Originally posted by Dark Ghost
This is not proof of God, but questions science cannot really explain properly:

- How is water created and where did it originate?
- How is gas created and where did it originate?
- Where did the materials/molecules/chemicals/whatever needed to make the above come from?
- How did the very first piece of matter come to be? The component of this very first piece of matter was created with which materials?
- How does the brain gather and process information EXACTLY?
- How do electric impulses translate into images?
-How can anything be made from nothingness if nothingness has nothing?

Sorry, this made me laugh. Although the jist of what your getting it is valid, you do not ask the right questions.

Your first question about water? Ive taken chemistry for a couple years and i'll just tell you that basically if you combust (react with Oxyen) Hydrogen Gas you create "water" is a gas form. You'd call this steam, though chemically speaking it is Water. Cool it down and Oh look, liquid water. Which is an easily achieved task when in the conditions of a changing planet earth in the early stages of its life. Where these elements came from? Well Hydrogen is the most abundent element in the universe. Oxygen is present but not as common, its often presumed that its presence in the elements that formed earth is what made life so abundent. Just as how other planets form of other elements, we got oxygen.

Second question, gosh where do i start. Gas? What type of gas? Gas is but a physical state of ANY molecule. Solid >>> Liquid >>>> Gas >>>>Plasma. So i won't start on this question due to it being an half-complete question...what gas?

Third question? Well the "elements" that create the above came from "space" a long long long time ago before they "bunched up" and formed planets and stars. But i guess your just respond with "What about before then?" and well thats a good question and one we do not fully understand yet, closest were getn is the Big Bang Theory and as the name suggests, its just a theory.

4th: Well "mass" is theoretically formed through Higg's Boson, a particle which is planned to be discovered through the LHC. Matter however is a tricky subject, because it includes everything. As sub-particles like the higg's bosons are "Matter". This is one of the question that does indeed need answering. With "matter" i'd just like to point out that "God" falls into the catergory of matter, so the old question of what made God pops up again. If something exsists then it is made of matter, else does not. Mass is not relevant for Matter, as Photons which are pure energy are must be made of Matter of some variety. So if anyone wishes to ask where did Matter come from, be prepared to answer it yourself.

5th: How does the brain process and gather infomation?
Im afraid this is 99.99% understood. There are things that we don't understand about the brain but this...is not one. We understand how the brain communicates to the senses. Chemical messages and nerves.
Sorry to be so vague with this one but i promise you this is a HUGE question to answer and i'm afraid i'd probably stuff up trying. So for now i'll just let you off by saying "yeah I don't know".

6th - This one i'm not sure if your mixing terms or you mean how the light spectrum works, like how we do actually "see" an image. This is also a complicated question, look up Electromagnetic radiation and the light spectrum. It'll explain how light waves of various frequencies and amplitudes produce different colours and thus different colours. Or if you wana delve deeper, look into Electron sub-orbitals and how d-orbitals of different numbers can cause light effects.
Or maybe you mean how do "we" process this light? well thats what an eye does, it detects radiation from the visible light spectrum. I just suggest you read up on this.

Lastly: Yes, a true unknown question. To me, it makes more sense for time to be infinite.

-Thanks


[edit on 11-6-2009 by MrGummyPants]

Omniscient and Omnipotency (sorry about spelling) never really worked.

If god is all knowing then he must know the fates of every living being before they are conceived, before they are given a chance. He must know sinners are to be damned to hell for enternity before they even exsist, he MUST otherwise is not to be Omniscient. If this is true then life is in fact preset, no choice can be made in the long run for we all have a set place for us after death that god has long know for us.
On the otherhand, if their is choice. If God and all his omnipotency can in fact us the choice to decide for ourselves in life. Decide our own fate. Then he is in fact NOT Omniscient for to be he WOULD have to know and in turn we'd have no choice.

In short, you cannot have the power to change the world and the power to know the outcome. Otherwise your in fact not changing a damn thing.

Heya mate.
Thanks for the input. I live in a beautiful part of the world, every morning i look out at the mountains and they are truly brilliant. But never do i go "Wow! noway did that just happen" because I know..how it can happen. It doesnt require a creator.
I never got how people say that its ignorant to look at the world and not see the work of some creator. It simply doesn't need it, you say "wow its just too special, beautiful and incredible to be just chance". What exaclty have you got to compare this world to that you can look at it and go "No, THIS world has to of had a creator?".
To be honest, theres plenty wrong in the world that suggest faulty planning and imperfection. Blindness for example. Creators of the omnipotent kind cannot leave room for error anyway...

Everything on the earth required some kind of creator to create it. Not necessarily god but a creator in some sense. It didnt just poof into existence. If that were so i would like to poof a millions dollars into my account right now. Everything you see was made by something. the tree from its seed, the animals from their parents, the mountains from the earth ect ect and so on. Science can even show you that. What your thinking of is the beggining very very begining of creation. Did that require a creator. Well if you follow suit that life doesnt just poof into existence as we know it today and you back step the whole process to a begining then it logically follows suit that even that had to have a creator or else why doesnt life just poof itself into existence without the need of something creating it. Babies being born, that house you live in, food you eat etc etc. Life is ongoing and requires the act of "Pro" creation. Still creation there. And as far as no room for error regarding blindness and everything else i assume you mean to be wrong with this world, who said its in error? If there is a god then how could you claim to know the mind of such a being, and that it is not part of design that some people have afflictions that others dont. I dont see grand design as an attempt at perfection but according to christian teaching the world was perfect as god created it. Man screwed it up. Through sin was such things brought into the world.

To Fizzy,

Im sorry that you feel i only wish to provoke Christians in a debate. This was not the aim of this post, i merely wished for SOME proof. I realise i single out christians here but only because it is the religeon that surrounds me, the one i grew up with. I have smaller knowledge of other religeons and would love to hear from people of those beleifs too.
You seem like a very knowledgable person and the perfect person for me to chat to about this topic, however this talk of Faith does nothing to me. It will forever seem like Wild belief, a system created to cover a route to the exsistence of god that science cannot possibly follow. So although i value anyone's faith as an important part of themselves, i fail to accept it towards proof. I understand there will always be proof of god unexplainable by physical means but it is not that which i shall in turn search for.
If physical proof is all i can gain for knowledge then it is what i shall get.
Religeon is not above physical proof.

- My apologies friend.

I have no answer for you. I was raised as a Catholic in parocial schools. My belief died when I knew more about the Bible in High School than the priests that were teaching me and they told me I would get straight "A's" if I would quit asking questions. My experience of life has shown me there is a lot going on that most people are not aware of. I was once given a demon by a man who made money by taking them back. The demons were free but removing them cost money. I got rid of it by myself and the next day the man was freaked by how I had done it without me telling him. If there is a GOD I do not know it but there ARE beings that are different from us that usually we do not see. I do not see how this might help you. It sure hasn't helped me.

Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
I have no answer for you. I was raised as a Catholic in parocial schools. My belief died when I knew more about the Bible in High School than the priests that were teaching me and they told me I would get straight "A's" if I would quit asking questions. My experience of life has shown me there is a lot going on that most people are not aware of. I was once given a demon by a man who made money by taking them back. The demons were free but removing them cost money. I got rid of it by myself and the next day the man was freaked by how I had done it without me telling him. If there is a GOD I do not know it but there ARE beings that are different from us that usually we do not see. I do not see how this might help you. It sure hasn't helped me.

A demon you say?
Fascinating.
I imagine that was a scary experience for you. You use the term "demon" loosely or is that indeed what they are called?
How did you go about removing it? I'd of thought that in your absence of a god, the need for any sort of priest would be uneeded, so how'd you do it?
Guess somethings you gotta do yourself huh?

Since you are interested in science, I'm sure you can see the order of things. Molecules, atoms, quarks etc. How did this order get there? It is the same with all things if you really look at them. There is an order in all things. How did everything become so ordered and organized? You want proof of God...look around you. No one can prove to you there is a God, but you can prove it to yourself.

this thing called god is more vast than one can imagine. Something along the lines of multiplying evey atom in existence by every possibility, ... times infinity. every thought ever thought, ... word ever uttered, deed ever done. god is me and you ...... and the space in between us.

if the universe is holographic, and everything hinges on perception. what perceived the universe itself ???

god was once described as the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. first and last.

heres an excerpt from the holographic theory;

: In addition to its phantomlike nature, such a universe would possess other rather startling features. If the apparent separateness of subatomic particles is illusory, it means that at a deeper level of reality all things in the universe are infinitely interconnected. The electrons in a carbon atom in the human brain are connected to the subatomic particles that comprise every salmon that swims, every heart that beats, and every star that shimmers in the sky. Everything interpenetrates everything, and although human nature may seek to categorize and pigeonhole and subdivide, the various phenomena of the universe, all apportionments are of necessity artificial and all of nature is ultimately a seamless web.

the superhologram is the matrix that has given birth to everything in our universe, at the very least it contains every subatomic particle that has been or will be -- every configuration of matter and energy that is possible, from snowflakes to quasars, from blue whales to gamma rays. It must be seen as a sort of cosmic storehouse of "All That Is."

Order.

Point one to You sir.
That is indeed something i havent fully thought an answer for.
The Order in the natural world is astounding. Not definite evidence, things aquire certain traits because they best suit them. All the planets can be considered round or ellipse but they still vary in size and can be ordered accordingly. And in accordance to their size similiar traits will appear among them, this is not incredible but mere requirence.
Different Elements will form certain sizes, different positions to there related sun's cause different sizes. Their order is all relative to everything else.
However you are right, on a sub-atomics scale the presence of an order is amazing, but our lack of understanding of it does not prove evidence.
These discussions will always fall back on the arguementative point "Disproving some-one else does not make you correct".

Though, you have given me a very valid point to consider.
Thankyou sir.

Valid Point Turkey Burger.

But answer me this:

If God knows the definite end to the Universe, Can he change it?

I like you was raised around christianity. I was episcopal and went to church on sundays with my mom. I went through the motions and did the stand,sing sit kneel pray stand sing etc ect thing. I learned alot about the religion i was exposed to and the idea of god intrigued me. Never did i FEEL him. Not for a very very long time. I went to speak to the father who presided over the church about this. I wanted to know why god didnt make himself known to me. All he was, was an idea in my head and thats all. He gave me the speech about ask and it shall be given etc ect as i told you. i took it and went with it. Still nothing. I went through a time in my life when i searched for god. I was confronted with him one day in the living room of my house.
I was sitting alone in my apartment watching tv with remote in hand. Not thinking of god or anything at all religious. All of a sudden i was overtaken with this sense of something being in the room with me. Not like a ghost or anything but like the whole room was filled with this presence. I dont know what else to call it. The second sensationo i had was being overwhelmed with emotion. Completely overwhelmed with the feeling of guilt and feeling sick like i was suddenly aware of everything i had ever done wrong. It was like being in the presence of something so pure and so perfect that i was immediately aware of just how bad i had been and i felt ashamed. Very very ashamed. Now if one thing i hope you have gotten from my talking here in all this is that i am not a zealot or a overly emotional person who comes to tears at the drop of a hat. I am very intelligent and i like you look for explanations scientifically where there are phenomena. I dont rush to some other worldly view to explain that which has most likely a real plausible explanation.
However that being said, i did experience this. I was so over come with emotion and feeling of guilt and sadness. Like i was not worthy of what was in my presence that hit my knees. I did not do this with forethought. It just happened. before i knew it i was on my knees in front of my couch and my face was buried in the couch and i was begging seriously begging to be forgiven. I wept so hard like i have never in my life wept. It burst out of me hard. I cried harder than i can ever remember in my life. It was powerful very powerful experience, and i knew i was touched by god that day. That moment i confessed my sins and i accepted jesus as my saviour. Why? because i felt him in my heart that day that moment. for me there was no other explanation and i wanted none. I had my explanation. I went forth that day born again. Born anew. Now let me say this i am not the born again bible thumping preachy person you think of when you hear born again. I did go overboard at the beggining but alot do. its called the mountain top experience and it lifts you and makes you soar spiritually. It doesnt last. For me being in the presence of the holy spirit does this to a person. I read the bible alot then and so the disciples say it is so when your in the presence of the spirit.
At any rate my life has flucuated between a service to god and living by my own wims since then. I have gone astray my friend. I am currently on the road back. However once you accept jesus in your heart not your head then your christian. We as his sheep may go astray but it is never to late to come back forgiveness is not a one time deal.
So i pray you find god. I pray you feel him in your heart. It sounds like you want to. You are just looking down the wrong road. Belief in a being that cannot be experienced by your 5 senses requires faith. Not blind faith but faith nonetheless. But if you dont feel him you cannot believe. No matter what people offer up as proof. It will always reside in your mind as a fairy tale.