Can matter actually exist? Nope!

reply to post by Death_Kron


True understanding of the answer at hand must be by oneself, for oneself is the one questioning for an answer of matter and existance.

Therefor by questioning.....you give birth to the reason/existance of an answer, and vise versa it's a singular action.



[edit on 24-6-2009 by Psychonaughty]

An excelent first Op S+F

I think most have to agree that to exist in this reality, as measured by science in the physical aspect, it appears as pointed out an Observer is needed.

This is the premise the OP is basing his further exploration on, though some have not noticed this and quoted a standard " it's Quantum Physics fool" type reply to his erucidite OP.

Mirrors are very interesting in Quantum and philosophical questions to lol, back on OP now:

So the exploring how we are able to actually perceive it, be it energy, old school ball bearings type atoms of solid stuff, whatever is an improtant and deep exploration.

I would like to ask a further question, beyond that, let's not ask how that observer is able to observe this energy/mass and in what way, means or process,

But taking the original premise of the OP an observer is needed for the subject/object to be observed in the first place, never mind how it observes these things, but... but....

Who/What observes you as an observer to be able to experience these things anyhow?

As the premise would state and prove that the observer creating the observed would infact have to be observed in the first place, to exist itself and be able to observe!

Ad Infinitum? who observes the observer that creates you observing the things you observe so that they all can exist truley?

So pondering this one comes to the least brain numbing thought and explanation in relative terms.... another question is needed maybe to understand it in un enlightened and material/physical 3 dimensional terms....

Do the actual act of observation as well as creating the wave form collapse of the observed object/event/system, allow the observed to become aware at a deep level it is being observed and therefore look back......?

Maybe just maybe the illusion of time is the answer? the observer creates the observed which being perceived is also self aware of this and looks back as such and creates the observer?

This may sound far out, but unless you go down this thought train, having discussed as in the begging of this post, the observed having to be observed by an another observer seperate to the object being observed, to exist in the first place, you are left in a very difficult place philisophically and religiously from a monotheistic etc point of veiw, as Any God would need a god of their own, and that god's god another god to allow it to be a god and observe our own, and create them.....
to have seen them,

Alternativally a infinite number of stacked observers would be needed, for each event in the universe, but then in both of these explanations there would be no end to the heirarchy of observed and observers.

This makes no sense and is very unlogical.....

So the only explanation we can understand in our limited way of observing, discussing and understanding this universe and reality at our unenlightened levels, is to postulate the One Mind theory, we are all parts of it, it has no beginning and no end, and is just that a consciousness of which we are individual parts or systems.... and our ego's create that seperation.

As a cell is part of your body, is governed and controlled and responds, interacts with and lives within that system, the body is nothing without the cells, the cells nothing without the body, neither is real or here without the other, it is interdependant. However the cell has no idea it is part of the body, and is only really "self aware" as such seeing itself as a separate unit, which in a sense it is, but not also.

So is our consciousness imho having pondered the above for many years.

Kind Regards,

Elf

[edit on 24-6-2009 by MischeviousElf]

reply to post by MischeviousElf




That post will keep my mind busy for some time...

reply to post by Xtinguish


Matter/energy does exist independent from our perception.

Just because other animals, and people can perceive things differently it doesn't mean those things don't exist. it just means those people/animals perceive things differently.

There are many forms of energy, and even probably matter that we cannot perceive because their rate of vibration is either higher, or lower than the rate of vibration of matter/energy we can perceive. But this does not mean that this matter/energy does not exist. It just means "we can't" perceive them".




[edit on 24-6-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

lesson 101

Your body is physical made up from atoms..

your mind is made from the energy that makes atoms work...

Atoms are not solid objects..

Energy is not solid its a river...

Your brain works the same as the universe..

That is the reason why everything you understand feels and looks the same

You are not GOD.. you are not the thing that made US..

Your mind is complex and simple like a square...

you are logical beings and need to understand that your body is logical and your mind is not...


being on this rock is just the same as being a tree

you will never know why you are here,, EVER

get use to it... for when you DIE you still wont know why...

for you are not the one who created it all...

and just so you are aware

you are in fact as old as the universe

without one you do not get the other

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


matter is real and so is energy..

for they are both one of the same thing

like your brain vs your body

...................YOUR MIND HAS NO SHAPE.. YOUR BODY DOES

MATTER / ENERGY

er hello?

just wanted to state the obvious

how can you have a mind that is infinante but yet have a body that is finite?

your mind has no shape!!!

but look at your body

do you not find that interesting?

so how can ones mind fit inside a body

logic and chaos in the same place?

because the question you ask is like giving birtth

your mind is a reproduction system for the very thing you are inside

A QUESTION...

not hard really ...

[edit on 24-6-2009 by symmetricAvenger]

reply to post by symmetricAvenger



I really have no idea what you are talking about.

First you make it sound like everyone else but you are "logical beings", and you claim that noone can ever know who they are, or why we are here. How can you say that? are you what you call God to know this?

Can you read people's minds? I am certain you can't.

There are many people around the world who perceive things most other people do not perceive.

There are people who are aware since childhood of their past lives, and many such people can see future events, and can perceive things others can't because they are at least partially aware.

Matter/energy can never be created, it just transforms from one form of matter/energy to another.

There was no beginning, and there will be no end, there are only cycles and the experience of the different manifestations that matter/energy can become.

There is not one person in this planet that has all the awnsers.

IMO we are here to experience life in this planet. Some people are supposed to experience only the material part of the world, while others are supposed to awaken to the reality that there is more than just material things in this planet, and the Universe/multiverses.


[edit on 24-6-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by symmetricAvenger
...........
just wanted to state the obvious

how can you have a mind that is infinante but yet have a body that is finite?

your mind has no shape!!!

but look at your body

do you not find that interesting?

That is not obvious. There is a duality in everything that exists. Electrons can exist as both a wave (energy), and a particle (matter).

IMO experience, and by what I have learnt matter is just the manifestation of many forms of energy. You can't separate matter and energy, both must exist in order to manifest themselves.

There is a particle/wave (matter/energy) duality in everything that exists.

When your body dies the matter that composes your body does not dissapear, it just transforms into other forms of matter, and later on transforms into simple forms of energy.

The spirit of living beings is imo one of the only forms of energy that is constant. It is the spark of all life. You might not be aware of it but that doesnt mean it doesn't exists, it just means you are not aware of it.

[edit on 24-6-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


let me make one thing very clear

I understand the question

You on the other hand try and answer it.



the question is what propagates the very answer you get.

so forget god and forget aliens..

for they are one of the same thing

a question

understand what you ask.. then you understand what the answer will be

and yes i can read your mind.. by the very nature of you speaking

for when you speak it always a question in order for you to get your own answer

correct?

or is it that humans made computers based on the logic of human thought?

what part am i missing?

god? aliens?

sorry i am not that inept

and i do not care

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


by your own statement you prove my point

read what you said then go look in the mirror and try work out what part of your body is matter and what is energy

funny don't you think?

you mind has no shape but your body does?

sound the universe to me does it not?

so the question you need to be asking sir is

why the F are you asking to begin with?

would it not be logical to ask because you are in fact not the one asking the question resulting in a paradox / infintiy ?

that self replicates causing you to see pattens and shapes?



you live inside a question .. the question is represented as a physical thing

its called the universe

much like your mind

reply to post by symmetricAvenger


And the question then would be "who am I"?

Next.

Perhaps us less advanced folks can now have a conversion, about something.. or nothing..

Btw, your routine, your "Schtick" is a form of passive aggressive behavior. And that's not a question, just an observation.

Look at the wisdom in my signature.

Also read "The Secret Of The Ages" by Robert Collier and "Think And Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill.

reply to post by OmegaPoint


look at you your own word

"who am i"

please tell me what the first word is?

WHO

is that not the answer to the very question you seek? WHO?

do you not understand you question for a reason in order to get answers?

would seem silly would it not to understand the very basic concept of how the function of life works?

you question for what reason?

do you know how a conversation works?

You ask for a reason for the answer is a a function of how you work

every time you speak you ask a question for it is needed in order for you to self gratify you own reason to be here.

if you can not understand what it is you are doing then you fail.

the human race is asking WHY/who/what/when/were

is that not a clue?

the very action of asking is the reason why

you live inside a question, you did not ask nor understand

better to understand the question than to guess the answer is it not?

and i will pass on the other part of your words as i find no time for flatulent people

i dont want to be off topic here...

matter is real. yes . but its not about matter..

You see matter is a metaphor for a physical object.. not some crazy something!!

energy is what makes matter work.. they are both the same..

You can not destroy matter nor energy.. they are co intermingled

I am trying to show you in a very basic way here

Your body is the same as matter and energy

one of the same thing!

what made both should be the question you ask for they are like life and death

matter/energy



understand something here

we are BOTH

this is our job as humans

we are here to keep the question going.. if we fail.. well im sure someone can make a thread about it

Originally posted by symmetricAvenger

by your own statement you prove my point

Big difference you stated matter and energy are very different, yet we know that matter and energy cannot be separate.

You try too hard and confuse even the statements you make.

BTW, you can't read my mind. What i write is "part of what I think" but it is not my mind.

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Look at the wisdom in my signature.

Also read "The Secret Of The Ages" by Robert Collier and "Think And Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill.

Found it in electronic version on the net. Thanks for the recommendation.

"The Secret Of The Ages"
www.hinduwebsite.com...

Edit: And I do think that the creation of the universe DID emerge from the question "who am I"? And everything else thereafter, unto infinity, is a continual mutual exploration of the question and answer involving that originating fundamental question, so I'm thankful to you avenger for at least serving as the foil against which this has been illuminated.

Perhaps your raising of the question of the question IS helpful, but your presumption to know, that's just ego based passive aggressive stuff, but that's ok, we all have our schitck, or that thing we do which works for us, so no judgement, but you ought to look in the mirror from our perspective and note your style and tone, you operate as if you have it all figured out, by wrapping yourself in enigmatic riddles about the question. And that's convenient, when a meaningful life expression automatically implies a question, so you can employ this method ad infinitim, and it appears to give you a self satified sense of being a guru.

[edit on 24-6-2009 by OmegaPoint]

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


im sorry to burst your bubble but they are not



matter and energy are one of the same thing..

yin.yang

Body.mind

please try to understand what it is i am saying

[edit on 24-6-2009 by symmetricAvenger]

reply to post by OmegaPoint


Glad I could be of service to you.

Ever since I've been applying the principles I've learned about how life operates, things have been going really well. so I'm glad to share spiritual wisdom with others.

reply to post by OmegaPoint


I am just doing my job.

I am not here to save your planet nor am i here to tell you, that you are wrong.

All i am here to do is give a message

and the message?

understand why it is you ask.

for the reason why is the very answer to the question

you see for me its hard.. to talk and type in this way.

all i wish to do is to show you why you are asking.. for the question or the function of it is the very thing you are inside

it is not our choice.. never has never will be.. but to have humilty and understand you are a result and needed

is that not a gift?


i am here only to give a message... im not special nor am i better.. i just have a job to do

i know its hard to understand what i say but please do not think i am better than you

but i am here to help you understand what it is all of you are asking and why

"trust me i did not want this job"... but was it my choice? Nope

i feel like jeebus.. tho granted i am not// but the stigma is all the same

reply to post by symmetricAvenger


Yet you claimed.

Atoms are not solid objects..

Yet we do know that electrons, which are part of atoms, manifest themselves in both particle (matter) and wave (energy) form.

As I was saying, you are trying too hard to sound mystical hence obscuring, and even at times not making sense.

The mind is a lot more complex than a square. There is nothing complex about a square.

Don't try so hard to sound mystical, and then it might make more sense.

Anyway, noone has all the awnsers. You can't say what I or other people can, or can't do, just like I can't say without proof what you can, or cannot do.

[edit on 25-6-2009 by ElectricUniverse]