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The Chemtrail Phenomenon
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reply to post by wonderworld
Non Sequiturs. Every one of them. Unless you can show that just 1 of those examples involved the spraying of substances at high altitude and that those substances, having left the aircraft, were not only visible from the ground but behaved in a manner identical to contrails.
Of course, it's possible that none of thise cases involved such things - and that similar spraying continues today. But no-one knows because they're all to busy running scared of the contrail bogeyman.
Conspiracy? Could be. And if so you're one of the patsys making it work*
* I do not personally believe such activities do take place on anything but a small, localised level for military/scientific testing. But nonetheless cannot exclude the possibility that large scale spraying could take place. Though if true, I guess those involved in the conspiracy may not be too happy to see me trying to debunk their smokescreen .......
Non Sequiturs. Every one of them. Unless you can show that just 1 of those examples involved the spraying of substances at high altitude and that those substances, having left the aircraft, were not only visible from the ground but behaved in a manner identical to contrails.
Of course, it's possible that none of thise cases involved such things - and that similar spraying continues today. But no-one knows because they're all to busy running scared of the contrail bogeyman.
Conspiracy? Could be. And if so you're one of the patsys making it work*
* I do not personally believe such activities do take place on anything but a small, localised level for military/scientific testing. But nonetheless cannot exclude the possibility that large scale spraying could take place. Though if true, I guess those involved in the conspiracy may not be too happy to see me trying to debunk their smokescreen .......
reply to post by blc4r4
Posting a whole series of youtube videos without comment is not considered good practice and indeed may see you fall foul of the 'one liner' rule.
What not explain to us why you are so sure that what you see in those videos are chemtrails and not contrails?
Posting a whole series of youtube videos without comment is not considered good practice and indeed may see you fall foul of the 'one liner' rule.
What not explain to us why you are so sure that what you see in those videos are chemtrails and not contrails?
reply to post by neformore
Bs, plane spotters as long as they can identify the aircraft type have a visual reference for what the plane looks like at cruising altitude (which it will be at most of the time). From that it's easy to see if the same plane is lower as it will be bigger. The point of reference is the plane itself. Of course this won't be exact science but it's good enough for a subjective idea of what's going on, especially in a phenomenon that repeats itself.
I hate arbitrary limitations of the possible and psuedo scientific dogmatic statements. You can and have done better in previous posts. You'te just looking to avoid witness testimony with excessive criteria imo, probably based on a subconscious rejection of the chemtrail topic.
Bs, plane spotters as long as they can identify the aircraft type have a visual reference for what the plane looks like at cruising altitude (which it will be at most of the time). From that it's easy to see if the same plane is lower as it will be bigger. The point of reference is the plane itself. Of course this won't be exact science but it's good enough for a subjective idea of what's going on, especially in a phenomenon that repeats itself.
I hate arbitrary limitations of the possible and psuedo scientific dogmatic statements. You can and have done better in previous posts. You'te just looking to avoid witness testimony with excessive criteria imo, probably based on a subconscious rejection of the chemtrail topic.
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
Originally posted by Mindmelding
reply to post by neformore
Bs, plane spotters as long as they can identify the aircraft type have a visual reference for what the plane looks like at cruising altitude (which it will be at most of the time). From that it's easy to see if the same plane is lower as it will be bigger. The point of reference is the plane itself. Of course this won't be exact science but it's good enough for a subjective idea of what's going on, especially in a phenomenon that repeats itself.
No. Its not. Because conditions can vary at differing altitudes, and a distance in altitude can mean there are differing temperatures.
Aircraft do not all fly at the same altitude. They are seperated deliberately by air traffic controllers with horizontal and vertical distances. This can perfectly explain the claim "this one leaves a trail and this one doesn't" - because if they are separated by half a mile, thats more than enough for a difference in conditions.
Accepting that as fact, which it is, I then need more to go on.
I hate arbitrary limitations of the possible and psuedo scientific dogmatic statements.
So why are you using them? I asked you for the science, and you couldn't provide it. You said it was calculable. It isn't - otherwise you would have explained it. My previous question still stands - can you answer it?
You'te just looking to avoid witness testimony with excessive criteria imo, probably based on a subconscious rejection of the chemtrail topic.
No. I'm looking for facts, and evidence.
For instance, in the Lonnie Zamora UFO case, there were ground traces where he claimed the object to have been that were recorded by independant investigators attending the scene immediately after the event and there were corroborating witness reports of the object in the area.
In the Belgian UFO flap, the Belgian air force released radar returns of the object sighted from the ground, and viewed on ground radar and on airborne radar, and there was also testimony from the pilots of the planes sent to intercept the craft.
Those are facts and reliable evidence that point the finger at something unusual happening in the area, at the time. I can perfectly accept both of them.
You on the other hand are arguing that something that can be explained as persistant contrails is something different, and when asked for evidence you can't provide it other than to say there are lines in the sky. I'm asking for more evidence than that, and I'm not getting it despite the fact I've asked for it a number of times. All I'm getting is obfuscation and a run around.
I want to be educated. I want to know. I'm trying desperately to understand. Why is it so hard to actually provide something I can work with here?
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
reply to post by Essan
Thank you Essan. I appreciate your open mind! I try to keep myself open to new theories, as well. I was truly a total skeptic on this subject telling others they were crazy, that our government would never do this.
To be honest I think originally they tried to help the climate and have made some environmental errors and simply wont fess up. Also possible as a war tactic. If they do this for a more sinister reason I am alarmed. Health and welfare of our citizens is first and foremost.
I just posted the government data, as an example that nasty things, with the use of chemicals have been going on for decades. It doesnt mention high altutude spraying only lower types.
While at my computer I have a nice view of the sky. I did over react yesterday when I saw a small jet withinf feet of a larger plane. I actaully had everyone come and see it. I found out it was a refueling mission. I had never seen that before. I do of course know it's very common.
Neither plane left a Contrail!! They must have been at a lower altitude and the outside temp was 94 F. I did see a few nice high contrails yesterday morning. The Seattle to Boston route. Same flight path every day.
Thank you Essan. I appreciate your open mind! I try to keep myself open to new theories, as well. I was truly a total skeptic on this subject telling others they were crazy, that our government would never do this.
To be honest I think originally they tried to help the climate and have made some environmental errors and simply wont fess up. Also possible as a war tactic. If they do this for a more sinister reason I am alarmed. Health and welfare of our citizens is first and foremost.
I just posted the government data, as an example that nasty things, with the use of chemicals have been going on for decades. It doesnt mention high altutude spraying only lower types.
While at my computer I have a nice view of the sky. I did over react yesterday when I saw a small jet withinf feet of a larger plane. I actaully had everyone come and see it. I found out it was a refueling mission. I had never seen that before. I do of course know it's very common.
Neither plane left a Contrail!! They must have been at a lower altitude and the outside temp was 94 F. I did see a few nice high contrails yesterday morning. The Seattle to Boston route. Same flight path every day.
Originally posted by wonderworld
reply to post by Spirit Warrior
With all of your qualifications I can see why you are hush, hush, either that or you dont understand what's going on here.
I don't see what you mean. Of course I cannot talk about ongoing projects, but that does not address the fact that NOTHING would stop me from reporting something about chemtrails if I find it. And I would, greater good you see.
I am just posting educated and experienced questions that need to be addressed to ensure the credibility of the chemtrail debate. I don't want anyone to read into that any further than that statement because I mean no offense to anyone. But these questions need to be answered in some fashion. The subject needs more hard data and less speculation.
reply to post by Spirit Warrior
Sorry, what I meant to say was with your expertise and qualifications you have great knowledge of contrails; although most pilots are not involved with Chemtrails . It is classified information.
Some commercial pilots have reported Chemtrails or unexplainable changes in the formation of contrails and unexplained weather conditions. Some have reported seeing missile like objects. I assume these are drone craft that are off the normal flight paths.
I have witnessed this myself. My daughter received at 1st degree burn on her shoulder and we were immediately put on a small jet headed for the burn unit. The nurse, my daughter and I sat in the back. My daughter was on very strong pain pills so we dismissed what she was saying when she said mom there’s a rocket coming.
Less than a minute later something huge crossed above us from the right. I didn’t have time to see it clearly but at first thought it was a continental commercial flight. After that close call I’m still not sure what is was. It appeared to be climbing fast headed straight up.
We may have somehow been on the same flight path and altitude or one of us was off course. I’m not claiming it was spraying chemicals, the sky was however mercky and only saw this as it crossed our path. Very scary. It was huge.
Sorry, what I meant to say was with your expertise and qualifications you have great knowledge of contrails; although most pilots are not involved with Chemtrails . It is classified information.
Some commercial pilots have reported Chemtrails or unexplainable changes in the formation of contrails and unexplained weather conditions. Some have reported seeing missile like objects. I assume these are drone craft that are off the normal flight paths.
I have witnessed this myself. My daughter received at 1st degree burn on her shoulder and we were immediately put on a small jet headed for the burn unit. The nurse, my daughter and I sat in the back. My daughter was on very strong pain pills so we dismissed what she was saying when she said mom there’s a rocket coming.
Less than a minute later something huge crossed above us from the right. I didn’t have time to see it clearly but at first thought it was a continental commercial flight. After that close call I’m still not sure what is was. It appeared to be climbing fast headed straight up.
We may have somehow been on the same flight path and altitude or one of us was off course. I’m not claiming it was spraying chemicals, the sky was however mercky and only saw this as it crossed our path. Very scary. It was huge.
A quick question to those who think that when they see an "X" in the sky, and take that as a sign of chemtrail activity:
How do you know it is so? Why cant it be that one contrail from a passenger jet heading one way crosses the contrail of another jet going another way perpendicularly? When a northbound United Airlines jet from Miami to Minneapolis is laying down a contrail, has its contrail crossed by a westbound NYC to San Diego AA jet who is also laying down a contrail, wont that also create the "X" in the sky? I'm sure you should at least know that two flight paths can cross each other (of course slightly different altitudes), its bound to happen. And I'm pretty sure its a daily occurrence. Sometimes the conditions are just right for the contrails to show that.
How do you know it is so? Why cant it be that one contrail from a passenger jet heading one way crosses the contrail of another jet going another way perpendicularly? When a northbound United Airlines jet from Miami to Minneapolis is laying down a contrail, has its contrail crossed by a westbound NYC to San Diego AA jet who is also laying down a contrail, wont that also create the "X" in the sky? I'm sure you should at least know that two flight paths can cross each other (of course slightly different altitudes), its bound to happen. And I'm pretty sure its a daily occurrence. Sometimes the conditions are just right for the contrails to show that.
reply to post by GenRadek
There are cross overs in air traffic control, that show the X, this must not be confused with 2 planes leaving contrails at identically the same time.
Notice in this video that you see an occasional X, you will not see any grids. They use different altitudes and occasionally must drift off a flight path.
They also circle around until the have clearance to land. Pay close attention to the Air Traffic Control screens, in the background and you will see.
www.youtube.com...
There are cross overs in air traffic control, that show the X, this must not be confused with 2 planes leaving contrails at identically the same time.
Notice in this video that you see an occasional X, you will not see any grids. They use different altitudes and occasionally must drift off a flight path.
They also circle around until the have clearance to land. Pay close attention to the Air Traffic Control screens, in the background and you will see.
www.youtube.com...
reply to post by wonderworld
Ah, but why cant it be that two passenger jets are crossing over at the same time? See cause I've been on flights before where I can see another jet passing just behind us a few thousand feet below our plane and roughly the same time. Not uncommon either.
As for the grids, well thats another explanation. When you have a busy air corridor, with numerous aircraft traveling in all four directions (north west south east) of course you will have more contrails. Now \, lets throw in some upper air dynamics. Say there is a jet stream right over one such area, which is blowing from west to east. Now, lets have about 5-10 passenger jets that are flying north to south routes. There is a 10-15 minute delay between each aircraft. Now, they are at altitude where persistent contrails are able to form and last. Now what we have here is something akin to a "conveyor belt" in the sky. The west to east winds are blowing the contrails from west to east. From the ground you will see a whole series of line forming in almost parallel form. Now, its obvious that the contrails are moving over and another is being laid down in the same place. Its just that winds have carried the contrail a certain distance. Now, lets throw in some cross-traffic going east to west, and they are a few thousand feet lower, below the north south route. Now at this level the winds are blowing from roughly south to north. What will happen is pretty much the same thing. What happens then? A grid pattern. And yes, winds can and do change directions with height. You will have lines crossing lines perpendicularly which creates a whole "grid".
[edit on 6/5/2009 by GenRadek]
Ah, but why cant it be that two passenger jets are crossing over at the same time? See cause I've been on flights before where I can see another jet passing just behind us a few thousand feet below our plane and roughly the same time. Not uncommon either.
As for the grids, well thats another explanation. When you have a busy air corridor, with numerous aircraft traveling in all four directions (north west south east) of course you will have more contrails. Now \, lets throw in some upper air dynamics. Say there is a jet stream right over one such area, which is blowing from west to east. Now, lets have about 5-10 passenger jets that are flying north to south routes. There is a 10-15 minute delay between each aircraft. Now, they are at altitude where persistent contrails are able to form and last. Now what we have here is something akin to a "conveyor belt" in the sky. The west to east winds are blowing the contrails from west to east. From the ground you will see a whole series of line forming in almost parallel form. Now, its obvious that the contrails are moving over and another is being laid down in the same place. Its just that winds have carried the contrail a certain distance. Now, lets throw in some cross-traffic going east to west, and they are a few thousand feet lower, below the north south route. Now at this level the winds are blowing from roughly south to north. What will happen is pretty much the same thing. What happens then? A grid pattern. And yes, winds can and do change directions with height. You will have lines crossing lines perpendicularly which creates a whole "grid".
[edit on 6/5/2009 by GenRadek]
reply to post by GenRadek
Well I do like discussing contrails with you, rather than arguing Chemtrails.
Do you have any cool info on contrails that ever made you curious, without calling it a chemtrail?
Or perhaps some strange phenomenon about odd cloud formations?
Regardless of what side of the fence we're on science is facinating to all us us on this thread but sure stirs high debates.
Well I do like discussing contrails with you, rather than arguing Chemtrails.
Do you have any cool info on contrails that ever made you curious, without calling it a chemtrail?
Or perhaps some strange phenomenon about odd cloud formations?
Regardless of what side of the fence we're on science is facinating to all us us on this thread but sure stirs high debates.
I have taken some Chemtrail photos here in China last year that could show you that it was not by airplanes or natural. Those photos are in my
computer now, but I have already spend more than one hour, still cannot find out how to insert a photo here. Pls advise. Thanks.
(p.s. : I also cannot see almost any photos or videos in ATS and a lot of other websites, any idea hot to fix it? I am using IE & Window XP, Thanks.)
(p.s. : I also cannot see almost any photos or videos in ATS and a lot of other websites, any idea hot to fix it? I am using IE & Window XP, Thanks.)
reply to post by CONTACT
Cool!
First look at the top menu bar, click on member tools, scroll down to my pictures, click browse, then upload. After the upload is complete, click on the image to enlarge it, under the image is an address bar, only copy the top address bar, them paste in in your reply box, at the top next to the evvelope icon. That is is insert image.
I'm anxious to see them. Did you think my drone image was a drone?
[edit on 5-6-2009 by wonderworld]
Cool!
First look at the top menu bar, click on member tools, scroll down to my pictures, click browse, then upload. After the upload is complete, click on the image to enlarge it, under the image is an address bar, only copy the top address bar, them paste in in your reply box, at the top next to the evvelope icon. That is is insert image.
I'm anxious to see them. Did you think my drone image was a drone?
[edit on 5-6-2009 by wonderworld]
Originally posted by wonderworld
reply to post by CONTACT
Cool!
First look at the top menu bar, click on member tools, scroll down to my pictures, click browse, then upload. After the upload is complete, click on the image to enlarge it, under the image is an address bar, only copy the top address bar, them paste in in your reply box, at the top next to the evvelope icon. That is is insert image.
I'm anxious to see them. Did you think my drone image was a drone?
[edit on 5-6-2009 by wonderworld]
Thanks. I have problem seeing most photos here at ATS, can u help too? Anyway, I try to post my photo first, this photo I took personally last year, this "chemtrail" last for an hour! It was not by any airplane, and since every other clouds nearby changed as time goes by except that one, It didn't seem like natual too. After days it was taken, Japan had a big earthquake. You should see more by searching the word "earthquake cloud" too, or something like that (sorry, my English is not very good).
neformore,
Chemtrails as ufo's and aliens proof is all over the place. I don't know exactly what you are looking for.....nothing is good enough and I don't think you are really putting any effort into discovery yourself.
Go out watch/get to know the air traffic and observe. If you don't see it on a heavy spray day and you are not able to tell the difference then as I see it you are just one that will be in denial and so be it.
Remember deep breathe sorry
Chemtrails as ufo's and aliens proof is all over the place. I don't know exactly what you are looking for.....nothing is good enough and I don't think you are really putting any effort into discovery yourself.
Go out watch/get to know the air traffic and observe. If you don't see it on a heavy spray day and you are not able to tell the difference then as I see it you are just one that will be in denial and so be it.
Remember deep breathe sorry
reply to post by CONTACT
The earthquake after a Chemtrail is always caused by HAARP chemtrails. Very powerful!!
HAARP is a weapon of mass destruction.
Radio Waves strong enough to cause earthquakes are controlled by the U.S. military.
It’s the largest ionospheric heater in the world. Capable of heating a 1000 square kilometer area of the ionosphere to over 50,000 degrees. It’s also a phased array. Which means it’s steer-able and those waves can be directed to a selected target area. What they have found is that by sending radio frequency energy up and focusing it, as they do with these kinds of instruments, it causes a heating effect. And that heating literally lifts the ionosphere within a 30 mile diameter area therein changing localized pressure systems or perhaps the route of jet streams. Moving a jet stream is a phenomenal event in terms of man being able to do this. The problem is we cannot model the system adequately. Long term consequences of atmospheric heating are unknown. Changing weather in one place can have a devastating downstream effect. And H.A.A.R.P. has already been accused of modifying the weather.
www.bariumblues.com...
[edit on 5-6-2009 by wonderworld]
The earthquake after a Chemtrail is always caused by HAARP chemtrails. Very powerful!!
HAARP is a weapon of mass destruction.
Radio Waves strong enough to cause earthquakes are controlled by the U.S. military.
It’s the largest ionospheric heater in the world. Capable of heating a 1000 square kilometer area of the ionosphere to over 50,000 degrees. It’s also a phased array. Which means it’s steer-able and those waves can be directed to a selected target area. What they have found is that by sending radio frequency energy up and focusing it, as they do with these kinds of instruments, it causes a heating effect. And that heating literally lifts the ionosphere within a 30 mile diameter area therein changing localized pressure systems or perhaps the route of jet streams. Moving a jet stream is a phenomenal event in terms of man being able to do this. The problem is we cannot model the system adequately. Long term consequences of atmospheric heating are unknown. Changing weather in one place can have a devastating downstream effect. And H.A.A.R.P. has already been accused of modifying the weather.
www.bariumblues.com...
[edit on 5-6-2009 by wonderworld]
I just want to throw something in here..........
Ground Rot...........
I live in the Midwest and last year alot of the tomatoes went to rot before they were even ripe, this year I am already observing something odd.
For instance, the flowerbed is producing mushroom fungus and it didn't last year.
I am also noticing that the ground doesn't seem to dry.........We had rain on Tuesday and here it is Friday, no rain since Tuesday.........80 degrees outside and at 10AM there is still "early morning dew" on the grass and flowers.........like it was still not drying in the ground. As a matter of fact I am not sure if it has been dry yet this year!!!!!
I wonder if somehow the sun isn't penetrating until later in the day where it used to dry things up pretty early~
Ground Rot...........
I live in the Midwest and last year alot of the tomatoes went to rot before they were even ripe, this year I am already observing something odd.
For instance, the flowerbed is producing mushroom fungus and it didn't last year.
I am also noticing that the ground doesn't seem to dry.........We had rain on Tuesday and here it is Friday, no rain since Tuesday.........80 degrees outside and at 10AM there is still "early morning dew" on the grass and flowers.........like it was still not drying in the ground. As a matter of fact I am not sure if it has been dry yet this year!!!!!
I wonder if somehow the sun isn't penetrating until later in the day where it used to dry things up pretty early~
reply to post by interestedalways
Hey,
That's weird. What do you think it is? A combination chem spray and mold fungus from the exhaust.
The ground not drying out may indicate a chemical reaction! How do we know if our food is being poisoned?
I'd really like to see some ground samples. Do you have a kit. They dont cost much but are a bit scientific if you dont know molecular structures.
It makes me wonder if the EPA would do some sampling but not sure if they are involved. You know like "spray three trees for disease" type of stuff.
Hey,
That's weird. What do you think it is? A combination chem spray and mold fungus from the exhaust.
The ground not drying out may indicate a chemical reaction! How do we know if our food is being poisoned?
I'd really like to see some ground samples. Do you have a kit. They dont cost much but are a bit scientific if you dont know molecular structures.
It makes me wonder if the EPA would do some sampling but not sure if they are involved. You know like "spray three trees for disease" type of stuff.
reply to post by interestedalways
In my region, which I'm sorry but shall remain nameless, I've noticed persistant cloud cover in the afternoons. Solar exposure is down, but rain levels are also low, although one interesting thing is that despite the chemtrails natural storms still come in and simply blow all the crap out of the sky. Crops are growing but a lot of farmers have talked about rotting.
A lot of the clouds are artificial, I know that. But as for their purpose and effects I'm not sure. Things "feel" different though, as if there's a weight on us, it's wierd and hard to describe and I'm pretty sure it's not just psychological, although the proliferation of cell phone towers and microwave emissions is something I think we are all feeling.
Meh, we are victims of our own technology and lack of common sense and patience.
In my region, which I'm sorry but shall remain nameless, I've noticed persistant cloud cover in the afternoons. Solar exposure is down, but rain levels are also low, although one interesting thing is that despite the chemtrails natural storms still come in and simply blow all the crap out of the sky. Crops are growing but a lot of farmers have talked about rotting.
A lot of the clouds are artificial, I know that. But as for their purpose and effects I'm not sure. Things "feel" different though, as if there's a weight on us, it's wierd and hard to describe and I'm pretty sure it's not just psychological, although the proliferation of cell phone towers and microwave emissions is something I think we are all feeling.
Meh, we are victims of our own technology and lack of common sense and patience.
reply to post by wonderworld
Well, I don't want to go crazy with speculation, but if such a thing continues and crops don't do well I can see it paving the way for the big M.
Monsanto and it's terminator seeds.
I don't want to hijack here, I just wondered if others have made the same observation.............
Well, I don't want to go crazy with speculation, but if such a thing continues and crops don't do well I can see it paving the way for the big M.
Monsanto and it's terminator seeds.
I don't want to hijack here, I just wondered if others have made the same observation.............
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