Are the soldiers who protect America bad?

reply to post by badmedia


you are not going to like this at all, but the reason you, I , and everyone else in America are loosing freedom, is because we as a whole are lazy. Every one of us. You, me, them. We would rather sit here and type about how wrong we are being done, But we are not willing to march, or protest, or go to Washington and Stand up. We would rather complain. Here on ATS there are roughly 12,000 members I think. Out of those, the overwhelming majority know why you are mad at the government. Out there, in the world, most, I repeat, MOST people have no idea why you are mad. They don't even know they lost rights. What are you going to do about it? I await your answer.

reply to post by badmedia


Those defending it are the victims of propaganda. The first thing they do when you go to bootcamp is indoctrinate you into the 'mob mentality'. Basically, they empty out your brain and fill it with their way of thinking. Most former military members get over it a few years after they get out and begin to think for themselves again, but it's a process and takes time. There are a few who never buy into it (I was one) and see the world for what it is. Remember that most people are still very young and impressionable when they join up, and are still pretty young when the get out (18 when they join and only 22 when discharged). Remember to consider the source before you judge. Young people sometimes believe and say things that years later when they are older and wiser they regret. This does not make them 'bad', just misguided.

reply to post by network dude


I answered you question as best I could. I don't believe the military is fighting or dying for my freedom, they are fighting for the rich.

You said...

Think about a band of bullys with guns walking up to you and taking that Twinkie right out of your hand.

It is happening everyday in the US, only they aren't just taking twinkies (I'd gladly give em a frigging twinke).
They are seizing our homes, our cars, and our bank accounts using the power they have acquired from stealing our freedoms. You said you didn't care about protecting us, you cared about protecting our freedoms. What happened?

We're not mudslinging we're pointing out that every time we get "protected" during one of these invasions, we lose more freedoms.

reply to post by Sundancer


no, you did not answer my question. If there was no military, who would protect you? Who would keep you safe and free from outside tyranny?

The domestic tyranny is something we have to fix as citizens.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by badmedia

 

you are not going to like this at all, but the reason you, I , and everyone else in America are loosing freedom, is because we as a whole are lazy. Every one of us. You, me, them. We would rather sit here and type about how wrong we are being done, But we are not willing to march, or protest, or go to Washington and Stand up. We would rather complain. Here on ATS there are roughly 12,000 members I think. Out of those, the overwhelming majority know why you are mad at the government. Out there, in the world, most, I repeat, MOST people have no idea why you are mad. They don't even know they lost rights. What are you going to do about it? I await your answer.

I'm not going to do anything about it. I think the people are getting exactly what they deserve. They do not understand the true price of freedom, and so they will not get it. They have openly asked for everything we have. In their actions and usually bias over wanting to control another they have themselves said it is ok for someone else to control them.

As it turns out, when you decide you want to choose for another person, say on things like gay marriage, or on the other "side" wanting to choose how much another person should give to welfare etc or whatever, what you are actually saying is "It is ok for 1 person to decide and control another person". Sure, they do it because they think they are getting what they want, but they have given that ok.

Who am I to stop them from getting what they deserve?

But don't tell me they are fighting for my freedoms, because they aren't. And don't ask me to agree with things as being right, because they aren't.

And if someday, the American public should happen to wake up and no longer say those things are ok, then great. Until then, they get what they deserve. And that is not me being hateful, that is just the simple fact of the matter. Can't live in a society without theft if you are a theif, your very presence makes it impossible. Can't live in a society that is free, if you yourself are not willing to give that freedom to others, and you certainly can't live in a world without wars if you yourself cause and support wars.

All I can do is my part and not contribute to such things and point them out for what they are.

But again, if they are fighting for my freedom as is the claim, then prove it.

I volunteered, spent some time in the U.S. military, received an honorable discharge, but never felt comfortable within the archaic system.

When one is threatened, a choice has to be made. Do you "turn the other cheek" or do you “take an eye for an eye?” Experiment with these choices in your daily life, and be mindful of their consequence.

There was a time when I wouldn’t think twice about “taking an eye for an eye.” But I’ve come to realize that by making what might seem at first the more difficult choice, and “turning the other cheek,” there are incredible rewards that follow. These rewards are associated with the universal law of “cause and effect.”

We live in a world of paradox, of which darkness / light is an example. It’s inevitable that sooner or later one will be confronted by the forces of darkness. For those who feel they may have no choice other than “taking an eye for an eye,” you may want to study :

Sun Tzu’s dissertation on “The Art of War.” www.chinapage.com...

Peace on Earth!

[edit on 19-6-2009 by seasoul]

Originally posted by network dude
no, you did not answer my question. If there was no military, who would protect you? Who would keep you safe and free from outside tyranny?

The domestic tyranny is something we have to fix as citizens.

Again, how is the war in Iraq protecting me?

The wars and such and the fallacies people believe such as "support the troops" is part of the "domestic tyranny". Rational thinking is set aside in favor of "all for the troops". But the truth is, we treat the troops like crap. If you want to support the troops, then bring them home. It's not supporting the troops, it's supporting the war. It's not defending freedom, it's defending corporate interests abroad.

All the things and domestic tyranny have been done in the name of the things we talking about. And you are still using those same justifications now. Because it's "for the troops", normal rules don't apply. Hypocrisy is suddenly "ok".

And I am the one who is made out to be the "bad" guy because I don't support it. Do I want to take away your freedoms? No. I stick up for them. I support not sending the troops into harms way over the whims of politicians and power. But I am the "Bad American".

reply to post by network dude


You said you weren't fighting to protect us, that you were fighting to protect our freedom.
I'm saying... I don't see anyone fighting right now in the middle east as protecting my freedom! They are protecting the interests of the rich. My uncle works for blackwater he's protecting the interests of the rich in the middle east - not me, same as the US military - only he gets paid better and doesn't claim he's there for my freedom.

reply to post by badmedia


could you please point to anywhere in my question that I mentioned the war in Iraq. I didn't. I already said, the war in Iraq was something I did not agree with, no do I agree with any war. War is waged by cowards with money and fraught by heroes win none. But a soldier is there for the simple purpose to defend the USA. That is why they volunteered. Whether they accomplish that goal or not remains to be seen, but as of 8:28pm on Friday night, you still are in a free country supported by soldiers.

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


I joined the military at the age of 18, so I actually understand all that. My little brother is in Iraq right now.

I do not blame those who get stuck in a situation. I do not blame those who are simply misguided. But I do blame and argue against those who support the actions.

I'm not going to pretend they are doing the right thing just so they can feel good. Especially when to do so is to support the continuance of those same actions.

I'm not going to go spit on the troops, and don't hate them. Being in the military I know most of them are just regular folks no different than those you meet on the streets. Very few are really anything like the way movies and commercials portray them, and the majority of us kind of rolled our eyes at them(called them suck ups, but not in such a nice manner).

I understand, but it doesn't make it right. And sooner or later people are going to have to realize it.

reply to post by Sundancer


what about the good things that the soldiers are doing? They are in the middle east helping citizens. They are building schools, and making sure it is safe for the kids to get to them. Ask any soldier if he likes going to war over training in Montana. I can tell you what his answer will be. You are still missing the 800 pound gorilla in the middle of the room. Because there are soldiers, because there is a military, nobody will come here and threaten your freedom. What the government is doing to your freedom, they are doing right in front of you on C-SPAN. And you are just sitting there. I am just sitting there. I am waiting for a leader. I will be there to do my part. Will you?

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by badmedia

 

could you please point to anywhere in my question that I mentioned the war in Iraq. I didn't. I already said, the war in Iraq was something I did not agree with, no do I agree with any war. War is waged by cowards with money and fraught by heroes win none. But a soldier is there for the simple purpose to defend the USA. That is why they volunteered. Whether they accomplish that goal or not remains to be seen, but as of 8:28pm on Friday night, you still are in a free country supported by soldiers.

I understand, truly I do. I understand they signed up for that. I signed up for that reason. But the question remains - is that what they are actually doing.

This is why it's bad to think of things in terms of groups. The bad hides behind the good. In this case, the bad is hiding behind those who signed up and want to do noble things. IMO, the bad must be pointed out. Think of the troops who signed up because they want to defend your freedom and ignore the rest. No, I won't do it.

I'm also in a "free" country with a bunch of drug addicts, lieing politicians and priests who touch little boys. Are they also keeping me free? And what about all the countries with military and no freedom? As it turns out, military != freedom. Military = borders you can control.



[edit on 19-6-2009 by badmedia]

Soldiers today aren't disrespected like they were in the past. I think as a nation we learned that what happened after Vietnam and how those men and women were treated was seriously wrong.

I can back those words up too.

Just last week my youngest hopped on a plane at Bagram AFB in Afghanistan, flew to Kuwait where she boarded another plane full of soldiers coming home and flew to Dallas.

At Dallas the plane full of soldiers was met by cheering crowds welcoming them home. She had to walk through throngs of people clapping, trying to hug her and slap her on the back or shake her hand. The Vietnam vets were the loudest of the bunch. Perhaps they have made peace with their mistreatment.

She's home for a three week R&R and then returns to Afghanistan, but she hasn't been mistreated by anyone. She's partying a hell of a lot more than I like, but I'm her father so what do I know.

Perhaps, just perhaps, America has learned to appreciate it's soldiers.

From what I've seen, they have.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Sundancer

 

what about the good things that the soldiers are doing? They are in the middle east helping citizens. They are building schools, and making sure it is safe for the kids to get to them. Ask any soldier if he likes going to war over training in Montana. I can tell you what his answer will be. You are still missing the 800 pound gorilla in the middle of the room. Because there are soldiers, because there is a military, nobody will come here and threaten your freedom. What the government is doing to your freedom, they are doing right in front of you on C-SPAN. And you are just sitting there. I am just sitting there. I am waiting for a leader. I will be there to do my part. Will you?

Yes, please stare at the left hand while the right hand is busy doing other things. Pay no mind to the other hand folks, it's only the good hand you should be looking at. Pay no attention to the things going on, pay attention to our good intentions. Because it really is "for the children", it really is "for freedom and democracy". Look at all these good things being done. Look, we are rebuilding the schools we bombed. We are doing good things.

Sorry, I know how slight of hand and illusions work. I look at both hands, not just the hand you try to draw attention too.

I'd really like to know how any US military action SINCE WW2 has had anything to do with any AMERICAN'S freedom. I mean, it's something every American hears a zillion times a year (that the military protects our freedom), but I've never heard it substantiated with any facts. I'm not being deliberately contrarian. I just want to know how everyone believes the assertion of any type of savior quality to the US military (post-WW2). When has there ever been a real threat to the US since 1945? Obviously I don't believe al Qaida or any other fanatical terrorist group qualifies as such... enough to justify the astronomical level of military worship and spending here in the US.

reply to post by network dude

I am waiting for a leader. I will be there to do my part. Will you?

Nope, won't be there. For years I tried to warn people about what was happening. I tried to get people to stand together. No one listened.

I left - I'm done trying.

There are hundreds of thousands of people enlisted in the US army. There are even more people who are afilitated with the military like contractors and civilian employees. It is impossible to make categorical characterizations about all of them, yet as someone who lives in a military town, I have noticed some common traits that many of these people have.

My gripe with whom I perceive to be the typical person affiliated with the military is that they see the military as their own personal entitlement fund. If anybody dare even think about stopping their gravy train, they will immediately call that person a traitor or unAmerican, even though the country and the world as a whole might be better off if US military activity decreased.

Furthermore, I think the typical person in the US military is rather arrogant. They think that they are the only reason why America as we know it exists. I am not "free" because of today's military. I do not live a comfortable lifestyle because of today's military. The military has done nothing to help the average American in the last 50 years.

The fact is military is an unsuccessful and unproductive organization. It only won one war in the last 50 years. It has done nothing to repell any attack on US soil in the last 50 years. If any sector of American society should be given credit for America's greatness, it should not be the military.

reply to post by Dean Goldberry


The only thing I can think of that the military has done for the average US citizen is that the first gulf war helped keep the market for oil from going haywire. If Sadaam Hussein took over a large chunk of the middle east, it could have hurt the average person at the gas pump.

Of course, paying a little less at the gas pump may not qualify as freedom. You might be correct in pointing out that the means amount of money the US spent on defense and the first gulf war could have been spent on better things. You might also be correct by pointing out the second Iraq war led to higher gas prices.

reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint


Oh, ouch, you'd better get the ice pack out. You're going to get some air smack downs for sure for that one lol.

I have to agree, it would be better for both the US taxpayer and the entire world if we had a much smaller military. Mexico doesn't need bases in every country and neither do we.

reply to post by Dean Goldberry


From 1946 to 2001, you would be absolutely right, but that reflects on the idiots in Washington and their piss poor decisions in regards to where and when to deploy our troops. The Afghan War, however, has protected your freedom, most notably your freedom to not be terrorized on your own soil. If we had not gone into Afghanistan, Al Queada would still be a significant threat and would have probably struck again and again. Now they are a fractured toothless band of punks. It was the only decision that Bush the window licker made that I agreed with. Iraq on the otherhand falls under the piss poor decision making category. We went there 'cuz he had 'Daddy issues'! I'll say it again, "Don't hate the player (soldiers and sailors), hate the Game (Washington beauracrats protecting their wallets)!"