Is Access to Health Care a Basic Human Right?

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
Oh, a bill!! Well, that was proposed by Democrats in CONGRESS. Just because they are in the same party does not make congressional democrats part of the Administration. Really, do we need to conduct a civics lesson here??? And until it's law, it's going to see a buttload of changes. [/panties=wad]

You really need to catch up with what is being discussed in the forums...

"More details about public insurance and how lawmakers intend to pay for overhauling the health care system, which could cost more than $1 trillion, are likely to emerge this week when the Senate Finance Committee releases a draft bill. To ease concerns about cost, Obama said Saturday the administration could squeeze $313 billion in savings out of Medicare and Medicaid over the next decade."

www.cbsnews.com...

Originally posted by nunya13
People have the right to health care because they have the RIGHT TO LIVE!

Again ... health care is a service and a commodity.

No one has a 'right' to a service or a commodity.

It must be paid for.

Originally posted by wclv13
The LEAST they can do is make health care free,

NOTHING is free. Someone always has to pay.

And just because someone else makes more $$ than us doesn't give us
the right to take THEIR money to pay for a free market commodity - in
this case - the commodity of health care.

Originally posted by nunya13
The right to live is a commodity?

The right to live is different then a 'right' to health care even though
health care can help keep a person alive.

HEALTH CARE is a commodity that must be purchased.
The doctors and nurses have to pay to go to school.
They have a right to earn back the money they sunk into their education.
They have a right to wages.
The drug companies (even though we hate them) have a right to make
money. That's why they are in business.

DOCTORS HAVE A SERVICE FOR SALE

If you want what they have for sale .. you buy it.
If you cant' afford to buy what is for sale ... then you go without.

That's a commodity.

No one has a right to suck off the doctors just because they have a skill
that someone needs. The doctors have a right to sell their services.
TO STEAL THOSE SERVICES IS SLAVERY FOR THE DOCTORS .

To steal money from those who earn it in order to pay for health care
for those that don't earn it is THEFT .

No one has a right to steal services and no one has a right to steal a
persons money to pay for medical services for someone else.

If people want to freely give money for those services .. that's great.
But to force it is just theft and taking away THEIR right to keep the
money they earn. (slavery).



[edit on 6/15/2009 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by wclv13
Reply to no one in particular:

The PTB have a handle on soooo many things in life for us. They can draft our sons to battle, they tax us to pay for what they think is "good" for us. They flouradate our water, for our "health".

They make laws against consumption of natural growing plants, tell us smoking tobacco is one of the most vile things one can do. Yet polute the air and environment with glee.

The LEAST they can do is make health care free, I mean, they are SO concerned about our health, right??

Great point.

We HAD to bailout the bank companies because, if not, they told us we would be in a world of hurt. But they won't help us out with health care. As if millions of uninsured people isn't a drag on society?

We're going to make you pay taxes so we can put fluoride in your water because it's good for you and you need it. But we won't help you pay for health care when it makes you sick, that's not necessarily something you NEED.

You are required to register to fight in a war, whether it is a just one or not, but until you actually fight in the war we want you to fight in, you have no right to health care. But you should die for your country.

Hey...there we go!! I just figured it out. These people are all really just dying for our country, right? I'm mean, buy the government not helping them with health care they are doing a service to our country by not creating a need for the rest of us to pay more taxes. Gosh, guess I've been wrong all along. Those selfless people! [note extreme sarcasm]

Originally posted by Tinman67
The costs associated with healthcare are bloated from greed, not misuse.
Treatment has become a code word for "get as much as we can out of them" and if you have insurance they'll really sock it to you.

What right in the world could ever be more important than the right to life itself?

REPLY: Greed? The greed comes from tort lawyers who capitalize on the fact that at least ten people will have a negative response to any given treatment and/or drug. heck.... just look at all of the TV ads for greedy ambulance chasers lately.

And, don't forget hat because of the lawyers, doctors pay an average of $250,000.00 per year for liability insurance; where do you think that money will come from? Then there's the fact that doctors who accept Medicaid and Medicare patients are usually paid ony 28 to 35% of whet the services cost.

You can alter the PRICE of any given thing, but you can never alter the COST..... very different things.

Between Social Security and Medicaid, America is in debt $103 TRILLION dollars. Kind of shows you that Socialism can never work. So, if those two programs are any indication, why would you want to give your medical care control to Herr Obama? Government has NEVER made anything run more smoothly or reduced the cost of it. Have you looked at public housing? .... or been to a DOT license branch in any given large city? And HTESE are the people you want running your health care?

reply to post by FlyersFan


Then why is it okay for government workers (the one's who are denying us access to affordable health care) to receive tax payer subsidized health care and not us?

I wonder if the doctor's who treat them feel like their services are being stolen from them. Most likely not. I'm sure they get paid pretty well courtesy of you and me.

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
I hate to break it to you, but the Right was in power and brought about the current economic crisis through deregulation. I suggest a study of American history, 1929-present.

I hate to break it to you but it was a Democrat, Woodrow Wilson, who passed the Federal Reserve Act in 1919, selling us out to a Socialist program in which some bankers were in complete control of the U.S. economy.

It was Democrat Franklin Delano Roosevelt who outlawed the possession of gold in 1933 trapping Americans even more in the paper economy.

Then in 1999 Democrat Bill Clinton signed the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act, repealing the safeguards which were set up in 1933 to prevent another Great Depression, and by which investment bankers, insurance companies and commercial banks were allowed to co-mingle America's savings, which was soon to be known as the greatest destruction of wealth ever seen before. Not to mention that thanks to the Bill Clinton administration banks were giving loans to Americans who could not pay them back...

[edit on 15-6-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


So your saying that not everyone needs or uses health care?

Bud, when you were BORN you used some form of health care. Either by your parents having to pay for it out of their pockets, or by having affordable health coverage. EVERYONE uses some form of health care, even when they cannot afford to pay for it. That is one reason we have so many medical bankruptcies in this country.

You are part of the problem.

Harm None
Peace

Originally posted by zappafan1


Between Social Security and Medicaid, America is in debt $103 TRILLION dollars. Kind of shows you that Socialism can never work.

Really?

Then why is 'socialism' currently working in every other wealth developed nation besides the U.S.?

You know how emergency rooms can't refuse a patient health care? That is because healthcare is a right. In a wealthy nation such as the U.S., that has the faculties to provide all of its citizens with health care, it is a basic right of citizenship in that country.

However, people in this country would rather selfishly pay insurance providers to cover their own care, while those same providers charge them out the ass and then refuse their procedures in their time of need because they didn't fill out the form right.

But as long as you're not paying for another person's care it doesn't matter, right?



People who don't want us to have universal healthcare are SELFISH. The simple fact is that if we had a single payer system, the people who currently pay for healthcare would pay a lot less, and receive better care than they are currently getting! If you honestly want to pay more for healthcare, just so that less fortunate members of society cannot benefit from your tax dollars, then you are extremely self-centered and quite honestly don't deserve to call yourself a member of society.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Sorry that I have a 'real' life and don't spend 24 hours a day combing the internet. That's why some of us use sources to direct others to reference materials. As for the $313 billion, it can be saved by trimming the non-medical beauracracy that has ensnared the medicare/medicaid system, not the actual medical treaments.

The $313 billion savings is in large part made up of savings from three big areas: $110 billion from incorporating productivity adjustments and Medicare payments, $106 billion from reducing disproportionate hospital payments and $75 billion from better pricing of Medicare drugs.

[url=http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/06/obama-identifies-313-billion-for-health-care-through-medicaid-and-medicare-savings-.html]Source[/ url].

See, I do keep up on the topic!

[edit on 15-6-2009 by JaxonRoberts]

Originally posted by FlyersFan


HEALTH CARE is a commodity that must be purchased.
The doctors and nurses have to pay to go to school.
They have a right to earn back the money they sunk into their education.
They have a right to wages.
The drug companies (even though we hate them) have a right to make
money. That's why they are in business.

DOCTORS HAVE A SERVICE FOR SALE

If you want what they have for sale .. you buy it.
If you cant' afford to buy what is for sale ... then you go without.

That's a commodity.

No one has a right to suck off the doctors just because they have a skill
that someone needs. The doctors have a right to sell their services.
TO STEAL THOSE SERVICES IS SLAVERY FOR THE DOCTORS .

Hahaha!

I'll give you a little hint, in a single payer system doctors still get paid, and they are paid very well. Do you honestly think in Europe all of the doctors work for free? Get real.

Is that seriously what you wanted to say? Seriously?

Time to go back to the drawing boards.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Then in 1999 Democrat Bill Clinton signed the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act, repealing the safeguards which were set up in 1933 to prevent another Great Depression, and by which investment bankers, insurance companies and commercial banks were allowed to co-mingle America's savings, which was soon to be known as the greatest destruction of wealth ever seen before. Not to mention that thanks to the Bill Clinton administration banks were giving loans to Americans who could not pay them back...

A bill proposed and passed by a Republican controlled Congress. Deregulation of the banks was started by the Reagan Administration, furthered by the Bush Prime Administration and completed by the Bush Minor Administration. There's enough blame to go around on both sides.

Originally posted by amazed

So your saying that not everyone needs or uses health care?

Oh boy... so you are saying that everyone must have nice cars. Are you saying not everyone needs a car, or some form of transportation? Let's make all transportation free too, since everyone needs it....

There are certain things we as a person have to pay if we want them, a person can't just pay for a small portion of roads because that person, just like many Americans do use many miles of roads....

Every American who has utilities, PAYS FOR THEM, and hence those who pay for these utilities get them. Or are utilities somehow free and I didn't know this?...

In the same manner, Americans should pay for their own health coverage. It should be "affordable", not free.... there is nothing free, as a "free healthcare, or Universal Healthcare would be paid by every American...

Originally posted by amazed
Bud, when you were BORN you used some form of health care. Either by your parents having to pay for it out of their pockets, or by having affordable health coverage. EVERYONE uses some form of health care, even when they cannot afford to pay for it. That is one reason we have so many medical bankruptcies in this country.

You are part of the problem.

Harm None
Peace

Bud, a pregnant woman with no healthcare coverage cannot be denied service. She is giving birth in a hospital, even without coverage.

A man/woman/child who has a broken leg cannot be denied service in a hospital....

There are problems with the healthcare system in the U.S. but THERE ARE MORE problems in the Universal Healthcare systems in other countries.....

People living in countries where there is "universal healthcare" do not get proper care in time. They have to wait in large waiting lists, more than in the U.S. which is why many come to the U.S. to get treatment here....

Yes, there are problems with the healthcare system, but "free healthcare" is not the solution, as "free healthcare" has to be paid somehow...

The Obama administration already said part of the way they will pay for their healthcare reforms will be by cutting down over 300 billion dollars for medicare and medicaid, which will make older people will suffer...

Not to mention that under the Obama administration plans, the government dictates what treatment, if they are cost effective, patients need, instead of the doctors figuring out what treatments people need....

BTW i am part of the problem?.....

You are part of the problem because apparently you claim this is the solution, meanwhile you have never lived under the so wonderful "Universal healthcare system" while I have.





[edit on 15-6-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

[edit on 15-6-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Single payer health care is paid for, by everyone, meaning humanity working in a humane way for the benefit of everyone. Just like those roads you keep mentioning. Everyone uses them, everyone pays taxes for the upkeep of them. Those utilities you speak of, do not cost such an astronomical amount, that we have a horrendous number of people filing bankruptcies because of it. If that ever happens, then we will have people calling for something to be done about it.

Are you implying that we have more of a right to roads to drive on than the health care that everyone uses?

You need to do some more research, because in several other countries, universal health care works and it works well.

Are you aware that the pregnant woman without insurance, can go to the ER when needed, but will then receive an inflated bill to make up for what hospitals can charge those with insurance? If you have insurance hospitals are capped on what they are allowed to charge for the basic, when you do not have insurance, no cap IE without insurance $20 for a single aspirin, with insurance $10 for that aspirin, and then the insurance pays for part of that $10. Yes, a hospital cannot deny services, but they are only required to do the bare minimum, ie stabilize a patient.

Again, I hope you never need the assistance of your fellow citizens.

If everyone had good health coverage, especially children, they would be healthier citizens, and more likely able to live a fulfilling productive life.


Harm None
Peace

Originally posted by mikerussellus
Not trying to sound angry, but since when do we have to GIVE anything to anyone that didn't work for it?

One day when we actually become human?

One day when you are not brainwashed by the corporate machine that anything humane like basic health care is socialism.

When we rise up and ascend beyond the rat chasing the cheese.

Maybe during that time, when you realize the difference between luxury and needs?

Even wolf packs treat each other with more respect than brainwashed corporate bootlickers.

Originally posted by amazed
Single payer health care is paid for, by everyone, meaning humanity working in a humane way for the benefit of everyone.

There are other ways in which we can work to help "humanity"... There is no need for Socialism, or even Communism to be humane...

Americans have been the most humane people in this planet giving more aid to other countries than any others from any form of Socialist countries.

This is apart from the U.S. government sending aid to other countries, and we have been doing this by FREE CHOICE...not by being MANDATORY VOLUNTEERS, like the present administration wants us to be, and how several laws are being passed so Americans can be "MANDATORILY VOLUNTEERED"...

Originally posted by amazed
Just like those roads you keep mentioning. Everyone uses them, everyone pays taxes for the upkeep of them.

.... Because EVEYONE uses them...I, you, or every other American don't use the free healthcare you want to give to others...

Hell why not give free houses to everyone, instead of having affordable housing?....

Everyone needs a place to live right?... So everyone should have a free house....

Originally posted by amazed
Those utilities you speak of, do not cost such an astronomical amount, that we have a horrendous number of people filing bankruptcies because of it. If that ever happens, then we will have people calling for something to be done about it.

So because of your free healthcare people will not file bankrupcy?..... Please, then tell me why countries which have free healthcare have more people not being able to make ends meet than ever before?...

i have family in Spain also, i lived in Spain for almost 10 years, yet there is more unemployment there than in the U.S.....

Originally posted by amazed
Are you implying that we have more of a right to roads to drive on than the health care that everyone uses?

You have got to be kidding... Are you implying people have no right to housing? Then why not give everyone a free house too?..... After all, it is the right of everyone to have their own houses....

Originally posted by amazed
You need to do some more research, because in several other countries, universal health care works and it works well.

Oh i did, in fact i did more than research. I lived 8 years in a Communist dictatorship that has what the Left likes to call free healthcare, and I have seen how children starting from 11-12 years old, my two older sisters, were sent to do MANDATORY COMMUNITY SERVICE for the good of the Communist nation...

I lived almost 10 years in Spain, and I remember very well the so wonderful "Universal Healthcare system" in which doctors, and dentists could only perform certain procedures, since the other choices are not available, and only certain procedures can be done. that's without talking about the waiting periods. I lost two molars because a Spanish dentist, in the general hospital, didn't know how to solve a problem i had, and later on i found out they didn't have to pull out those molars.

Originally posted by amazed
If you have insurance hospitals are capped on what they are allowed to charge for the basic, when you do not have insurance, no cap IE without insurance $20 for a single aspirin, with insurance $10 for that aspirin, and then the insurance pays for part of that $10. Yes, a hospital cannot deny services, but they are only required to do the bare minimum, ie stabilize a patient.

You will have to provide proof of what you just said. But did you know that several Canadian pregnant women have to come to the U.S. to get proper care?... I have given that, and other links in the past to the truth of Socialized medicine.

Originally posted by amazed
Again, I hope you never need the assistance of your fellow citizens.

This has nothing to do with "assisting other citizens". I have done my share of "assisting other citizens" by FREE CHOICE... not MANDATORILY have everyone do some sort of MANDATORY SERVICE, in this case having to pay for everyone's healthcare....

Originally posted by amazed
If everyone had good health coverage, especially children, they would be healthier citizens, and more likely able to live a fulfilling productive life.

Harm None
Peace

Hence there is need for AFFORDABLE HEALTHCARE, not "Universal healthcare" which is paid by every American including those who do not make much money....

My ex-wife was born in Colombia, yet she still wants to live here as a U.S. citizen. She also knows very well the problems with "Universal Healthcare", and she, like I would rather pay for affordable healthcare than have all the problems that come with "Universal Healthcare".

Now listen to this video, and see some of the faults of such a "Universal healthcare'..

TV Spot Survivor



[edit on 15-6-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

There definitely should be a "standard". OF course, that word is different for everyone.

reply to post by FlyersFan


We pay for a Lawyer when someone gets arrested and cannot afford and attorney, IS that SOCIALISMS?

Originally posted by mental modulator

We pay for a Lawyer when someone gets arrested and cannot afford and attorney, IS that SOCIALISMS?

Because that has been part of the U.S. system, and btw do you know how well such people who cannot afford good lawyers are defended?... Not very well... The same will happen with a Universal healthcare.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Again ... health care is a service and a commodity.

No one has a 'right' to a service or a commodity.

In the end the debate is about "civilization".

A very long time ago people gathered into tribes, groups etc. with the instictual understanding that collectively we could advance as a species as opposed to individuals fending for own survival. We could hunt and farm together, specialize in tasks and skills, defend eachother..and care for eachother when we are sick, thus extending the lifespan of all our people....the advantages of civilization. It's how we got this far.

Fast forward to present day nations. What do we offer eachother? Well in my humble opinion, in a "civilized" nation we would not let our fellow countrymen suffer and die because they can not afford help.

We can have a capitalistic structure in place to incentivize everyone to contribute, but disease and illness does not obey the laws of capitalism...it does not strike just those who are not contributing....accidents, illness and diseases are RANDOM acts of nature....the VERY THINGS that humans first gathered together to combat along with droughts and famines etc.

As a "civilization"...YES.. we should all agree to care for our injured, sick, diseased as well as expect our fellow tribe members to care for us.

It is not an affront to capitalism...just those making tons of money in the health care industry.





[edit on 15-6-2009 by maybereal11]

No -- demanding free services from another person should not be a right. You do, however, have the choice to eat correctly, stay out of the sun, exercise, and not participate in dangerous activities.