Convince me, Please., page 6
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reply posted on 12-6-2009 @ 03:19 PM by iulslion
reply to post by dominicus


Bravo, the experience of God is all that can convince yourself. But for those who don't know, everyday experience is through God. You dont need to see someone walking on water to prove it.

When you can truly see the complexity in any form of life, weather plant or animal; or the wierd and wonderful ways of chemistry or physics, even the language of God himself - mathematics. It quickly becomes clear, that this is from a higher source - we did not create math, we discovered it.

Shame to those who claim to understand such things, true understanding is out of the reach of mere humans. We can only attempt to imitate the greatness that existed here long before we where a thought in the mind of God.


reply posted on 12-6-2009 @ 03:29 PM by Quantum_Squirrel
Problems with God and Why God must lie outside time.

Time is a part of the physical universe, inseparable from space and matter. Any Designer/Creator must therfore transcend time, as well as space and matter.

That is god Must lie outside time if God is to be the designer and creater of time.

If it is possible that time had a begining (big bang) its also possible it could have an end. Most theologians would Not want God to come into being at the beginning of time and cease to exist if it should come to an end.

And this is were Problems start to arise with 'God'

The difficulty of a timeless designer, however, is in making sense of the concept of design. what does it mean to design something 'timelessly'?
In human experience, a designer is a being who thinks through in advance the consequences of certain choices, and then selects one. But 'thinking' and 'in advance' are inescapably temporal descriptions.

Even if some more abstract notion of 'timeless design' is accepted, a further difficulty arises with the specifics of the designers choice.

Could the designer have choosen a different universe, or chosen not to make a universe at all? .... if the answer is no, then God had no alternative but to create this universe and plays no role at all in the explanation - and so does not merit the title 'designer'.
Nature is reduced to a subset of the divine being rather than a creation of this being. in fact this scenario might as well do away with a designer altogether.

Christians, however, traditionally believe something quite different.

They believe that God created this particular universe as a free act: that is, God was free to not make this universe. but this comes with its own set of difficulties, because we can ask why it was that God chose to make this universe, as opposed to a lifeless one, or one with maximum suffering. If the reply is 'it's unfathomable' then the chain of explanation peters out. If the answer is that the choice was blind then again the element of design is lost, because if the selection was purely whimsical, then the universe is reduced to a divine plaything.

But if the answer is that the decision to make the universe was a profound and considered one which proceeded from God's nature, then one is prompted to ask about the source of this nature. In other words who designed the designer? making God not god/designer/creator after all..


And this is the problem of God , and if God/designer/creator exists why he/she/other MUST lie outside of time ...


reply posted on 12-6-2009 @ 04:39 PM by MrGummyPants
Originally posted by Dark Ghost

Sorry, this made me laugh. Although the jist of what your getting it is valid, you do not ask the right questions.


Thanks for being so kind as not to make fun of my questions as I am aware certain individuals would be very knowledgeable about science disciplines like chemistry and physics. And I agree that I was not asking the right questions, but glad you understood what I was getting at.

The problem I find with your answers is they are "self-evident" type answers. Yes, water is created by combusting hydrogen gas and oxygen (H20). But this does not answer where hydrogen or oxygen come from.

I'll give you an example of what I'm trying to say:

We know that Grey (Gray) is made from mixing black and white. I'm sure you can explain the chemical properties of both black and white and how they mix to make grey. But where does black come from and where does white come from?

[edit on 12/6/2009 by Dark Ghost]


Hello again there mate.

Yes i udnerstand you beg the question "Yes, But where did THEY come from?" ad i suggest you read some of the post above and below your last.
It is just as plausible that the quarks and sub particles that make up those basic elements are in fact infinite, whether they are constant or go through a natural cycle of death and rebirth as another ATS person well suggested, it is very plausible that these tiny building blocks simply have always been and always will be.


reply posted on 12-6-2009 @ 04:43 PM by MrGummyPants
Originally posted by jackflap
reply to post by MrGummyPants



I'll tell you how you can know for sure. You will believe. But believing isn't enough unfortunately.

James 2:19 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Demons know full well and we know what they are all about.


[edit on 12-6-2009 by jackflap]


Not to be disrepectful but i will not take Bible quotes as references, just as i will not take quotes from the Matrix as references. Both have some neat ideas but both essentially are a story written by another human being.
I'm not allowed to use wikipedia as a reference in my studies, a source which i find just as reliable as the bible. (Not to say that that fact alone makes me dismiss any chance of beleif), the bible is just untrustworthy and distorted.


reply posted on 12-6-2009 @ 04:49 PM by gilgamesh12
well anyone who has read through sitchins books and other similar authors can tell u that god in the bible is really many different things, nibiru , enlil, enki, sometimes marduk. The bible is a giant story book that covers many many years. There are storys that parallel the bible exactly that were written thousands of years before. Noah is Zuisadra, Enoch is really enmeduranki, Cain and Abel are really Enten and Emesh. Sometimes in the bible when they speak of god as making mountains shake and having lightning crash down, or his brightness in the sky blah blah, thats when the bible is talking about nibiru. When god allowed noah to survive, that was really enki providing him with information that nibiru was coming and gonna cause a flood. Usually the more stern acting god in the bible is enlil and the helping loving god is enki. Sometimes enki is portrayed as the devil as well. UMMM also when they talk of THE END OF DAYS, that happens quit often, the end of days is the end of zodiac ages. Back in the day different people would rule during different ages and during the changes all "hell" lol would brake loose. Also the Day of the Lord is really when nibiru comes back around every 3600 years. Each zodiac is 2680 i think it is or maybe 2860 years i forget, but 2860 and 3600 divided by each other are the golden ratio. The maltese cross is one of the first symbols for the planet nibiru, thats why it was around thousands of years before christ. Thats the real meaning of the cross. So god is nibiru and lots of other spacemen that looked just like us. So it is just all science really, the flying planet made earth and spacemen help us along with evolution. The biggest question is who made those spacemen or do they have a god? sorry for rambling on just trying to squeeze in info for those who dont like to read books all the way through


reply posted on 12-6-2009 @ 04:49 PM by MrGummyPants
Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel
Problems with God and Why God must lie outside time.

Time is a part of the physical universe, inseparable from space and matter. Any Designer/Creator must therfore transcend time, as well as space and matter.

That is god Must lie outside time if God is to be the designer and creater of time.

If it is possible that time had a begining (big bang) its also possible it could have an end. Most theologians would Not want God to come into being at the beginning of time and cease to exist if it should come to an end.

And this is were Problems start to arise with 'God'

The difficulty of a timeless designer, however, is in making sense of the concept of design. what does it mean to design something 'timelessly'?
In human experience, a designer is a being who thinks through in advance the consequences of certain choices, and then selects one. But 'thinking' and 'in advance' are inescapably temporal descriptions.

Even if some more abstract notion of 'timeless design' is accepted, a further difficulty arises with the specifics of the designers choice.

Could the designer have choosen a different universe, or chosen not to make a universe at all? .... if the answer is no, then God had no alternative but to create this universe and plays no role at all in the explanation - and so does not merit the title 'designer'.
Nature is reduced to a subset of the divine being rather than a creation of this being. in fact this scenario might as well do away with a designer altogether.

Christians, however, traditionally believe something quite different.

They believe that God created this particular universe as a free act: that is, God was free to not make this universe. but this comes with its own set of difficulties, because we can ask why it was that God chose to make this universe, as opposed to a lifeless one, or one with maximum suffering. If the reply is 'it's unfathomable' then the chain of explanation peters out. If the answer is that the choice was blind then again the element of design is lost, because if the selection was purely whimsical, then the universe is reduced to a divine plaything.

But if the answer is that the decision to make the universe was a profound and considered one which proceeded from God's nature, then one is prompted to ask about the source of this nature. In other words who designed the designer? making God not god/designer/creator after all..


And this is the problem of God , and if God/designer/creator exists why he/she/other MUST lie outside of time ...



A well conceived post.
Though you jump to a conclusion at the start of your post.
In that "something" (you say a god) but must live outside of time.
Why?
Time being a physical boundary of the universe, just as the other 3 dimensions are boundarys to ourselves in this 3d dimension, why does their have to be something to exist outside of it?
Another point is, who can God live outside of these boundaries and just cause effects inside the boundaries? How can he be outisde of time and yet create life which is STRICTLY a "cause and effect" action, dependent on time and space.


reply posted on 12-6-2009 @ 04:54 PM by MrGummyPants
Originally posted by gilgamesh12
well anyone who has read through sitchins books and other similar authors can tell u that god in the bible is really many different things, nibiru , enlil, enki, sometimes marduk. The bible is a giant story book that covers many many years. There are storys that parallel the bible exactly that were written thousands of years before. Noah is Zuisadra, Enoch is really enmeduranki, Cain and Abel are really Enten and Emesh. Sometimes in the bible when they speak of god as making mountains shake and having lightning crash down, or his brightness in the sky blah blah, thats when the bible is talking about nibiru. When god allowed noah to survive, that was really enki providing him with information that nibiru was coming and gonna cause a flood. Usually the more stern acting god in the bible is enlil and the helping loving god is enki. Sometimes enki is portrayed as the devil as well. UMMM also when they talk of THE END OF DAYS, that happens quit often, the end of days is the end of zodiac ages. Back in the day different people would rule during different ages and during the changes all "hell" lol would brake loose. Also the Day of the Lord is really when nibiru comes back around every 3600 years. Each zodiac is 2680 i think it is or maybe 2860 years i forget, but 2860 and 3600 divided by each other are the golden ratio. The maltese cross is one of the first symbols for the planet nibiru, thats why it was around thousands of years before christ. Thats the real meaning of the cross. So god is nibiru and lots of other spacemen that looked just like us. So it is just all science really, the flying planet made earth and spacemen help us along with evolution. The biggest question is who made those spacemen or do they have a god? sorry for rambling on just trying to squeeze in info for those who dont like to read books all the way through




Yeah, I imagine that if the existence of "Aliens" is internationally announced, the major world religeons would be rocked. I mean some include these visitors in their texts, Christianity calls them Nephilim i believe? (sorry if thats wrong), supposbly the offspring of angels and humans. But how could they call them that when they look nothing like their texts imply?
How exaclty would numerous other alien species fit into the existence of a god? Would they have a god too?

Or would a simple fact rock our enitre planet:
That another alien species prays to the same god and knows of Jesus Christ?


reply posted on 12-6-2009 @ 06:16 PM by jackflap
Originally posted by MrGummyPants
Originally posted by jackflap
reply to post by MrGummyPants



I'll tell you how you can know for sure. You will believe. But believing isn't enough unfortunately.

James 2:19 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

[edit on 12-6-2009 by jackflap]


Not to be disrepectful but i will not take Bible quotes as references, just as i will not take quotes from the Matrix as references. Both have some neat ideas but both essentially are a story written by another human being.
I'm not allowed to use wikipedia as a reference in my studies, a source which i find just as reliable as the bible. (Not to say that that fact alone makes me dismiss any chance of beleif), the bible is just untrustworthy and distorted.



The oort cloud is a hypothesized area of space containing numerous comets. Astronomers have said evidence of this oort cloud can be seen from its gravitational influence. No one has ever actually seen this oort cloud but they have a feeling it is there.

Your on your way to a business meeting. You've been traveling all night and you need to get some sleep. Up ahead you see two hotels. The one on your left has a sign that reads Welcome First Church of Satan members of Springfield. They must be having a convention or something. On your right you see a sign in front of the other Hotel that reads Welcome Bible Church of Union City members.

Where are you going to sleep that night? In the Hotel on your left or your right?

Can you feel the gravitational pull? Or are you so far removed from believing anything that you just can't feel it?



Fixed bolding



[edit on 12/6/09 by masqua]



reply posted on 12-6-2009 @ 06:51 PM by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by Quantum_Squirrel


All in all a very good post, but I do have some questions/comments.

That is god Must lie outside time if God is to be the designer and creater of time.


Why?

If it is possible that time had a begining (big bang) its also possible it could have an end. Most theologians would Not want God to come into being at the beginning of time and cease to exist if it should come to an end.


Why would "God" have to start when the universe started?

And this is were Problems start to arise with 'God'

The difficulty of a timeless designer, however, is in making sense of the concept of design. what does it mean to design something 'timelessly'?


From a certain point of view you are correct but if you view "God" as more or less the ultimate scientist running a experiment in search of understanding existance *as some do* that problem goes away. After all human scientists exist well before whatever experiment they may run. I don't agree with this point of view but it is none the less valid in my opinion. My view is that the universe/"God" is more organic in the way of a classroom/nursery/womb were souls are being taught what it is to be.

In human experience, a designer is a being who thinks through in advance the consequences of certain choices, and then selects one. But 'thinking' and 'in advance' are inescapably temporal descriptions.


Possibly not. We are by our very nature at the moment linear beings and are escapably tied to it. I don't think this is one limitation we can see past.

Even if some more abstract notion of 'timeless design' is accepted, a further difficulty arises with the specifics of the designers choice.

Could the designer have choosen a different universe, or chosen not to make a universe at all? .... if the answer is no, then God had no alternative but to create this universe and plays no role at all in the explanation - and so does not merit the title 'designer'.
Nature is reduced to a subset of the divine being rather than a creation of this being. in fact this scenario might as well do away with a designer altogether.


I fail to see how one could cease to be a designer or anything for that matter simply because they are under the compulsion to do so.

Christians, however, traditionally believe something quite different.

They believe that God created this particular universe as a free act: that is, God was free to not make this universe. but this comes with its own set of difficulties, because we can ask why it was that God chose to make this universe, as opposed to a lifeless one, or one with maximum suffering. If the reply is 'it's unfathomable' then the chain of explanation peters out. If the answer is that the choice was blind then again the element of design is lost, because if the selection was purely whimsical, then the universe is reduced to a divine plaything.


There are a great many things that are unfathomable to us yet still they exist. The whys of gravity being one of them.

But if the answer is that the decision to make the universe was a profound and considered one which proceeded from God's nature, then one is prompted to ask about the source of this nature. In other words who designed the designer? making God not god/designer/creator after all..


I view "God" as a child of another "God", just as we are it's children, albeit very young and not "out on our own" as it were.

And this is the problem of God , and if God/designer/creator exists why he/she/other MUST lie outside of time ...


I don't agree but you did put together a very reasoned post.

[edit on 12-6-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]


reply posted on 12-6-2009 @ 08:09 PM by Eight
reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows



Thank you, You are absolutely correct. I had that very same thought in mind when I was writing that post. All of those things would be readily dismissed and parlor tricks


reply posted on 12-6-2009 @ 08:15 PM by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by Eight


My pleasure and thank you. I think as conditions exist. What a person believes to be truth is greatly dependent upon their point of view. Yes even the ones that say they only believe things based on evidence as even what is considered as evidence and how is very much dependent upon the person's point of view. And who is to say who is correct, I am certainly not the one, I don't think anyone is. Those things could easily be accomplished via technology, but that does not mean that it couldn't be done another way either.

*edit: added to statement*

[edit on 12-6-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]


reply posted on 12-6-2009 @ 09:30 PM by Eight
reply to post by Dark Ghost


Your post pertaining to courage makes sense. God is subjective, and the believer gets to set the standards. Things in themselves that are independent of us are unknowable. God is a putative thing in this regard so trying to define God or describe him becomes nothing more than a work of fiction.

The concept of God seems to be necessary to sustain belief in the perfectibility of humans. We maintain the notion that something else(God) other than blind natural causality controls the world and our destiny.

Christians may see “existence” as an attribute of God, to them God’s existence is necessary rather than contingent.


reply posted on 13-6-2009 @ 09:47 AM by Quantum_Squirrel
Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

reply to post by Quantum_Squirrel


A very good reply star for you .. i will do my best to answer your questions.But remember my earlier post all theories make you take something on faith at some point this one included

Quantum_Squirrel :That is god Must lie outside time if God is to be the designer and creater of time,

Watcher : Why.


Even though scientists exist before the experiments they create, they are not part of the system they create they did not create themselves and ther very being does not hinge on being a component of the process.

Quantum_Squirrel :If it is possible that time had a begining (big bang) its also possible it could have an end. Most theologians would Not want God to come into being at the beginning of time and cease to exist if it should come to an end

Watcher : Why would "God" have to start when the universe started?.


I don't 100% understand your question here ...IF the universe has a start then i speculate in original post that God would certainly NOT come into being at the start of the universe .. God must always have been , outside of time/space etc. i think the first two points might have come across better with the first two lines the other way around?

Quantum_Squirrel :And this is were Problems start to arise with 'God'

The difficulty of a timeless designer, however, is in making sense of the concept of design. what does it mean to design something 'timelessly'?

Watcher : From a certain point of view you are correct but if you view "God" as more or less the ultimate scientist running a experiment in search of understanding existance *as some do* that problem goes away. After all human scientists exist well before whatever experiment they may run. I don't agree with this point of view but it is none the less valid in my opinion. My view is that the universe/"God" is more organic in the way of a classroom/nursery/womb were souls are being taught what it is to be.


Now this i find interesting....

if you view "God" as more or less the ultimate scientist running a experiment in search of understanding existance *as some do* that problem goes away.

Why would God be running an experiment to find the understanding of existance.. does he/she/it not know this already? arn't they God? did they not create it all? anyway thats not your view so .. i like the way you grouped the words Universe/God together like that with a slash ...Existance = Universe = mind = Existance.. i like your classrom/womb idea however if souls are taught what to be .. what are the rules they are being taught and who/what made these universal rules?

Quantum_Squirrel :In human experience, a designer is a being who thinks through in advance the consequences of certain choices, and then selects one. But 'thinking' and 'in advance' are inescapably temporal descriptions

Watcher : Possibly not. We are by our very nature at the moment linear beings and are escapably tied to it. I don't think this is one limitation we can see past..


i refer you to the quote below 'Even if some more abstract notion of 'timeless design' is accepted, a further difficulty arises' , like it or not we are temproral , and 'thinking and 'in advance' are temporal descriptions if God has alway been .. (btw NOT Universe/God thats different) .. i am talking God in the atypical organized religion sense here. if he has always been then Why this universe? or why this planet? was it whimsical? or compulsion? either have there problems

Quantum_Squirrel :Even if some more abstract notion of 'timeless design' is accepted, a further difficulty arises with the specifics of the designers choice.

Could the designer have choosen a different universe, or chosen not to make a universe at all? .... if the answer is no, then God had no alternative but to create this universe and plays no role at all in the explanation - and so does not merit the title 'designer'.
Nature is reduced to a subset of the divine being rather than a creation of this being. in fact this scenario might as well do away with a designer altogether.

Watcher :I fail to see how one could cease to be a designer or anything for that matter simply because they are under the compulsion to do so.


If someone/something is under the compulsion to do something a certain way it normally derives from a set of natural laws/values if so were did these come from? because ther lies the ultimate designer, if we are a whimsical divine plaything then the chain of explanation stops and we have to agree to take it on Faith alone .. hmm ther is that pesky word again.


Quantum_Squirrel :Christians, however, traditionally believe something quite different.

They believe that God created this particular universe as a free act: that is, God was free to not make this universe. but this comes with its own set of difficulties, because we can ask why it was that God chose to make this universe, as opposed to a lifeless one, or one with maximum suffering. If the reply is 'it's unfathomable' then the chain of explanation peters out. If the answer is that the choice was blind then again the element of design is lost, because if the selection was purely whimsical, then the universe is reduced to a divine plaything.

Watcher :There are a great many things that are unfathomable to us yet still they exist. The whys of gravity being one of them..


From a Scientific point of view the 'Whys' are not important realy .. the main focus should be 'HOW' because gravity is only realy measurable on a massive scale its difficult for us .. we are very good at looking into the smallest scales of matter but have no experimental evidence for Gravity at this level .... only results are electromagnetic / weak / strong etc at this level .. humans are very good at nitpicking but not too great on seeing the big picture


Quantum_Squirrel :But if the answer is that the decision to make the universe was a profound and considered one which proceeded from God's nature, then one is prompted to ask about the source of this nature. In other words who designed the designer? making God not god/designer/creator after all.

Watcher :I view "God" as a child of another "God", just as we are it's children, albeit very young and not "out on our own" as it were. ..


God by its very definition is the creator of all? if God is the child of God then God is NOT God .. only God numero uno at the top tier is actually God .. and i wonder how top tier God came into existance as well or were his/hers/its nature comes from?.

Quantum_Squirrel :And this is the problem of God , and if God/designer/creator exists why he/she/other MUST lie outside of time.

Watcher :I don't agree but you did put together a very reasoned post....



Thank's for making my Brain work ! dunno if its in the correct direction .. but working none the less is good enough for me ..

I think that some points i maybe did not put it across as intended or it was taken the wrong way . other points we could both easily be right , or equally both easily wrong .

Regards

QS


reply posted on 13-6-2009 @ 10:39 AM by dominicus
reply to post by gilgamesh12


oh my god... blah blah blah god is the great scientist, god is subjective, god is inside all of us, blah blah blah. so many confused minds basing things on pure feeling. please all, read my other post. Yes god was a scientest, enki, and a warrior and a planet. The bible was written to help preserve history for those who already know it and control the minds of those who dont with a monotheistic god. Those people that came along time ago made many mistakes. They were not perfect beings, they fought, and had sex with many women and so on, They are or were no different then us. PLEASE READ MY OTHER POST ABOVE. Unlike everybody else im trying to show you the real anwser to your question

Lol ...hahahaha that's so funny because what you posted above is exactly what I feel about sitchin/enki/mind control.

The God tat I experience daily is a direct experience of a presence everywhere, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and many others do so too!!!

I could never ever limit the infinite to an enki/mind control/sitchin theory.

Yeah maybe sitchin has some pars of it correct, especially the OT god. But as for a real God present in all things, you won't see it until you see behind the ego/awareness/presence of you and all things.

The mind thinks its you, but thoughts are not you.


reply posted on 17-6-2009 @ 03:10 AM by eyebrick
reply to post by MrGummyPants


Good day! I am from Pretoria, South Aafrica. I wish I could speak to some one who really wants to listen to what I want to tell them.

Maybe you are the one that I need to talk to. Lets say for this discussion point, that I am a non-believer (although I am a believer), ... I have experienced something on 17 Jne 2007 (2yr ago), but it seems like no-one wants to believe me. The closest that I could describe it to you, is that I have in my posession a 4min 12 sec digital recording that was Super-Naturaly created on my Laptop ... yes, something weird that had happended on that day.

The fact of the matter is that the content of the recording, is what you might be interested in. Is is to date, and this I can almost promise you, the most clear EVP recording or incident that mankind has ever received.

It is in fact the best unknown 'signal' that was ever received by mankind. So yes, the WOW! Signal incident has repeated itself ... but this time with a difference ... the incident was recoded, as I have evidence in my possesion.

To explan the content, it needs to be interpreted ... so you need to have some kind of information to be used as reference to have some sort of meaning to it. And in this case, the only source of reference tht you could use, is the Bible.

When the content of the 'signal' is Biblically interpreted ... you will define the following : The voice of God, the devil and confirmation of the Spiritual world, thus the actual recording of the Spirit of God ...

But no-one beliefs me, as it is to good to be true. Now for me to have experienced thi whol vent, being the receiver of the 'signal', is truely an honour, but simultaniously a big frustration as there is n-one who believes me, not even religious people themselves.

Now put yourself in my shoes : being a believer, how can I try to convince non-believers, whilst the believers themselves do not even believe me? Weird hey? ...

The lenght of the signal is 4min 12 sec .... 4:12 ... read Hebr 4:12 ... as this was given to me as a confirmation that the Bible is a true source for mankind to believe in.

Remember ... the current status quo of the world NEED to take place ... people has to fall away from believing in God ... you, not to believe in God, is confirmation of the Bible, do you realise that my friend? ... the end is appraoching, day by day, bit by bit ... this was prophasised, thus the reason for the wrah of God as explained in Revelation ... can't you see the bigger picture? ... It is realy a shame that people form unknowingly part of the reason for the wrath of God and for them not to acknowledge it. But they won't, as they don't believe in God and don't know these things, as they don't read the Bible anymore.

Feel free to contact me in this regard if you are still unsure, but this 'signal' that was received, surely means more than meets the eye. It is a confirmation of the content of the Word of God, to be seen as a sign with multiple meaning ... if only I could speak to someone who WANTS to listen.

Enjoy the rest of your day ...

quintus.eksteen@sita.co.za


reply posted on 17-6-2009 @ 07:02 AM by jackflap
reply to post by eyebrick



Would you please start another thread and post the miraculous audio signal that you alone were privileged to receive? I'm sure someone will drive a concrete truck through the proclaimed divine signal and show you what it really is. I have a picture of a flying elephant that gives gifts on certain days and grants wishes to those who capture it on film. Want to see it?
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