Christianity is an Imaginary "Sin Insurance" Racket

reply to post by phoebeflakes


"I am not a person that believes in Sunday school, if you haven't gathered that much yet lol "

I was asked not to return to Sunday School when I started asking questions the preacher couldn't answer. That was when I was seven.

Originally posted by Gawdzilla
I was asked not to return to Sunday School when I started asking questions the preacher couldn't answer. That was when I was seven. [/quote

That's really sad....and not right, in the least.
It's just my opinion, but I think preachers should be people that lead a group in exploring their religion/Bible, Christianity, whatever and willing to learn and if they don't understand something, not banish people who question them on it....but work with them.
I doubt any human can ever explain every single thing in the Bible. If we're so flawed, as it says, there is no place for pride in our version of it.
So he should have just admitted that he didn't know answers. Maybe he would have learned something for himself.

Originally posted by UrsusMajor
OK, In my opinion, every single one of the examples below was a direct result of organized religion. I know Modern Christians don't like the crusades, but it was sure #1 on the hit parade with Christians when it was going on. I have spared you the obligatory Salem Witch Trials, because I know they are indefensible. In fact, all of these are indefensible, all created strife for mankind, all were caused by organized religion. Prove me wrong, or show me how any of these were a benefit.

Crusades
The Crusades were a series of military campaigns—usually sanctioned by the Papacy

French Wars Of Religion
wars between Roman Catholics and Protestants

Thirty Years War
Religious warfare between Roman Catholics and Calvinists

I have many, many more if you would care to open this can of worms further.

Yes, yes I would! It was a good first effort, but much more is required. You list wars. Fine. However, Vox Day has published a book called "The Irrational Atheist" that shows that "More than 93 percent of all the wars in human history had no relation to religion." It is free to download, and has extensive foot notes and appendices. For all of you playing at home, please pay close attention to chapters 5 and 6. It is available at irrationalatheist.com... (Please note that it is not specifically about wars, battles, etc., but has a great many subjects)

If the claim is true, that would mean that only 7 percent of wars fought were about religion. That's not very many.

Here is a link to a table showing various communist-attributed murders: www.hawaii.edu... It shows, that at the very least, 40 MILLION people have been killed by atheist government in just the last 100 years. There are even more papers listed on that website at www.hawaii.edu...

One of the core tenants of communism is atheism, correct? (And don't even TRY and pull the "No True Scotsman" fallacy on this discussion.)

Edit to add: Isn't it amazing how many atheists have "preachers" that can't answer questions in "sunday school" when they are 7 years old? Look around on the internet, and see how many atheists claim the exact same thing.

[edit on 15-4-2009 by sir_chancealot]

reply to post by sir_chancealot


"Vox Day has published a book called "The Irrational Atheist" that shows that "More than 93 percent of all the wars in human history had no relation to religion." "

That certainly sounds like an unbiased and disinterested source with no agenda.

Originally posted by Gawdzilla
reply to post by sir_chancealot

 

"Vox Day has published a book called "The Irrational Atheist" that shows that "More than 93 percent of all the wars in human history had no relation to religion." "

That certainly sounds like an unbiased and disinterested source with no agenda.

Hey, if you can show me another book that shows all the wars throughout history, and their cause (i.e., stemming from religion or not), I'd be glad to take a look at it.

Originally posted by sir_chancealot

Originally posted by Gawdzilla
reply to post by sir_chancealot

 

"Vox Day has published a book called "The Irrational Atheist" that shows that "More than 93 percent of all the wars in human history had no relation to religion." "

That certainly sounds like an unbiased and disinterested source with no agenda.

Hey, if you can show me another book that shows all the wars throughout history, and their cause (i.e., stemming from religion or not), I'd be glad to take a look at it.

One book? No. Many books, yes. I got my MA in History from Purdue in '06 and my emphasis was on military history. (Not at all surprising for a Navy veteran.) However, sorting out the "cause" of a war is not always a clear cut as we'd like. So there's no way to say for certain which wars started for which reasons. Some, like the Crusades, were fought to "liberate the Holy Lands", but also to use up all those extra sons running around Europe, and to secure trade routes to the Far East. Power, Religion, Money. The Holy Trinity.

Originally posted by sir_chancealot

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
I'm sorry but I would say that you had broken these other rules. Because the mere act of walking by me trapped in the pit is hurtful.

I don't see any distinction between these golden rules, but thank you for posting them :-)

You apparently are not familiar with what the words "do" and "to" mean. (And no, I'm not being facetious here).

Do: to bring to pass...perform, execute...

To: used as a function word to indicate movement or an action or condition suggestive of movement toward a place, person, or thing reached

While the "mere act of walking by me trapped in the pit" certainly WOULD be "hurtful", it does NOT break those other rules. I have DONE nothing TO you.

In the other golden rules, I have to ACTIVELY do some form of harm to you to be breaking the rule. Merely leaving you to your own devices is not harm. You would be in no worse shape when I passed by, as you would have been before I passed by.

How have I "done" anything "to" you by ignoring you? I haven't, by the very definition of the words.

This is NOT a mere symantical difference. There is a very profound (though, again, very SUBTLE) difference in the two.

Could you take it back to the original Greek though? Because the words you are parsing were from a different language than what the book was originally written in.

reply to post by badmedia


Sorry I was away for longer than expected. I've wondered for a long time what life would have been like, if truly applicable, before the knowledge of good and evil. Does it mean that there was no major wrongdoing, therefore good (or good enough) reigned supreme, but that they didn't have anything to compare it to, so it didn't have any name or designation? Or could it possibly have meant that, say, whenever someone murdered, battered or raped someone else, they wouldn't have had any negative (or significantly negative) reaction to it, therefore would have been soulless automatons, Borg freaks?

reply to post by Dean Goldberry


Just think Satan loves you!

That’s all you should care about. Rejoice and enjoy it.

I think you are doing a good job of sacrificing your soul here.

Satan is the only one who still accepts sacrifices at the present time.

Originally posted by Dean Goldberry
Sorry I was away for longer than expected. I've wondered for a long time what life would have been like, if truly applicable, before the knowledge of good and evil. Does it mean that there was no major wrongdoing, therefore good (or good enough) reigned supreme, but that they didn't have anything to compare it to, so it didn't have any name or designation? Or could it possibly have meant that, say, whenever someone murdered, battered or raped someone else, they wouldn't have had any negative (or significantly negative) reaction to it, therefore would have been soulless automatons, Borg freaks?

Interesting question, and I'm not really sure either. I can tell you what a society of people who only do good would be like, but can't really say what it would be like to not know the difference.

I guess we just wouldn't know anything other than good things, and things like killing or stealing from a person would never enter our minds as something we could do.

That is interesting - do you believe in anything spiritual?

As a beliiever in Jesus, I have to ask.

reply to post by spellbound


Assuming you're asking me, the answer is absolutely YES. I believe in reincarnation and other unexplained phenomena. I just don't associate spirituality with any religion... or necessarily. I don't believe in Satan, and I TEND not to believe in a Single Creator of the entire universe, but I'm open-minded.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
....
.everything has a price ...

Really?? what is the price of love? I mean the unconditional-infinite kind of love?

Interestingly, the bible never claims that God is/has infinite love, or states her omnipotence, omnipresence, or omniscience. It's hard to be angry if you have infinite love and understanding.. hehe. Ink

Originally posted by Inkrinhuminge

Originally posted by Simplynoone
....
.everything has a price ...

Really?? what is the price of love? I mean the unconditional-infinite kind of love?

Interestingly, the bible never claims that God is/has infinite love, or states her omnipotence, omnipresence, or omniscience. It's hard to be angry if you have infinite love and understanding.. hehe. Ink

Umm, no it's not. People who love their children get angry all the time. In fact, if you don't punish your kids for the wrong things they do, then THAT is a lack of love. Because a parent loves their children and doesn't want them to screw up and make mistakes, they punish their children to teach them lessons.

Why do people want to equate love as meaning "always nice"? I wonder if they have actually ever experienced love, or if they have any children of their own.

I guess anyone who's ever been angry with their child just no longer loves that child? Silly. Bout as far as you can go with this line of thought is in regards to hell being eternal. As what parent would punish their child for eternity? They don't, they only punish to teach a lesson, beyond that it's just a sick pleasure/pain fetish.

Even love has its price ...when you love others ....and they do not return your love nor do they care if you love them or not ...you go to them daily reaching out your love to them and yet they keep refusing it ....and tell you to leave them alone ........would you not let them go or walk away so your not bothering them anymore offering something they do not want ?
Lets say you fall in love and the person you fell in love with is not happy with you anymore ...would you force them to stay with you even if you know they are unhappy and do not love you back ? Or would you release them and let them go ? ........I left my Ex hubby ..not because I was unhappy (even though I was ) but because he wasnt happy being with me (he had several affairs and was always looking for someone else while we were together) ..but he would not just walk away from me either because he wanted his cake and eat it to ...he thought he loved me maybe but not the way that I loved him ......I sat for years wondering if I should leave him for HIS SAKE ...since he wasnt going to leave me (I took good care of him and he needed me but did not love me) .......he was miserable everyday (for many reasons not all just because of me) ...I could not stand to see him so unhappy because I loved him so much I wanted HIM To be happy ....I realized that I was the one holding him back from him finding happiness ...he would have let it go on indefinately ..(we were together 17 years) .....not to mention his unhappiness was making me unhappy as well ..........................

The Lord God will reach out as long as it takes for all to come to him ...but eventually even he will let you go and will stop bothering you to know him and just let you go whichever way you choose to go .......

He loves you but if you do not care for him or care to know him why would he continue to bother you ? He would not ...
The price you will pay for that decision is serious ...(love was offered ...it was not accepted ..thats your choice not his)
The price God will pay is that he will have to watch you go into destruction ..
That does not make God feel good (it hurts his heart that he tried to do what was best for you and you chose not to go that way but go your own way which scripture says will lead to destruction) think of a parent of an 18 year old who chose his own path and it was a major serious horrible path that they choose over the path you suggested that they go ) ....but because he loves you ...he will let you go the path YOU CHOOSE to go down ...................as we do our children once they are grown and have made their decision on what they will do from there ...we can tell them and tell them (out of love and concern for their well being ) that the road they are going down is a dangerous deadly road ...some may listen some will not ..
Those that wont take that advice and change the road they are going down and they will either get caught up in their messes (drugs drunkeness etc or whatever) and be taken down a very rough road that MAY certainly lead to their death and destruction ..some may take that road and change their minds about half way through the mess seeing where they are heading ..and they will change it ...some will heed the parents advice and choose not to even go down that road ...we just dont know ...but once they make that decision and refuse our advice help etc ..we have no choice but to STEP BACK and let them go .....

Vision that as the same as what God is dealing with ...with each one of us .

There will be an end to all things says the Lord ..there will be totally destruction of the things that are here now (burning of the field so he can replant anew) he has to burn the CHAFF in order to replant that garden and make it all anew ...if you are that chaff and you chose that way ...that was your choice ..because he warned us all ...and is still warning us that it is coming ....but someday the warning time will be up and it will be the time that it will come and be done .....and then you cannot change your mind right as it is coming down ..
ONce it starts it wont be stopped ..or delayed .....your choice will be your choice ....and there will be a price to pay for making that WRONG CHOICE>










[edit on 16-4-2009 by Simplynoone]

[edit on 16-4-2009 by Simplynoone]

Badmedia [Notice it says you will know, not that someone will tell you and so forth. Can't be told, must be experienced]


I would only ask you one question .....if this were true then why would the apostles (not just them but everyone who they told about Jesus and believed) be told to go into all the world and preach the gospel to all men everywhere ?

How can they know about Jesus and what he did and why he did it unless they first HEAR OF IT ?


Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


I am aware of the fact that you do not believe anything that Paul says .
But even Peter and John go into this ....do your homework .....

They were taught by Jesus to go and TELL EVERYONE EVERYWHERE to REPENT and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ ..for the remission of sins THEN THEY WOULD RECIEVE THE HOLY GHOST ..it is not just within you already ........and the Jews and Gentiles did not understand this neither does the world understand it (as is obvious) which is why IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THEY BE TOLD OF IT by a teacher or preacher or even just a believer (Scripture says every believer is supposed to TELL IT to EVERYONE THEY CAN because the END IS SOON and there will be atime when there will be a FAMINE IN THE LAND for the word of GOD and they will NOT HEAR then at all )
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.



PS the seed has to be planted in order for it to recieve water in order for it to grow ....it is those who believe who are sent to PLANT THAT SEED (By telling them about Jesus and how they can come to know him etc) .......reading the word praying and seeking ....WATERS that seed and God then gives it the increase to grow......read the parable of the sower to get a better understanding of this .....


[edit on 16-4-2009 by Simplynoone]

Well, back in the old days, you actually used to be able to buy an Indulgence from the Church, which would basically cover you for any particular sin you might have committed. It was all proper and above board, and a lot more honest in some respects than the implied forgiveness that you get these days.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Badmedia [Notice it says you will know, not that someone will tell you and so forth. Can't be told, must be experienced]

I would only ask you one question .....if this were true then why would the apostles (not just them but everyone who they told about Jesus and believed) be told to go into all the world and preach the gospel to all men everywhere ?

How can they know about Jesus and what he did and why he did it unless they first HEAR OF IT ?

Because the father is within. I didn't learn from the bible, I didn't learn from any man. I learned from the father and the holy spirit.

Numbers 12
6And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

8With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

When I experienced this, I had no idea the bible said it. I had no idea Jesus said what he did at all. When I seen the father within me and understood all that I understand now, I had no idea the bible said it. I had no idea Jesus said it, I didn't even know it existed in this world at all. I thought I was literally going crazy at first, not to mention the "why me" and so on. Why do I know this, but nobody else seems too etc.

And when I learned, I learned in understanding and wisdom. Nothing said - go follow Jesus, go pick up a bible. But I did find these things shortly after and was literally amazed at what it said. Don't think that is coincidence.

So I know the bible and things aren't actually needed. I still like them, but I also understand it in a different way than others. The bible is very useful to me because it helps me put things I understand into words that are more "mainstream". Like with John 14:20, I didn't say the father is within and so forth, I said - I am god, and I am arguing with myself. I was only recognizing the father within me when I said that, but people only ever focused on the "I am god" part, not realizing I was saying it's not only in me, but in all etc. So I find John 14:20 to be a much better way of saying the same thing.

To plant a seed in someone is to make them ask questions to themselves. To make them wonder about something. To which they will start to ask question, and when they ask they receive(water). As they recieve then the plant(understanding and wisdom) begins to grow. The only true church is within a person, present in both heaven and earth and is made up of wisdom and understanding, the thing the father says is more valuable than any choice gold and so forth. This is also like showing someone a door, but they have to walk through it.

As you know, I'm all about planting such seeds and things. The reason I object to the church and such, is because they take it further than that and turned themselves into authority figures, where they have none. Where as Jesus gave the people understanding, authority figures tell people what to accept and say, which is to keep them ignorant. As I have told you many times, you can sit around and repeat 1+1=2 all day long and be technically correct, but the point of 1+1=2 is to know how to add. And authority feeds memory, not intelligence(adding).

To sin means to make a mistake. To repent means to fix that mistake. If you look in John:20 you will see it mentions being able to forgive sins. That does NOT at all mean some guy can say "you are forgiven" and that is it. It says they have the holy spirit and with that you can show someone the mistake they have made, and how to fix it. And then that person can apply the understanding provided to them and when they do that, then they have repented. Then they have fixed their mistake. And then they are automatically forgiven because they will no longer make that mistake.

That some man can just say "you are forgiven" and such is just a manipulation. If I go to a priest, confess my sin to them and that priests says - you are forgiven, I haven't repented. I haven't done anything but gotten someone to tell me what I wanted to hear. Only if I recognize the errors of my ways and change them do I repent, and I don't need some priest for that, unless he can show me the errors of my ways.

If it was true as you present it, then why did Jesus lie to the rich man? Why didn't Jesus just tell him - wait til I'm dead, believe me and all is good? No, he said - GO DO THIS. Go walk the path.

And being able to show someone the errors of their ways is why it requires the holy spirit. The holy spirit is said to speak in tongues. Which means it can speak in ways that someone can understand. Because you can sit there and tell someone their errors all day long, but if they can not see and understand why it is an error(blind) then it's useless because they can not fix it.

Just because you have the bible and you can listen to the words doesn't mean you hear them. Jesus said let those with ears hear, do you think the majority of people had no ears?

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

But you tell me the scribes(bible) are the authority, and not the people? As if to say because they can listen to the words of the bible, they have heard the father? I just know better.

That whole chapter of Matthew 7 specifically talks about what I am talking about. Specifically.

www.biblegateway.com...

I like the bible a good bit. I stick up for it a good bit, and quote from it a good bit. But all things need to be in their proper places, and upgrading the bible into the word of god is not it's proper place, upgrading those who speak of it into positions of authority is not the proper place. And because they are not in their proper places, then the "pharisees sit in the seat of moses".

Answer me this question. Which is the more narrow path? The one the church gives, where the rich man gets into heaven? Or the one I speak of where you actually have to follow and live by the example of Jesus?

[edit on 16-4-2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by Nohup
Well, back in the old days, you actually used to be able to buy an Indulgence from the Church, which would basically cover you for any particular sin you might have committed. It was all proper and above board, and a lot more honest in some respects than the implied forgiveness that you get these days.

Well we all know it cannot be bought .....as the Lord cares not for money ..
And no amount of money will keep you from hell or judgement ...and mankind knows this ........

There is a PRICE for sin if you do not believe that that price was paid by GOD HIMSELF through Jesus Christ then YOU STILL OWE THAT BILL .....and the wages of sin is death ...Jesus paid that price for you .....he paid the ransom for you to not have to go to the grave (as in death and hell) >....now your choice is to accept this or not .......if you do accept that he paid that price THEN CERTAINLY you would be appreciative of that enough to START WALKING THE WAY THAT LEADS TO LIFE (Which Jesus spells out over and over again on HOW TO DO THAT ) >.................it cannot be bought or earned .....it has to be attained THROUGH OBEDIENCE TO GOD >.
The way is to accept JESUS as that ransom and accept him into YOUR HEART MIND and SOUL and to WALK THE WALK HE WALKED >......
You would not want to do anything else anyway if you TRULY BELIEVED IN JESUS >.........................you would NATURALLY turn and go the other way in which you were used to going (Repenting means to have a change of mind heart and soul and turn and go the opposite way you were going)

I think that REPENTING is a key word here ..
If you are truly repenting you will NOT BE THE SAME PERSON from that day on ....
I think this is what happens to those who just believe verses those who believe and actually change their ways ..................

Which is why just believing is not enough ..if you believe you will HAVE FRUITS OF REPENTENCE
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:


FRUIT
1) fruit

a) the fruit of the trees, vines, of the fields

b) the fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity

2) that which originates or comes from something, an effect, result

a) work, act, deed

b) advantage, profit, utility

c) praises, which are presented to God as a thank offering

d) to gather fruit (i.e. a reaped harvest) into life eternal (as into a granary), is used in fig. discourse of those who by their labours have fitted souls to obtain eternal life


Repentance
1) a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done


There is an ACTION that follows a belief if one truly does believe ...
Faith without works is dead ..

reply to post by badmedia



A seed was planted at some point in time in your life by SOMEONE WHO TOLD YOU ABOUT JESUS otherwise how did you even know there was a Jesus ?
If men had not been TELLING IT since the birth of Christ and written it down for us to know it too how would any of us know ? (Only the OT had been written prior to that and those who knew the OT did not understand either which was why Jesus sent the apostles out to help them UNDERSTAND about Jesus Christ ) ...........................Jesus planted that seed in them ...they planted that seed in others since then ..which is why we know about it today ..etc etc ........

And yes we are all born by the spirit of God (he breathed the breath of life in us ) ...but I would just ask you if everyone was born again by spirit from birth then why would Jesus and all that he did have been necessary ? Why would the apostles have had to be born again at Pentecost ?why did they need to recieve the Holy Ghost if they already had it ?