It no longer exists as a political party, was short-lived, and existed well over a couple hundred years ago. Any party today claiming to be such today would be quite obscure and poorly organized. Kind of like calling yourself a member of the Whig Party today.

Freemasonry is persecuted by other countries, particular among anti-Zionists and strict authoritarian governments.

Funny how the only politicos opposed to Freemasonry are dictators and "authoritarian governments". Isn't that ironic?

With events surrounding the Russian Revolution, the two World Wars, Vietnam, 9/11, the USA PATRIOT Act, the sudden financial meltdown, socialism sweeping through Latin America and authors like Jim Marrs, people are asking questions and discovering that Freemasons make claims that are not supported by their actual track record.

First, Jim Marrs is a conspiracy theorist, so I wouldn't give him much credence. Secondly, you need to separate Freemasonry from politics. The two are not the same. That's like claiming that Kennedy was working for the Pope because he was Roman Catholic. The two are not interconnected. You can't even discuss politics or religion in the Lodge room, let alone plan a war.

You could say, however, that there are individuals - politicians, military leaders, etc. - involved in planning wars and revolutions who happened to also be Masons. They also happened to be Catholic, Protestant, or any host of other religions or sects. Big deal.

There are also Masons that have done a great deal of good for the country. Henry Ford and Thomas Edison were both Freemasons, for instance.

So, why would you only choose to associate certain leaders and politicos that had a negative impact on history that happened to be Freemasons? Because it suits your agenda. Hitler wasn't a Mason, neither were the main dictators during the last century. You might want to point that out, too.

Masons that are discovered among Catholic clergy are supposed to be exonerated or excommunicated, but often are not because of a conspiracy.

Any Catholic - clergy or not - faces excommunication (NOT "exoneration" as you claim) if they are found to be a Freemason. If they renounce their membership, they can return to the Church after confession.

I'm not sure what the difference is

The difference is that the All-Seeing Eye as a symbol is not a nefarious, insidious symbol. It is a symbol representing God.

There are cases of Fortune 500 companies admitting that their symbols are inspired by the occult.

Well, at least there isn't a secret cabal of advertising executives at Fortune 500 companies posing as Masons as they devise these occult symbols for their companies' logos. Thank goodness for that.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen


George Washington and Harry S. Truman became Masons and then explained why they didn't like it after retiring from office.

This is untrue on both counts. Washington was a loyal Mason for his entire life, and was buried with Masonic honors. One of his last letters was written to the Grand Lodge of Massachussetts.

Truman was the most Masonically active of all US Presidents who were Masons. Before becoming President, he had already served as Grand Master of Masons in Missouri, which made him the highest ranking Masonic official in that state. Truman was also a 33° of the Scottish Rite, a Knight of the York Grand Cross of Honor in the York Rite, a Shriner, and a Tall Cedar of Lebanon. He described his election to the office of Grand Master as the highest honor ever received in his life.

The supposedly greatest US presidents such as FDR, Ronald Reagan and Thomas Jefferson were Masons.

FDR was a Mason. Reagan and Jefferson were not.

One of the most vilified periods in American history -- the "McCarthy Era" -- was not meant for communists, but for members of secret societies, such as Freemasons, who systematically supported communism in the Far East.

Nonsense. Freemasons were persecuted by Communists in the far east, and Freemasonry had nothing to do with either the Red Scare or the McCarthy witchhunts. To state otherwise is simply an attempt to rewrite history.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Those books aren't good for anything than to lull ignorant outsiders into a false sense of security.

Masonic Ritual books - such as Duncan's Masonic Ritual - are simply factual representation of the standard Masonic Ritual as utilized in the Blue Lodge. Giving the content of the ritual via public means is simply conveying information, and has nothing to do with "lulling ignorant outsiders into a false sense of security".

Books such as Duncan's Ritual, William Morgan's book and the Freemasonry Watch website reflect outdated wording among other things. They do not reflect any actual Masonic ritual, except maybe by wanna-be copy-cats.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
These books are simply conveying the content of the ritual - no more, no less.

This is hardly an attempt by Masons to persuade or cajole. If it were, it would be an awfully poor attempt to do so. I can think of several other books that are more indicative of promoting Masonry, and books explaining and extricating the ritual are not in the same category.

It's an attempt by Masons to demonstrate that they are not being secret, which is nonsense. Masons cannot expose their own rituals to outsiders, because that would defeat the purpose of operating a Masonic lodge in the first place.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

A society in the sense of a widely-encompassing group of people.

So....Basically Masonry is a "society" based on your own personal, unique definition of "society", and not how the rest of the world would define a society.

Okay, just so long as we know that we are using your own personal, made up definitions for defining what a "society" is. I am glad we cleared that up. We'll stick with your own personal interpretations of words from here on out - To heck with the Oxford Dictionary and such.

Show me where the Oxford Dictionary defines "society" as a social system with an internal economy, a formal government and a military.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

There was an Anti-Masonic political party in the US and other countries. I think there are still Anti-Masonic parties even today. John Quincy Adams banned Masonry in the US during his administration.

You are correct - But if you read my original post, I acknowledge that there was, at one time in U.S. history, an Anti-Masonic Party. It no longer exists as a political party, was short-lived, and existed well over a couple hundred years ago. Any party today claiming to be such today would be quite obscure and poorly organized. Kind of like calling yourself a member of the Whig Party today.

They would be obscure and poorly organized because they opposed Freemasonry?

The Boston Tea Party still exists, so I wouldn't be surprised

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Freemasonry is persecuted by other countries, particular among anti-Zionists and strict authoritarian governments.

Funny how the only politicos opposed to Freemasonry are dictators and "authoritarian governments". Isn't that ironic?

It's also ironic how countries that allow Freemasonry are held by the balls by the Bank of England. It's also ironic that all of their economies have crashed during this current economic collapse.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

With events surrounding the Russian Revolution, the two World Wars, Vietnam, 9/11, the USA PATRIOT Act, the sudden financial meltdown, socialism sweeping through Latin America and authors like Jim Marrs, people are asking questions and discovering that Freemasons make claims that are not supported by their actual track record.

First, Jim Marrs is a conspiracy theorist, so I wouldn't give him much credence.

Ad-hominem attack

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Secondly, you need to separate Freemasonry from politics. The two are not the same. That's like claiming that Kennedy was working for the Pope because he was Roman Catholic. The two are not interconnected. You can't even discuss politics or religion in the Lodge room, let alone plan a war.

It very well could be that JFK was working for the Pope. Who knows?

If religion were not discussed in the lodge, then how do so many Freemasons get to express their dislike for the Catholic Church?

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
You could say, however, that there are individuals - politicians, military leaders, etc. - involved in planning wars and revolutions who happened to also be Masons. They also happened to be Catholic, Protestant, or any host of other religions or sects. Big deal.

Yeah, but prominent Freemasons have espoused ideals such as revolution and anti-emperialism. The entire fraternal order wished not to be associated with such ideals then they would have distanced themselves from such people.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
There are also Masons that have done a great deal of good for the country. Henry Ford and Thomas Edison were both Freemasons, for instance.

Thomas Edison stole his idea from someone else, as did Alexander Graham Bell and Thomas Watson.

Henry Ford has done lots of bad for "the country." I'm sure you've heard of the Ford Foundation.

Too bad Nikola Tesla wasn't a Freemason. He never would have created those evil robot armies.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
So, why would you only choose to associate certain leaders and politicos that had a negative impact on history that happened to be Freemasons? Because it suits your agenda. Hitler wasn't a Mason, neither were the main dictators during the last century. You might want to point that out, too.

Saddam Hussein was a Freemason. They were all demonized by the Zionist establishment for not supporting Freemasonry and the Zionist movement. Holocaust denial must be one of the worst de-facto offenses that a person can commit in the "free" world. So much for democracy and freedom of speech.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Masons that are discovered among Catholic clergy are supposed to be exonerated or excommunicated, but often are not because of a conspiracy.

Any Catholic - clergy or not - faces excommunication (NOT "exoneration" as you claim) if they are found to be a Freemason. If they renounce their membership, they can return to the Church after confession.

So it's basically an unpaid vacation.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

I'm not sure what the difference is

The difference is that the All-Seeing Eye as a symbol is not a nefarious, insidious symbol. It is a symbol representing God.

When did I ever say nefarious or insidious? I said that it reminds people of God's presence and to uphold the teachings that are symbolized by the eye. If you're inferring that I meant Big Brother, then maybe you don't agree with the Illuminati as much as you are letting on

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

There are cases of Fortune 500 companies admitting that their symbols are inspired by the occult.

Well, at least there isn't a secret cabal of advertising executives at Fortune 500 companies posing as Masons as they devise these occult symbols for their companies' logos. Thank goodness for that.

Executives don't make logos ...


[edit on 22-7-2009 by vcwxvwligen]

Here you go again...

Saddam Hussein wasn't a Freemason, dude. He actually outlawed Freemasonry. Doesn't make sense, does it?

*penny drops*

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen


George Washington and Harry S. Truman became Masons and then explained why they didn't like it after retiring from office.

This is untrue on both counts. Washington was a loyal Mason for his entire life, and was buried with Masonic honors. One of his last letters was written to the Grand Lodge of Massachussetts.

A "loyal Mason" would have attended lodge at least once in 60 years. In another letter he wrote slanderous things about the Freemasons from New York.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Truman was the most Masonically active of all US Presidents who were Masons. Before becoming President, he had already served as Grand Master of Masons in Missouri, which made him the highest ranking Masonic official in that state. Truman was also a 33° of the Scottish Rite, a Knight of the York Grand Cross of Honor in the York Rite, a Shriner, and a Tall Cedar of Lebanon. He described his election to the office of Grand Master as the highest honor ever received in his life.

He also described his concerns that secret societies were basically running the country into the ground.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

The supposedly greatest US presidents such as FDR, Ronald Reagan and Thomas Jefferson were Masons.

FDR was a Mason. Reagan and Jefferson were not.

Reagan was an honorary Shriner, and -- like non-Mason presidents such as Abraham Lincoln -- supported Masonry and engaged in Masonic activities despite not holding the degrees per se.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

One of the most vilified periods in American history -- the "McCarthy Era" -- was not meant for communists, but for members of secret societies, such as Freemasons, who systematically supported communism in the Far East.

Nonsense. Freemasons were persecuted by Communists in the far east, and Freemasonry had nothing to do with either the Red Scare or the McCarthy witchhunts. To state otherwise is simply an attempt to rewrite history.

A great deal of the "orient" was controlled by the Soviet Union, which was a Masonic state through and through.
The secret societies and the UN supported both sides of the revolutions in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. The Khmer Rouge were backed by the US military and the UN-supported Thai and North Vietnamese troops.

The communists were persecuted by Hitler, Mussolini, Mao Zhe-dong and Kim Il-Sung because they wanted to unite their countries under national socialism. Freemasonry wouldn't work in that configuration.

Josip Tito defected from the Soviet Union, and became a footnote in the US media. You don't hear as much about him as about the wars in Serbia.

J. Edgar Hoover targeted the Black Panthers and the Young Lords because they were communists, and not necessarily because of racism. Malcolm X and MLK supported communism as well, but MLK got a free pass in exchange for supporting the Zionists. Every politician who has ever criticized MLK has been demonized in the US media.


[edit on 22-7-2009 by vcwxvwligen]

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Books such as Duncan's Ritual, William Morgan's book and the Freemasonry Watch website reflect outdated wording among other things. They do not reflect any actual Masonic ritual, except maybe by wanna-be copy-cats.

When was the last time you were in a lodge to inspect the ritual work?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Books such as Duncan's Ritual, William Morgan's book and the Freemasonry Watch website reflect outdated wording among other things. They do not reflect any actual Masonic ritual, except maybe by wanna-be copy-cats.

When was the last time you were in a lodge to inspect the ritual work?

So they do accurately reflect the rituals in your lodge? Can everybody in ATS hold you to that?