Convince me, Please., page 3

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reply posted on 11-6-2009 @ 05:02 AM by MrGummyPants

Your a rare kind blind.face.
The kind i like to find here on ATS.
You ask why i search for a god if i believe there is none?
Why because i wish their was. I wish their was in the same sense i wish people could fly, only difference is there isnt people around me saying that people can indeed fly.
When you wish something is true, yet see no way for it to be so, the definite beleif that others have for it is fascinating. Always making me wonder why they believed it and i didnt.
The world would be such a simplier place with a God around but with no reason for one it seems so unlikely. Yet, here we are. Millions of us around the world say there is and it intrigues me.

At times i pity what i would see as blind ignorance, but at other times...i envy you all.

reply posted on 11-6-2009 @ 05:03 AM by blind.face

reply to post by MrGummyPants

I respect the fact that you are looking for the truth, that is healthy if you believe in God or not.

I'm sad to say, as I said in my previous post, I don't have any answers for you. I think I started truly believing in God when I started realizing that I didn't have to have fact to have faith- and after I stopped trying to read too much into it. The 'fact' is, if there is or isn't a God when I die.. I'm set. I tried to live a good life, so maybe I get a spot in heaven. If there isn't one.. well, I enjoyed being who I am, and the time I have spent with those that I call friends and family. win win.

I really do hope you find your answer here.

reply posted on 11-6-2009 @ 05:10 AM by TurkeyBurgers

reply to post by MrGummyPants

Brother let me tell you! I almost wish I could go back myself and take the Blue Pill because the idea of an afterlife sounds so AWESOME to me!

My imagination sees an afterlife as being LIMITLESS! Like The Matrix where you could do anything you ever wanted. Basically I image a afterlife where you are essentially a God in your own Universe and could share your Universe with other dead people/gods.

Then the Red pill sets in and I am an Atheist again and have nothing to look forward to but being tuned off like a computer and the big rot back to worm food.

Reality sucks.

reply posted on 11-6-2009 @ 05:12 AM by MrGummyPants

I've always thought about that tempting idea.
Believing incase there is, and not worrying if there isn't.
But to be honest, would God accept you into heaven knowing that you took his way as a failsafe? On the same grounds; why would god accept anyone into heaven on their death bed, as the only reason they decide to believe suddenly then and there is due to the fear of their impending death. That is not accepting god, that's taking the better option in uncertainty of the outcome.

All i can say is that if i was god, i would not let people in the gates of heaven because they saw it as the safest option.

Thanks for your input mate.
Apprieated.

reply posted on 11-6-2009 @ 05:14 AM by MrGummyPants

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

One of the Main ploys of religeon there Turkey.
People fear the un-satifying outcome of their lives.
Can this really be all there is?
Sure, why the hell not!

reply posted on 11-6-2009 @ 05:16 AM by blind.face

reply to post by MrGummyPants

I like the way you think! It's healthy to question.

The God that I believe in is not someone to throw you out- even if you never believe in him. I wouldn't spend any time praying to a God like that.. not someone I would associate with.

Always remember what 'belief' means. It has nothing to do with fact. It is my 'belief' that God exist.. is the same as.. it's my opinion that God exists. As there is no proof.

reply posted on 11-6-2009 @ 05:22 AM by iulslion

reply to post by MrGummyPants

All I have to say to you is this. If you can prove to me, without a shadow of a doubt, that you exist, then I will answer your question.

reply posted on 11-6-2009 @ 05:23 AM by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

And you argue incorrectly. I explained it to you with examples and I showed you the definitions as defined by miriam-webster *aka Webster's Dictionary*. And all you can answer back to me is, "IT JUST IS!!!!!" which pretty much sums up your arguments thus far......
By all means believe what you wish of course. Just don't try to pretend it is fact. If you want to limit your thinking for the purpose of discreditation that is your problem when it makes you appear to be a unrealistic fanatic to the moderate observer. You could be correct in your belief that there is no "god" or whatever we would call a "god" in existance and that life the universe and everything happened by pure chance, but that is really despite yourself as you have simply clung to an idea and can see no possible counter argument due to the limitations you place on your thinking and the possible meanings of human concepts.

Good day sir or ma'am, unless of course you have anything new to say or wish to address my arguments with some sort of coherent counter-argument that does not say little more than "it just is".

reply posted on 11-6-2009 @ 05:28 AM by iulslion

Originally posted by Epsillion70
All I can say from my own experience is: Do not believe anything;
You see
You hear
You smell
You touch
You taste

only believe as true; what you feel and sense in ones own experience of every moment in time and space

[edit on 11-6-2009 by Epsillion70]

I have bad news for you friend. A few thousand years ago, around the time when humans became intelligent, they realized that there are things which lie outside the scope of our 5 senses. And that in fact, there may be some more to reality than meets the eye.
In fact, this is now scientific.

Wow what dya know?????

reply posted on 11-6-2009 @ 05:32 AM by fizzy1

Originally posted by MrGummyPants
reply to post by fizzy1

Fizzy.

Thats quite a Dilemma you went through there with the wife. I don't know much about Wicca but i get your point.
However the point i argue is this: Everything you see around you obeys a physical Law. The waves of the vast oceans are but molecules or water sways to the effects of the Moon. The ground below me is but a compound of other vairous elements that obey particle law, binding together where bonds can be made. Thes things can be explained physically, these can be used as proof in discussions on other topics because they physically exist. And if we were discussing how a rock forms you could show me in physicality and i would believe you.
But faith?
This one thing floats outside of all Law? I cannot understand it because i do not have it. How do i get it then? To dismiss all knowledge? I am meant to simply give up everything i know for a blind belief?
Please mate, i would love for a God to exist. Life would be so much simplier but as of now, it doesn't seem so. Just because I question the world i don't get to have faith? Why doesnt god reach out to me like he has you?
I want god!
Does he not want me?

My friend your have taken the first steps on a spiritual journey that i do not know where it will lead you. I again hope you find what you seek soon but i know this., if you live long enough through this journey you will find answers. They may not be the answers you expect but you will find them. People who are lost in the dark and never try to find the light wil remain lost. Your looking and you will find. I am going to get blasted by christians for this since i should be trying to preach the word to you but i think god is going to find you in his was and in his time, howver try putting aside your thoughts of the physical world and how it functions according to physical laws. Remember the belief in a supreme being is the belief that he exists above the physical realm and the laws that govern it. You wont find the answers you seek looking aorund you. Spirituality and faith in a supreme being is internal. God doesnt seek to open your mind but rather your heart. Your mind is open already its the other part of you that needs to know. You will never find god in your mind because everyone who loves and beleives in him does so with their heart. Quiet your mind. Stop thinking and just try to feel. I ask you this. In your journey try and think of the people you love. Why do you love them. What is this feeling called love. What physical laws govern it and how can you use science to explain and control it. You love you mom or dad or spouse or girlfriend boyfriend or whomeever. But why? You feel this feeling for them but for what reason and purpose and why not everyone. Why isnt that feeling universal to everyone and from everyone to you. Its a mystery. An unknown in the equation that we dont have an answer to yet. Science can explain the chemical processes but that is a far cry from truly explaining why. It explains maybe some of the how but not why. There in the depths of your emotions of your mind and i dont mean your brain i mean your mind. the inner mind and spirit which is connected that god lies. Not in the outward manifestation of his world.

Read! Read alot about different faiths and beliefs. Branch out from your traditional theology that you were raised on. Look into taoism. It can offer insite into the spiritual journey to find the inner man. You my friend are much more than the sum of your parts and much more than atoms arrnaged by nature. There is a inner part of you that allows inteligence and sentience. To know you exist and ponder that existence. There is a part of you that you have yet to find because it is inside not outside. Learn as much as you can and along the road you will meet that which you seek.
Peace be to you!

reply posted on 11-6-2009 @ 05:33 AM by TurkeyBurgers

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

And you argue incorrectly. I explained it to you with examples and I showed you the definitions as defined by miriam-webster *aka Webster's Dictionary*. And all you can answer back to me is, "IT JUST IS!!!!!" which pretty much sums up your arguments thus far......
By all means believe what you wish of course. Just don't try to pretend it is fact. If you want to limit your thinking for the purpose of discreditation that is your problem when it makes you appear to be a unrealistic fanatic to the moderate observer. You could be correct in your belief that there is no "god" or whatever we would call a "god" in existance and that life the universe and everything happened by pure chance, but that is really despite yourself as you have simply clung to an idea and can see no possible counter argument due to the limitations you place on your thinking and the possible meanings of human concepts.

Good day sir or ma'am, unless of course you have anything new to say or wish to address my arguments with some sort of coherent counter-argument that does not say little more than "it just is".

Ok I will bite. First let me say Watcher I hope we can keep the argument of Omnipotence separate from my Atheist title. I was hoping to argue more about Knowledge+Power than what I believe. I really do not want to bring your religious beliefs or lack thereof into the discussion either if that is cool.

Let us just keep the debate about the limits of what a God or Imagined God is capable or Not capable of.

To say that a Being Knows EVERYTHING is to say that a being Knows everything about power. A being would know any laws that would preclude it from doing anything and would know a way AROUND any laws that precluded it from doing anything. It would know INFINITY and infinity has no boundaries that I am aware of.

Do you agree to this?

reply posted on 11-6-2009 @ 05:35 AM by MrGummyPants

reply to post by iulslion

Kool point.
Stepping towards the realms of reality, dimensions and existence.
When these questions get asked of me i always remember a single philosophical quote by a man who's name eludes me at this second. (...*blank* urgo sun?)

"I think, therefore I am"

Meaning, if i can conceive but a thought, constrew a concept in my head, then i must exist in someway. Even if i was dreaming, the fact i think is evidence for my existence.
In many ways, you can never prove your own existence to others.

Good point mate, well taken.

reply posted on 11-6-2009 @ 05:37 AM by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

reply to post by MrGummyPants

Cogito ergo sum.
Descartes.

reply posted on 11-6-2009 @ 05:37 AM by MrGummyPants

Please people, calm it down.
This is drifting off-topic and into the bottomless void of anger at other's belief.
I wish opinions to be expressed and noted here, with the few exceptions of the odd childish point raised ive seen on earlier pages.
Please do not use this forum to fight.
Instead, discuss. In a civilised manor.
Thankyou.

reply posted on 11-6-2009 @ 05:38 AM by MrGummyPants

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

Oh thankyou sir.
I could say it in my head but not in words.

Great Saying isnt it.
There's been some wise people in this world.

reply posted on 11-6-2009 @ 05:43 AM by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

Considering that is the standpoint you are arguing from and only seeking to reinforce. It isn't that you said "I AM A ATHEIST! AHHAHA!". And I have not stated mine.
And no, knowledge how to do something and actual ability to do something are not the same thing. To use another example from fiction The Matrix's characters of The Architect *omnipotence* and The Oracle *omniscience*.

reply posted on 11-6-2009 @ 05:47 AM by MrGummyPants

Despite my disliking of your spiteful debate, i do like the point about the Matrix people.
Never really realised the spiritual relevance of the Matrix

reply posted on 11-6-2009 @ 05:51 AM by TurkeyBurgers

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

Considering that is the standpoint you are arguing from and only seeking to reinforce. It isn't that you said "I AM A ATHEIST! AHHAHA!". And I have not stated mine.
And no, knowledge how to do something and actual ability to do something are not the same thing. To use another example from fiction The Matrix's characters of The Architect *omnipotence* and The Oracle *omniscience*.

Ok we have to determine what you consider to be "infinite" knowledge.

If you believe like you stated that the definition of Omniscience is INFINITE knowledge what would be a limiting factor?

You would know EVERYTHING.

You would know what it would take to manipulate things.
You would know what it would take for YOU to manipulate those things.
You would know how to GO ABOUT manipulating those things.
You would understand the definition of limitless power (Omnipotence)
You would know what it would take to have limitless power.
You would know a way to go about ACHIEVING limitless power.

Agree or disagree?

reply posted on 11-6-2009 @ 07:22 AM by iulslion

reply to post by MrGummyPants

Exactly. Someone who sees the light. From this point of view, it is easy to take it to the next level.

I think, therefore I am.
I am therefore I come into being.
If I came into being, I came from somewhere.
Unless I am god, there must have been something before I was here.

Call it what you want, the singularity, the infinitely dense supermass, the one, the universal "I", or God.

Funny that when you translate the name of God (of the bible) it means "I AM"

[edit on 11-6-2009 by iulslion]

reply posted on 11-6-2009 @ 07:27 AM by debz325

You poor soul.People don't choose GOD,GOD chooses people but I shall pray for you and maybe because you asked such a question GOD might be tuggen at ya.Wait and Stay open.Faith is not something you can find on a intellectual level.