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Is Access to Health Care a Basic Human Right?

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posted on Jun, 15 2009 @ 07:06 PM
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Why is socialized health care the be-all and end-all of being a 'civilized' country? This pisses me off because your telling me I'm selfish for not using my own money to keep some vegetable alive until the relatives finally pull the plug. Your telling me I'm selfish for wanting the American people to be able to lift themselves out of a bad situation.

I don't have, and will never have insurance and I certainly won't be around when universal health care is passed. My health is none of your business. If I want to pig out and die at 40 because my heart gives out I can. If I want to smoke until I die of lung cancer, it's none of your business. If I want to drink until my liver fails, IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

That's why Health care is different from roads and utilities. And in case you 'compassionate' and 'humane' sissies didn't know, our education system has completely fallen over the deep end. Compared to Private educational facilities, reading scores from 8th grade fall 18 percent lower than the average Private school child's reading score. And the average private school child's math score was 12 percent higher than the public school student. This is coming from a government run study!

The Nation's Report Card

Our students don't know where any country is in the world and from what I've researched hardly any student knows more than five other countries off the top of their head. They can't point to where the war is, they can't even differentiate where the states Colorado and Wyoming are.

Everyone has a choice of how to live their life. Just because someone was given a crappy set of cards to start out, doesn't mean we should coddle them and tell them everything is going to be okay, and give them whatever they want. Give them the high company positions because they experienced 'hardship'.

I can tell you I've never needed to go to the doctor for anything, because I've taken good care of my body. I've set aside money for when I actually need to go to the hospital. I don't need anyone's sympathy money to get back to work from a sprained ankle.




posted on Jun, 15 2009 @ 07:43 PM
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Well I say if access to healthcare in not a basic human right in this country, then why do my tax dollars fund grants and loans for doctors to attend school? Then again, why is it the governments business on how I live my life, eatting fatty foods, smoking, or participating in risky activities. I say you can't have it both ways.

Remember the question is basic healthcare. America waves her flag all over the world always citing human rights violations. We feel it's a violation if China kills a protestor, but if we allow a child to die just because they did not get the necessary antibiotics due to the cost of seeing a doctor and a prescription, does that make us just as bad? Does it put us in violation when our seniors can't afford to their necessary med's to live? Should we just leave people laying in the streets dying? We treat illegals in this country, we even fly people in from other countries to receive treatment here. Shouldn't the average Joe be able to go to the doctor to make sure the flu he has in not the swine flu?

Just my opinion.



posted on Jun, 15 2009 @ 08:28 PM
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reply to post by auntie_11k
 


Did you not read what part of President Obama's administration plan is?

This plan will give the power to the government to decide what treatments people will have, and more so the elder Americans. President Obama's plan includes taking $300 billion dollars from medicaid, and medicare, both which are only using the basics to help older Americans, as well as low income Americans.

Socialized medicine has been proven not to work... Why is it that so many are against "AFFORDABLE HEALTHCARE"?.....

As i said, people also need a place to live, so should we give a free house to everyone just because they need a place to live? or should we have AFFORDABLE HOUSING?....

BTW loans are always paid back... Doctors don't get free education, they ahve to work and pay for their education....



posted on Jun, 15 2009 @ 08:40 PM
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Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
Sorry that I have a 'real' life and don't spend 24 hours a day combing the internet.
................


I have a real life too, but i don't give red herrings when I am not aware of certain issues, or in this case decisions made by the current administration, and try to deride other members who point out what is going on.

As for the claim that the $313 million are just lying around please do not make me laugh. It is a known fact that medicare, medicaid, and even Social Security are almost without any funds, yet president Obama wants to claim he can "materialize' $313 billion dollars from medicaid, and medicare which are in need of more funds, instead of less?.....


[edit on 15-6-2009 by ElectricUniverse]



posted on Jun, 15 2009 @ 08:54 PM
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Originally posted by ElectricUniverse


Socialized medicine has been proven not to work... Why is it that so many are against "AFFORDABLE HEALTHCARE"?.....


Again with this. If single-payer healthcare doesn't work, then why is it currently working for Canada, most of Europe and dozens of other wealthy countries around the world?


Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

BTW loans are always paid back... Doctors don't get free education, they ahve to work and pay for their education....



There is a difference between grants and loans. Grants are not payed back.



posted on Jun, 15 2009 @ 09:12 PM
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Originally posted by drwizardphd
Again with this. If single-payer healthcare doesn't work, then why is it currently working for Canada, most of Europe and dozens of other wealthy countries around the world?


You are the one again with this, i gave a video about the Canadian Socialized healthcare, which is not working that well...

But of course people like you don't want to listen to the faults of Socialized healthcare...

The following are some of the faults of the Socialized healthcare system in Canada, and other countries...

The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
David Gratzer

Socialized medicine has meant rationed care and lack of innovation. Small wonder Canadians are looking to the market.

Mountain-bike enthusiast Suzanne Aucoin had to fight more than her Stage IV colon cancer. Her doctor suggested Erbitux—a proven cancer drug that targets cancer cells exclusively, unlike conventional chemotherapies that more crudely kill all fast-growing cells in the body—and Aucoin went to a clinic to begin treatment. But if Erbitux offered hope, Aucoin’s insurance didn’t: she received one inscrutable form letter after another, rejecting her claim for reimbursement. Yet another example of the callous hand of managed care, depriving someone of needed medical help, right? Guess again. Erbitux is standard treatment, covered by insurance companies—in the United States. Aucoin lives in Ontario, Canada.

www.city-journal.org...


More lies from Moore
BY SALLY PIPES

Friday, July 6th 2007, 4:00 AM

Be Our Guest
In "Sicko," Michael Moore uses a clip of my appearance earlier this year on "The O'Reilly Factor" to introduce a segment on the glories of Canadian health care.

Moore adores the Canadian system. I do not.

I am a new American, but I grew up and worked for many years in Canada. And I know the health care system of my native country much more intimately than does Moore. There's a good reason why my former countrymen with the money to do so either use the services of a booming industry of illegal private clinics, or come to America to take advantage of the health care that Moore denounces.

Government-run health care in Canada inevitably resolves into a dehumanizing system of triage, where the weak and the elderly are hastened to their fates by actuarial calculation. Having fought the Canadian health care bureaucracy on behalf of my ailing mother just two years ago - she was too old, and too sick, to merit the highest quality care in the government's eyes - I can honestly say that Moore's preferred health care system is something I wouldn't wish on him.

www.nydailynews.com...


Canadians Running to U.S. for Health Care
Canada, we are constantly being told by single-payer advocates, is a model social democracy with a medical delivery system that we should envy. Oddly, the people who make such claims never want to answer a question that Bill Steigerwald reiterates in a recent column:

If Canada’s national health care system is so dang wonderful, why are so many Canadians coming to America to pay for their own medical care?

And it’s not only pregnant women, like the one who recently had to drive to Montana to have her baby, who cross into the U.S. on a daily basis seeking health care. Thus, Steigerwald inquires further:

Why is the hip replacement center of Canada in Ohio–at the Cleveland Clinic, where 10% of its international patients are Canadians … Why is Brain and Spine Center in Buffalo serving about 10 border-crossing Canadians a week?

By way of answering his own questions, Steigerwald provides the following datum:

Number of Canadians on waiting lists for referrals to specialists or for medical services–875,000.

It would appear that Canadians with sufficient financial means are seeking medical treatment in a country where such waiting lists exist only in the the fond dreams of single-payer advocates.

And what about the Canadians who don’t have the money to come here for care? I guess they just pray that their illnesses don’t kill them before the vaunted Canadian system can fit them in.

www.healthcarebs.com...



By Hilary White

OTTAWA, November 14, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) – A new study has revealed that the Canadian government will spend $171.9-billion this year on health care, or $5,170 per person. At this rate health care spending is expected to grow faster than Canada’s economy, outpacing inflation and population growth, according to Glenda Yeates, President and CEO of the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI), which released the study yesterday.

Demographers have warned that the aging and slow growth of the Canadian population is a direct threat to the long-term prognosis of its raft of expensive, publicly funded social services, including its health care system.

www.lifesitenews.com...

Even Liberal MPs seek healthcare in the U.S., i wonder why if their Socialized system is so good...


Stronach went to U.S. for cancer treatment: report
Updated Fri. Sep. 14 2007 7:57 AM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Liberal MP Belinda Stronach, who is battling breast cancer, travelled to California last June for an operation that was recommended as part of her treatment, says a report.

Stronach's spokesman, Greg MacEachern, told the Toronto Star that the MP for Newmarket-Aurora had a "later-stage" operation in the U.S. after a Toronto doctor referred her.

"Belinda had one of her later-stage operations in California, after referral from her personal physicians in Toronto. Prior to this, Belinda had surgery and treatment in Toronto, and continues to receive follow-up treatment there," said MacEachern.

www.ctv.ca...




Originally posted by drwizardphd
There is a difference between grants and loans. Grants are not payed back.


Show me proof that doctors are getting grants to pay their education, and show me these grants come from American tax payers, and not from non-profit organizations where Americans FREELY give funds....


[edit on 15-6-2009 by ElectricUniverse]



posted on Jun, 16 2009 @ 01:58 AM
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Let's put this in numbers.

300Million people in the U.S. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there are 140.6Million employed people in the U.S.

Can 140.6 Million pay the medical bills for 300 Million?

China has 2.1 Billion people. India has 1.9 Billion people. Their medical care is sub-standard. Are us 140.6 Million people going to pay for medical care for those 4 Billion in those two countries alone? And just because we've invented most of those expensive technologies, just because they exist, the other folk have a right to it? I don't think so.

Go ahead, make it a constitutional right. Why not a U.N. constitutional right? Why not create some global tax, call it an 'energy tax', make all the nations tax their citizens, and use that to pay for healthcare? Why not rob us blind and make a socialist world?

The war against socialists would make the nuke invention pay off.



posted on Jun, 16 2009 @ 02:39 AM
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reply to post by JaxonRoberts
 





Is Access to Health Care a Basic Human Right?


Absolutely not! And often access is a curse, bad for your health, not to your advantage!

Be careful what you wish for. Many of my friends have shortened their lives using unlimited health care rather then helped themselves.

What's the first thing the Doctor does, he prescribes a list of drugs for your problem. Drugs have side effects, they are hard to dose correctly. Most people don't have the least idea how to manage drug dosages and rely on the doctor. The doctor only prescribes, he doesn't manage your drug dosages well. I/ve seen the result again and again. Patients end up back in the hospitals because of poor treatment management. Sad but true.

Diet, exercise and education would have been much better than medical management.

Result? Not good.

When more people are accessing and using the health care system because of Obamacare, the system will become more stressed and more mistakes will be made, poorer care will result!



posted on Jun, 16 2009 @ 03:17 AM
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fact is , we´ve got more then enough medicin to go around,

point is we´re just distobution it to the wrong people in wrong ammounts

for the wrong price.

secondly i belive i do recall that most "civil" countries has law´s that acturly require its citizents to act in case of emergency or accident ,

in other words you as a citizent are obligated to see to it that your fellow citizent is OK.

so arguing that is it a basic right is futile because its the law.



posted on Jun, 16 2009 @ 05:15 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


-----------------------------------
"Again ... health care is a service and a commodity.

No one has a 'right' to a service or a commodity.

It must be paid for."
-----------------------------------

yes, and EVERY taxpayer IS paying for this commodity now, even if they are laying in a bed suffering while being denied the care they need because of lack of insurance!!
they are paying through schips...
the are paying through medicare...
they are paying through medicaid...
they are paying through reasearch and developement...
their tax money is going to help keep hospitals afloat...
to train doctor's and nurses...
to insure the local, state, and federal employees...

THEY ARE PAYING FOR IT NOW!!
is it too much to ask that the government does something so that the ones footing the bill can find an affordable way to get the same care as they are providing every one else?
the money that they take out of our paychecks every week, that they take through the property taxes, ect.....is what makes it a right to those who are footing the bill!



posted on Jun, 16 2009 @ 08:16 PM
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The people who will pay the most and get the least benifit from OBAMACARE are the healthy young people, the working class. Goodness knows they are already burdoned with enough taxes already and will be burdened more in the near future as the Boomers retire. The youth of America should really be up in arms about this legislation as they will be the ones that will pay the most and get the least benifit.

If Obamacare goes through and further burdens the young worker the opportunity for improving ones future by investment, buying the house, etc. deminishes. Higher taxes means less opportunity to invest in your future cause the government is getting it all. This fits well in the Democratic agenda because the more poor people the more constituents to vote Democratic. But it's not fair to youth to put such a burden on them and take away their freedom!



posted on Jun, 16 2009 @ 10:21 PM
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This has turned into a debate on the Obama Administation's health care plan, which is not the question asked in my OP. The question is should every American have access to the same basic health care? Not the how. Not the who should regulate and administer it. Not the level of governmental control. If an American woman has breast cancer, should her life be decided on her socio-economic standing in society, or should she receive treatment regardless? Plain and simple!

[edit on 16-6-2009 by JaxonRoberts]



posted on Jun, 16 2009 @ 10:56 PM
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reply to post by JaxonRoberts
 





The question is should every American have access to the same basic health care?


What it comes down to is whether you will accept the same low quality health care for all Americans under Obamacare or should we continue to offer top notch health care to our citizens and let them choose their doctor?

Your lady with brest cancer will be waiting many months for her low quality surgery or get it off shore or in Mexico if she has the bucks!



posted on Jun, 16 2009 @ 11:35 PM
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Sorry, but we already take care of those that can't pay for their own medical care to some degree. I had an uncle that couldn't work and over 10 years the government got billed about 2 million dollars for medical costs. I always think too, aren't we the same spiritually? Isn't the soul separate from the body? If God put your soul into a body that doesn't function right, why shouldn't a person that is more capable take care of that person? If spiritually we're all equal, then why not? It's demeaning to not take care of others, it reduces us to beasts.

Look at babies born with spina bifida, however you spell that, they get taken in by the state free of charge, and they take care of them for however long. That is already happening now.

Your arguement is pretty messed up to be honest. Paying for car insurance and trimming your trees has no impact on your ability to sustain living.

Really, any person who was in a life or death situation would be asking for help so they can live. Doesn't matter if you're rich or poor. So if all humans react the same, then why is it ok for a poor person to die and a rich person to live? If the rich guy was poor, what would really change? He'd still be asking for help.

Many here don't or haven't had a life threatening disease. If your mom, dad or wife had a disease that they would die from, wouldn't you want them to get help even if you or they couldn't pay? Of course you would. That's where peoples' arguements are weak. You'd take care of your loved one, but someone you don't care about, dies, and you don't care. That is a flaw in human nature, and people have to fight it. Spiritually, that person you don'
t care about, is equal to your loved one. Just because you're an egoist and can't love everyone that doesn't mean you should be allowed to let your neighbor die.

[edit on 16-6-2009 by ghaleon12]



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 02:37 AM
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reply to post by ghaleon12
 





That's where peoples' arguements are weak. You'd take care of your loved one,


Actually, under Obamacare, if you really cared for your loved one, take for example the lady with breast cancer who happens to be your wife or mother, here is what you would do. You love her and would do whatever it takes to get the best care. You know your socialized medicine system doctors and system sucks. So you go to your rich uncle and other friends and borrow whatever it takes to send her off shore or to Mexico where the best care is available.

That's what they do in Canada where there is socialized medicine and that's what they do in England. They send their loved ones to the US where excellent healthcare is still available. What's a few thousand when it's a loved one?\

Get it?



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 05:20 AM
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Originally posted by plumranch
The people who will pay the most and get the least benifit from OBAMACARE are the healthy young people, the working class. Goodness knows they are already burdoned with enough taxes already and will be burdened more in the near future as the Boomers retire. The youth of America should really be up in arms about this legislation as they will be the ones that will pay the most and get the least benifit.

If Obamacare goes through and further burdens the young worker the opportunity for improving ones future by investment, buying the house, etc. deminishes. Higher taxes means less opportunity to invest in your future cause the government is getting it all. This fits well in the Democratic agenda because the more poor people the more constituents to vote Democratic. But it's not fair to youth to put such a burden on them and take away their freedom!


our government is worse than broke, it's trillions in the red, social security was raided years ago and is filled with iou's. I have to ask this, who do you think is gonna be taking care of these baby boomers when they become unable to work, need medical care, ect......
it's gonna be their kids...since the government doesn't have the money to do squat!!

I was watching a documentary about Africa and how the US and China are competing there for their natural resources..the africans like the US companies alot better according to it. Since well, when China opens a company there, they import a bunch of chinese to work in it, we will at least hire the locals...
now, think about it, it is china that is holding much of our debt, our homes are going into foreclosure, our businesses selling out.....so, well, it looks to me, that the time is ripe for the chinese to start doing the same thing here....start buying the businesses and the homes and well, exporting their people.....
doesn't seem to matter to me what obama does, our kid's futures don't look too bright!



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 08:41 AM
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The problem you are missing is this.

Life isn't fair.

Also, look at some of the nationalized health-care countries. While their citizens do get what they need, the prices they pay in taxes are tremendous. On top of that, those with no jobs get free health care also.

It is a pay to play world. It is funny that you mentioned teachers and farmers, because those are two professions I wish have more and better qualified people.

But you will be damned to think that I should help pay for someone to "live", just because they work a part-time job at McDonalds and spend the rest of their money on beer.

Those who want to succeed financially can. We all start on different roads, but I find it impossible to hear some people say they "can't".



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 01:48 PM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Sorry for the late reply, we had a terrible storm down here in Florida and I was without internet for a few days.


Regardless, you can browse the internet all day long and find 100 such sites that denounce Canadian healthcare, usually written by an American who's cherrypicking facts and examples to make his case.

Do yourself a favor and ask real Canadians what they think of their healthcare. You will find most will attest to quite the opposite of what you have posted.

Check out this link, it is completely neutral (wiki), and might open your eyes a bit.

Canadian and American health care systems compared

a few quotes from that source, in case you don't feel like checking it out for yourself (ignorance is never an excuse).




Through all entities in its public-private system, the U.S. spends more per capita than any other nation in the world,[11] but is the only wealthy industrialized country in the world that lacks some form of universal health care.[12]





A peer-reviewed comparison study of health care access in the two countries published in 2006 concluded that U.S. residents are one third less likely to have a regular medical doctor, one fourth more likely to have unmet health care needs, and are more than twice as likely to forgo needed medicines.[16] The study noted that access problems "were particularly dire for the US uninsured." Those who lack insurance in the U.S. were much less satisfied, less likely to have seen a doctor, and more likely to have been unable to receive desired care than both Canadians and insured Americans.[16]





Health care is one of the most expensive items of both nations’ budgets. In the United States, the various levels of government spend more per capita on health care than levels of government do in Canada. In 2004, Canada government-spending was $2,120 (in US dollars) per person on health care, while the United States government-spending $2,724.[11] However, U.S. government-spending covers less than half of all health care costs. Private spending for health care is also far greater in the U.S. than in Canada. In Canada, an average of $917 was spent annually by individuals or private insurance companies for health care, including dental, eye care, and drugs. In the U.S., this sum is $3,372.[11] In 2006, health care consumed 15.3% of U.S. annual GDP. In Canada, only 10% of GDP was spent on health care.[5]



You should also check out this link. You may find it a bit biased, as it was in fact written by a Canadian citizen and is therefore highly favorable of that system. However, keeping that in mind the article relates exclusively factual information.

Mythbusting Canadian Health Care

Food for thought:




Canada's health care system is "socialized medicine." False. In socialized medical systems, the doctors work directly for the state. In Canada (and many other countries with universal care), doctors run their own private practices, just like they do in the US. The only difference is that every doctor deals with one insurer, instead of 150. And that insurer is the provincial government, which is accountable to the legislature and the voters if the quality of coverage is allowed to slide. The proper term for this is "single-payer insurance." In talking to Americans about it, the better phrase is "Medicare for all."





You don't get to choose your own doctor. Scurrilously False. Somebody, somewhere, is getting paid a lot of money to make this kind of stuff up. The cons love to scare the kids with stories about the government picking your doctor for you, and you don't get a choice. Be afraid! Be very afraid! For the record: Canadians pick their own doctors, just like Americans do. And not only that: since it all pays the same, poor Canadians have exactly the same access to the country's top specialists that rich ones do.





Publicly-funded programs will inevitably lead to rationed health care, particularly for the elderly. False. And bogglingly so. The papers would have a field day if there was the barest hint that this might be true. One of the things that constantly amazes me here is how well-cared-for the elderly and disabled you see on the streets here are. No, these people are not being thrown out on the curb. In fact, they live longer, healthier, and more productive lives because they're getting a constant level of care that ensures small things get treated before they become big problems. The health care system also makes it easier on their caregiving adult children, who have more time to look in on Mom and take her on outings because they aren't working 60-hour weeks trying to hold onto a job that gives them insurance.



And finally, another article to glance over. Again written by a Canadian, but this one is a former Canadian who has lived in the U.S. for 17 years. You might find this interesting, and eye-opening to say the least.

Debunking Canadian health care myths



When it comes down to it, there really is no rational argument against reforming our healthcare system into a single-payer system. If you currently pay for health care now, you will end up paying less. Your taxes will go up, but you will no longer have to pay private insurance. If you don't currently pay for health care, you will see an increase in taxes (proportional to what you earn, of course), but you will be able to see the doctor when you need to.

Americans who would rather pay more to private insurance, while their neighbors die in squalor, don't belong in a civilized society. The very essence of society is that we lend a helping hand to those who need it, when they need it. I am by no means poor, nor did I grow up in a poor family. We have always had very good private insurance, and I have never had to worry about whether or not I will be covered when I need to see the doctor. However, the very fact that there are American citizens who do have to worry about that sort of thing sickens me. I would be more than happy to pay 10% higher taxes, and no longer pay the insurance companies, to guarantee my neighbors health care in their time of need. That is the American Way.

Pay less money, save more lives. How could anyone possibly have a problem with that?



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 02:08 PM
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doesn't seem to matter to me what obama does, our kid's futures don't look too bright!
reply to post by dawnstar
 


Starred.
But in view of what you said isn't it obvious that Obama is making things exponentially worse. Obama isn't stupid, he realizes what he is doing and that it will make life worse in the long run for Americans. But as I mentioned, more poor people in despirate conditions = more votes for the democrats. For Obama that means power and that is all that man cares about.

I'm tempted to agree entirely with you but. America is just too well positioned generally in terms of economics, social factors, geography, and resources. We will continue to be the world leader in most ways well into the future and after we are gone. Not that we won't have challenges along to way. The Obama's, Pelosi's and Reids can try to bring us down but they'll not succeed.



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 02:09 PM
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Ever hear the expression "Take the best, leave the rest."

We have the opportunity to create the best single payer universal health care system in the world thanks to the work of all the other 1st world industrialized countries that have paved the way!

We have many smart people here in the States and I am positive this can happen if we can shake off this me, me, me selfishness so prevalent over the past 30 years.

Trouble is we will need campaign finance reform to do it. Public financing of elections. No corporate money allowed! These politicians know the only way to get elected is to pander to the corporatocracy! Mussolini called it fascism...the merging of big business and government. That is our predicament.





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