Are people/men naturally sexist to women?

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
IMO, men have treated women awfully in history, but this is only because they had the physical size to have the ability to do so.

Society has always treated men more poorly than women.

What percentage of all conscripted soldiers who have ever served and died throughout history have been women?

Men die to protect women's lives...

How is this not oppression of men?

-Edrick

reply to post by Donnie Darko


I think religion plays a part in it, but I think that the tendency for male dominated tribal/social groups within primates is pretty well established. To say that we are "naturally" inclined to male dominated societies means that we evolved as a species generally within groups dominated by males. In our closest relatives - the Great Apes - Gorillas and Chimpanzees both form male-centered groups. The orangutan is a bit too solitary for solid consideration in this example, so we'll let them go for the time being.

However, there is a species of Chimpanzee which is even closer related to humans - the Bonobo. Bonobo chimps form their groups around matriarch females. Now while we don't know the gender heirarchy of the many extinct hominids leading up to our present time - I think fossil evidence (that we can find) may suggest that male dominated social groups were the norm - by the increased amount of primitive weaponry and violent wounds found on male skeletons. Though this in itself is not much evidence, as even in female lead Bonobo groups - it is the males who patrol the groups territory and engage in the hunting and fighting. (Bonobo groups themselves are peaceful, but they still attack and kill outsiders)

I would say that socially, we tend to lean towards male dominated/female subjugated groupings - but that doesn't mean a society can't take other forms quite easily - or change from male to female (or both) dominated several times throughout the generations.

Religion is simply prey to this tendency, and when they create their myths and their doctrines - it reflects the male centered society which created it. If that society is successful, and the religion spreads - it can become ingrained socially, reinforcing the social structure for the individuals within that group as a sort of feedback loop. Again, this doesn't mean it can't change... even within the confines of a male-centric religion. Look at the way contemporary Christians view women in regards to Islamic Fundamentalists - or historical Christian practices. This was brought about by a change in society outside of religion, and the religion partially incorporated it as part of the social norms.

Originally posted by Edrick

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
IMO, men have treated women awfully in history, but this is only because they had the physical size to have the ability to do so.

Society has always treated men more poorly than women.

What percentage of all conscripted soldiers who have ever served and died throughout history have been women?

Men die to protect women's lives...

How is this not oppression of men?

-Edrick

I don't know. Before 1900, hell, before 1940, life for everyone pretty much sucked royally. Women were oppressed and basically enslaved, men were expended in war.

Today, life is fairly good, at least in the nicer countries, for both sexes, but it's still overall nicer for men I think, because people take men more seriously. But in some ways I do envy women, because they are beautiful beings.

Originally posted by Edrick


Now, here is the REAL question...

Since women and men have different strengths and weaknesses (Admittedly) do you think they should have the same responsibilities?

-Edrick

Well, overall I don't think I have a right to say what other individuals should or should not do. I don't think we're necessarily limited in the roles we can fill, except those where we have natural physical limitations (men can't give birth to babies, women can't stand on a sidewalk and pee on a 2nd story window).

When it comes to "work", I think if a woman endeavors to do a "man's job", it's her choice, but she should be prepared to work with men and not necessarily be treated special. And the same goes for men doing a "woman's job", though I'm not sure anymore what a woman's job is supposed to be.

Personally, I'm a stay-at-home mom and part-time freelance writer from home, my husband and I work together writing actually and he is home all the time as well.

Although we're both fully capable of doing all the around-the-house/kids responsibilities, I do all the cooking/cleaning/changing diapers because he's not particularly good at those things (lacks training/practice), while his "family-time" is based more on teaching them rather than taking care of them in a physical sense.

Ultimately, I don't think society should dictate to people what their responsibilities are. I think that needs to be determined by the couple, according to their strengths and weaknesses (both natural and learned).

It's been personally difficult for me to resign myself to being a mom (my natural role) after growing up with society telling me I could "do anything a man can do". I still have people (mostly women) I know asking me when I'm going to "go out and get a real job"...

I don't know if that answers your question, but I did the best I could.

reply to post by eMachine

Well, overall I don't think I have a right to say what other individuals should or should not do. I don't think we're necessarily limited in the roles we can fill, except those where we have natural physical limitations (men can't give birth to babies, women can't stand on a sidewalk and pee on a 2nd story window).

Yes, generally speaking, we are not only limited by what roles we CAN fill, but due to economics, we are INCLINED to roles that we excel at.

This is what Gender is all about.... specialization.

IT is generally more efficient for the purposes of time spent gaining experience to divide labor among those who are grouped to provide this labor.

Generally this amounts to child rearing.

Men are more physically inclined, Spatially aware, and comfortable with being away from the comforts of society.

Thus, men are tasked with Hunting, Gathering, Away from home occupations, hard labor, etc...

And women are more adept at the "Soft touch" of child rearing (instilling self respect / love in the child as they mature) keeping the household (cave) in good condition (Tending the fire) basic education of the youth, and the finer more delicate social aspects of society (getting the household involved in social functions, etc)

(Note, this is generally speaking, and historically speaking)

This division of labor allowed each sex to specialize in the fields that they excelled at, and made the WHOLE more able, and productive than the summation of the constituent parts.

The primary reason that biology has tasked the female with child REARING is due to this division of labor.

The woman must carry the child for almost a year, and at that time, she typically must depend upon others for survival.

Thus, it is fitting for the female to specialize in the more "Reproductive and Social" aspects of life, and for the man to specialize in the more productive and dangerous aspects.

When it comes to "work", I think if a woman endeavors to do a "man's job", it's her choice, but she should be prepared to work with men and not necessarily be treated special. And the same goes for men doing a "woman's job", though I'm not sure anymore what a woman's job is supposed to be.

Typically these Gender defined roles were ones that were suited to the nature of one sex or another.

Jobs that involve caring for anouther (Nursing, etc) are typically understood to be a woman's job, because (And I dont think anyone here will disagree with me here) the nature of that job typically suits women better than men.

Jobs that involve Raw strength, endurance of strength, abstract mathematical ability, spacial awareness, etc are typically understood to be Men's jobs, because the nature of the job typically suits men better.

The preceding were generalizations, but for the majority, it should be understood that they are absolutely true.

Personally, I'm a stay-at-home mom and part-time freelance writer from home, my husband and I work together writing actually and he is home all the time as well.

Although we're both fully capable of doing all the around-the-house/kids responsibilities, I do all the cooking/cleaning/changing diapers because he's not particularly good at those things (lacks training/practice), while his "family-time" is based more on teaching them rather than taking care of them in a physical sense.

Yes, families divide their labor not out of obligation, or historical tradition, but on WHO does WHAT JOB better.

Who is more suited for what role.

And typically, this is what TRADITIONAL gender roles are based on.

Ultimately, I don't think society should dictate to people what their responsibilities are. I think that needs to be determined by the couple, according to their strengths and weaknesses (both natural and learned).

Precisely... and if society would tell all women that they should not be a stay at home mom if they want to, then THAT is technically speaking... OPPRESSION of women.

It's been personally difficult for me to resign myself to being a mom (my natural role) after growing up with society telling me I could "do anything a man can do". I still have people (mostly women) I know asking me when I'm going to "go out and get a real job"...

Exactly... these are the same people who think that a faceless stranger would be better suited to raising their children than they would.

What these "Feminists" forget, too often, is that raising children is ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT JOBS in the world.

One that should not lightly be adjudicated to a random stranger because they feel that "MONEY" is more important than their children's upbringing.

I don't know if that answers your question, but I did the best I could.

IT was a wonderful and honest response, I hope you enjoy mine.



-Edrick

There is nothing wrong with viewing another person (man or woman) as a sexual objects... the problem is when that is all you view them as.

Sexism towards women doesn't exist and any woman who says it does is just worrying her pretty little self for nothing!

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


That is utterly absurd...

Sexism and discrimination based on gender is all too real... just ask your wife. I am sure she could enlighten you.

[edit on 6/20/2009 by AshleyD]

reply to post by Edrick


A very rational and reasonable perspective.
I'm inclined to agree.

Why do men create societies based on their own values and needs, and females forced to comply?

I think everything about a person, personality and opinion, is a product of their environment and situations that've come to pass in one's life. That includes sexism. HOWEVER, I do not think it is a naturally occurring thing.

I saw an item on BBC or CNN today about an Afghani female singer who performs on Afghan TV. She began to dance and the male audience recoiled with horror. Then as she danced her headscarf dropped revealing her hair and following this she and her family received death threats.

Last week on BBC I watched a British chick, a flight attendant spend some time with Kenyan women living and working in their tribe with them.

Those women were treated like dirt and this British woman could not stop crying. It was embarrassing how weak she was.

She herself commented how Western women have it easy.

Regards the OP...

Women have just as repulsive pet bigotries about men. Especially in custody disputes women treat men like disposable sperm donors so be careful where this debate leads you because I think women are no less bigoted than men.

The sexes are just different and you'll find you sleep better at night when you just accept that fact.

Originally posted by HulaAnglers
Why do men create societies based on their own values and needs, and females forced to comply?

I own a bar and people watching is most enlightening.

It is a game HulaAnglers and most women even when they complain not only accept the way it is but prefer men to be neanderthals.

Men don't create societies on their own.

Women signal their acceptance and encouragement of men.

You may not like the society we live in, but believe me, if women really wanted it any differently it would change in a heartbeat.

Also I think it's a bit rich of you to assume that men have everything their way. In child custody women get everything their way 90% of the time.

Isn't it just the way god iintended it to be. Man is bigger because he was designed to be the hairy hunter. To go out and bring back food for the family while women are slighter built because they were designed to wash dishes, hoover and shop for shoes. . !

Originally posted by The Killah29
It stems from religion, espescially Christianity.

(No, I'm not Christian, however...)

I think people like you need to take a class in philosophy or crack open a Bible, so you don't spout off more generalized arguments that are without substance. According to Christianity, men and women are equal. However, the man is supposed to be THE MAN in relationships. That's not to say you shouldn't listen to your wife, that wives are subhuman, that they are stupid, or that they should be denied rights. Instead, that is to say men hold the deciding vote within intimate relationships. Putting aside Christianity (or any religion) for a moment, women are naturally subservient to men. Why do you think women get turned on by “bad boys”? They are attracted to bad boys because bad boys are assertive (but to a fault, which in the problem with them). Women don’t want or respect whiney guys who they can walk all over. They want and respect men who act like men. That is nature. Men due to their higher amounts of the hormone testosterone are principally bigger, stronger, and more assertive than women. This equates to a dominate role in society and in intimate relationships. That's why it was women who were so-called oppressed for generations in the USA and not men. That is why women are still being "oppressed" in third-world countries. Men tell women to take a backseat and women by and large listen. The problem with this type of mentality is that rights were/are being withheld from women because of their less active role in society. Consequently, the feminist movement was born.

In regards to the original topic of this thread, I see more sexism against men than women, so I don’t know where you got your ideas from. I can’t go through a day without seeing some kind of anti-male campaign, ad, or study. I can’t even sit down, relax, and watch a TV show without seeing some kind of sexism directed at men. Let me give you an example of this misandrist propaganda. I saw this video about two days ago. Can you figure out what’s wrong with it? www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
Idk, Asian society does historically seem to be more egalitarian ... hmmm...

You must be kidding. China buries their girls. And the Japanese are very traditional when it comes to who should bring home the bacon and who should cook it. Japanese women are very submissive.

Originally posted by HulaAnglers
Why do men create societies based on their own values and needs, and females forced to comply?

As a man, I don't see how Affirmative Action or how women's studies college courses (where's men's studies?) benefit me, but let say this, our society is the way it is because of men and women. Women are roughly half the population and if they really wanted to change something on a fundamental level, then they could. The question is why won't they?

[edit on 21-6-2009 by YSM85]

I don't know but I do take the biblical point of view:
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

In other words, there will be always be anguish. For the woman, she will be divided on wanting to be herself yet in compliance with sociality's norms. The stress of over emotional attachment to her man, yet having to sacrifice some individuality in process.

For the man, he will compelled to strive harder and do more than is absolutely needed to just get by. Be it rearranging the furniture or remodeling the house. In order to keep the woman he must not only provide, but to comply with her wishes no matter how unneeded they are to his mind.

In modern society (America) the bigger problems stem from the flexibility of choice and ease of replacement. Men are inclined to affairs over divorce naturally. Not only because of the lost of assets but the natural means of an affair is doing just enough to get by without the extra work of a divorce. Also, women have a competitiveness in obtaining what they can not have so married/attached men are more attractive in a "forbidden fruit" kind of way. As for the woman having an affair, well the old adage of so long as she is willing to offer hers, she can plenty of what a guy has. As very few men will pass up "free sex". In a guy's mind, it is there and no effort to obtain it is needed...perfect for the male mentality of getting by.

But to bring up the old toilet seat argument, if it is down we lift it up and don't complain. You know you need it down, so you should always check that it is down. For me personally, I always keep it closed (and yes, guys, you would not believe the amount of grief I caught over that) So to women everywhere I say, don't be lazy when it comes to having to pee.

Originally posted by mastermind77
I think womens attitudes and actions towards men cause them to be sexist.

For me, im not sexist beyond a joke or two for fun. Thats all. Yet women have left my heart broken on many occassion so i have to release the pain of rejection. And seeing so many women constantly use men, having 2 or 3 boyfriends and perhaps hundreds of partners. Is it any wonder why the sexes are the way they are towards each other?

Theres no respect on either side fully and most of what we see today is contrived affection from sex and human biological clocks.

Umm, this occurs on both sides of the street dear. If I had a dollar for everytime a man broke my heart, lied to me, cheated on me, did me wrong while I was faithful and true to them I would have more than a few bucks. Men use women as well. Men cheat on women as well. Men play childish games on women as well. Yet and still, I don't hate all men and paint them all with the same brush due to my unfortunate experiences in the past.

Originally posted by Edrick

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
IMO, men have treated women awfully in history, but this is only because they had the physical size to have the ability to do so.

Society has always treated men more poorly than women.

What percentage of all conscripted soldiers who have ever served and died throughout history have been women?

Men die to protect women's lives...

How is this not oppression of men?

-Edrick

As always, I believe your unspoken, yet crystal clear contempt towards women shines through on these types of threads that you always seem to flock to, and your zeal causes you to overlook many other facts. What about the scores of women and children who are raped, maimed and abused while men rampage in war? It is even referred to in "holy" books such as the bible and koran that sex slaves are permitted booty (no pun intended) in war. We all know the same things happen this day and age in war too, all too well, thanks to the media and reporters leaking these atrocities out to us. But I guess in your world that is just collateral damage, not oppression. BTW, I am a female veteran who upheld my duty and oath with honor and dignity. But maybe you should run your theory here past a few Congoese, Iraqi or Rwandan females.

Originally posted by HulaAnglers
Why do men create societies based on their own values and needs, and females forced to comply?

Because the women allow it. Who raises the boys? The women do. They have plenty of power, but sometimes they do not use it for whatever reason.