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Christianity is an Imaginary "Sin Insurance" Racket

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posted on Apr, 17 2009 @ 12:30 PM
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Originally posted by sir_chancealot
One of the core tenants of communism is atheism, correct? (And don't even TRY and pull the "No True Scotsman" fallacy on this discussion.)


Most communist wars were not fought in the name of Atheism. They were fought for political gain and human subversion, kind of like the Church.




posted on Apr, 17 2009 @ 01:49 PM
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Badmedia ...I would really like it if you would seriously address these passages in JOHN (Which is your favorite book) ....and give me your interpretation then of what he was saying and meaning in those verses ....

You said this
[So you are saying that god couldn't make himself known with the bible? Are you serious? Have you actually thought about what you are repeating? Well then tell me - how did the people get it the first time? See, the problem with wanting to call the bible the word of god and then pretend that it's the only way one can learn is - what is the source for those who wrote them down in the first place.]


Yes they heard from God before anyone wrote anything down ..but do you recall how they heard from God ? Through angel visits,Dreams,PROPHETS who dreamed or heard from angels .......After Moses God even came to the people directly from a mountain and spoke from that mountain didnt he ?(at least according to the word) ...............(Moses as you pointed out heard directly from God he was about the only one who did in those days too ...mainly because he was A CHOSEN VESSEL by God representing and symbolic of what Jesus would do in the end times ..in a way leading his people out of modern Egypt (which represents what the whole world is ..in bondage to Egypt ....(the System of man )


But over and over again in the OT it says the reason why they could not abstain from wickedness is because they did not retain GOD in their hearts or minds or even memory (they forgot God by carrying on their own merry way ) ..........due to their NATURE (sin nature) and due to the fact they needed more like something tangible to worship which was why they created statues etc ....which is just another NATURE of man ...they need to see it and touch it or to them it isnt real (men are so unspiritual due to them being so fleshly and carnal minded) and this keeps them from hearing God .
Anyway if you were really interested in that you would do your own reading from the OT ...and see it clearly ...but thats your choice ..........
The whole point of Jesus and his death etc was so he could send the HOLY SPIRIT from GOD to man to LIVE IN THEM not just outside of them ....
Notice your favorite quote in John where it says this .
John 14 :17 for he dwelleth WITH you, and SHALL(Not is in you now but SHALL) be IN you


So back to my question to you .
What is this all about then ?
From JOHN >.
Jhn 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Jhn 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life

Jesus told them they NEITHER HEARD his VOICE at anytime ...NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE ....and THEY DID NOT HAVE HIS WORD IN THEM and who he sent (The prophets of God ) they did not believe them ....Search the scriptures (WHICH SCRIPTURES ?) ...for in them you think you have eternal life and THEY (WhO ?) those who SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES are THEY who TESTIFY OF ME (WHOS THE ME ? YES JESUS) >...............


So what was Jesus saying in all of that ? and what is your opinion then of the interpretation of it ? If not what I have been saying all along to you ?


Also
Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
((((notice it says WHO THE WORLD CANNOT RECIEVE ....if it is in everyone already in the world why did he say that to them >?
Also notice it says FOR HE DWELLETH with them (Jesus was with them telling them this so it is himself he was talking about that was dwelling with them at that time ..notice the next verse AND SHALL (not is but SHALL) be IN YOU >>>>>IN YOU >>>when ? next verses answer it ....AT THAT DAY ..at WHAT DAY ? at Pentecost ....when it was GIVEN from Christ once he ascended BACK TO THE FATHER .....

Jhn 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
(((((((He tells them right here once he leaves though he will not leave them comfortless ...he says I (Who ? Yes Jesus) will come to them ...(THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT) ..........
Jhn 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
(((((((The world would not see Jesus NO MORE after that time but the APOSTLES would why >? Because they would have the Holy Spirit then and would have him IN THEM not WITH THEM anymore but IN THEM (JESUS Had to die first and get back to the father in order to send HIS spirit to come LIVE IN THEM ) >..)))))))))))Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Back to the verses ...

Jhn 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
(((At what day >? At the day of Pentecost when he sends his HOLY SPIRIT then you will know THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT that JESUS is IN THE FATHER and they would be in JESUS and JESUS WOULD BE IN THEM >>.through the HOLY SPIRIT ..............

Then the Holy Spirit spoke to THE APOSTLES and many more once they RECIEVED IT ....then they were told by the HOLY SPIRIT to WRITE WHAT THEY SEE ....FEEL >>>HEAR >....so others will know and be introduced to JESUS (Thats really all a prophet or believer is called to do is INTRODUCE them to Jesus and share his message ....thats what a messenger does ..Messengers wrote down their experiences and passed it down to us through the word of God .......
Which they lived ...read about (OT) saw for themselves and the Holy Spirit which they recieved would also bring EVERYTHING to their remembrance...so they could remember everything that happened when they DID write it down ...(since it was written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit anyway)
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Again what scriptures are we supposed to search to study ourselves approved before God ?
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.






[edit on 17-4-2009 by Simplynoone]



posted on Apr, 17 2009 @ 03:48 PM
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An insurance contract implies an event(s) initiated by a second party (act of God, crime, etc.) that you want to mitigate the financial risk of by the payment of a premium to a third party who will monetize the results of that event via a payout of cash should the event occur. It's a rather obtuse example you've chosen but here goes nuttin'. You picked it.

So, you're the first party. God is presumably the second party. And the church is the third party.

Event = judgment by God (for your many, rampant, and habitual sins)
Premium = paying tithes (going to church is secondary, like advertising)
Payout = eternal life (can't be cash, since we're dead and can't spend it)

You do realize this has nothing to do with ancient or modern Christianity or Judaism, right? Nobody except the most garishly overly stereotyped Hollywood character Catholic would find themselves in this kind of situation. Everyone knows that no man on this earth will intercede for us on the basis of a premium that we've paid to the church. Justification by works is not the underpinning of either Judaism or Christianity. While a corrupted church flirted with this for financial gain several hundred years ago, it's since been fully repudiated.

I would suggest that atheism's allegiance to all things 'state' is a lot closer to the mark, where assignment of resources to an abstract goodness is rewarded with material success.

So, I declare your analogy of church attendance, tithing, and the like to be "like an insurance racket" wholly worthless.

Perhaps you've missed Galatians 5 which talks about the deeds of the flesh and the fruits of the spirit? When a person accepts Christ they not only confess and repent, they also OBEY and this only through the power of the Holy Spirit. I've yet to hear of a Christian ponying up a premium to keep his policy current! haha

Anyway, stick a fork in this post, it's done.



posted on Apr, 17 2009 @ 04:13 PM
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reply to post by Simplynoone
 


You do realize those aren't the words of Jesus, but the words of the father. The father I know, Jesus I do not. But I know the way of Jesus and so forth, because I know the father.

Although Jesus would say if I know the father, then I know him and vice versa. And that I agree with.

A bit confusing I understand. But I know "Jesus" well, I just do not "know" the person Jesus.

Where as many people may think the flesh or a "name" is what makes a person, that is not the case for me. To me, what makes a person is their actions and what they say etc.

I'll stay in John 14 since we are mostly talking about that chapter here.



6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


You'll notice he says no man cometh to the father but through me. He is not talking about "him" in the flesh specifically. He is saying you can only come to the father by the truth and the way. Which should be made clear in the later verses I quote before where it says the words you hear are the fathers.

As I said before, it is not "Jesus" I recognize in the verses, it is the father which speaks through him that I know.

Verse 12 is why I call Christians anti-christ.



posted on Apr, 17 2009 @ 04:24 PM
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Originally posted by Simplynoone
Badmedia ...I would really like it if you would seriously address these passages in JOHN (Which is your favorite book) ....and give me your interpretation then of what he was saying and meaning in those verses ....


Sorry, your formatting sucks in your posts and they are hard to read. I've been a bit short on time lately and didn't have time to respond.

Your posts would be much easier to digest and such if you would start using [ quote] and [ ex] tags. It wouldn't be very hard for you, you already do your own formatting in the same manner. I usually wade through it, but it would be alot easier and such on other people if you used formating. I can show you how to do it if you want to U2U me, easier than you think and you'll get better responses from people.

Anyway. Do you not see me quote from the bible much? Do you not see me pointing out the wisdom in the bible? Do you not see me sticking up for the bible when people call it all fairy tales? If so, then is it not obvious that I believe it has it's place and purpose?

Such is not the issue, the issue is if it is in it's proper place. That is why I mentioned the building before. All the parts of a building have their roles and things they do. But if you fail to put those parts in their proper places, then your building will fall. Only if you put those parts in their proper places does the building show up. The foundation of the building must be at the bottom and so forth. You don't put the roof under the foundation etc.

So the issue is where you place the scripture / bible. And when you put it as the "word of god" and put it into such authority, then you have put it in as a replacement for something else, and then you have put your foundation above your roof.

In effect, you are saying that because he mentions the scriptures, then it means the roof goes below the foundation. Rather than seeing that both the roof and the foundation have their proper places.

[edit on 17-4-2009 by badmedia]



posted on Apr, 17 2009 @ 04:25 PM
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The point is....even if any secret society takes over the earth, they still need some sort of 'laws' that are similar to Christianity to hold their own members accountable for their actions.

You even cannot have 50,000 elitists and one of them does perverted things to a daughter/son/brother/sister to another member without rebounding charges of some sort. They would still find some basis on some of the 10 commandments.

The only difference lies in 1. how that will come about and 2. how when it has, how much easier to give judgement.

explaining 1.

how that comes about- right now we are learning day by day that things we do are being video taped somewhere, somehow. It is almost god-like. They know where we go and when and for what purpose in almost every way.

is that a good thing? or a bad thing? If you want your privacy it is bad, but if your own child was kidnapped and this technology was used to find his/her kidnapper you would be the first to sign up to turn that surveillence on.

explaining 2. Giving judgement- it makes it much easier and faster for a court of peers to give judgement if all of your movements are tracked down to the minute details.

Christianity will be USED to enforce these day to day occurances as law...but in the end they will be used as blackmail then eventual manditory public services. Big brother is only as strong as his father's influence...Big brothers are the ones that usually beat you up.



posted on Apr, 17 2009 @ 04:36 PM
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reply to post by suzque66
 


Yes, but what you mention is and has already been done. It was also done in the time of Jesus and he addresses it. I think these verses are a bit harder than most to understand.

Can't think of the exact verses, but it's where he scolds the pharisees for not killing the child that curses their parents. Now, in that he wasn't saying they should be doing that, but he was using hyperbole to show that while the Pharisees claim they do things to uphold the "law of God", they really aren't because they pick and choose which ones are to be followed. They use selective enforcement and use them for their own purposes.

So that is the way it's done, always has been. All the factors Jesus dealt with then still exist. Just under different names and context, but the same basic function.

www.biblegateway.com...



1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,


Chapter goes on, but you can see what you speak about is true and has been done for a long time.


[edit on 17-4-2009 by badmedia]



posted on Apr, 17 2009 @ 06:01 PM
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reply to post by Ichabod
 


I wasn't referring to anything monetary. It's the BELIEF of having one's sins paid-in-full or "redeemed" through a blood sacrifice that amounts to an (imaginary) "insurance" policy... IMO.



posted on Apr, 17 2009 @ 06:39 PM
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I like debating God's existence, it shows the Bibles' points. In the Hebrew Bible all it says is " In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the Earth." It never said anything about it taking days. King James added that in there because it was a divinely inspired translation and was edited to Shakespeare, thus the THOU thee language and the erroneous writing style. Why? It is encoded and a few extra things were added to fit the missing pieces that would be left out of English. God can do anything He wills. A Divine entity like God would not be able to write a book through the prophets if it was not encoded. That would be the by-product of Him simply writing this marvelous book. It wouldn't really need purpose, if it simply is because a Divine being wrote a book. As for why He doesn't come out and show Himself is a stupid question. He exists outside the universe, and that's why he came as various forms and in Jesus Christ. He was who he claimed to be. Man is not greater than God. That is the point; the entire 6,000 years of man's government is coming to an end. Then it will be Holy governance, and there will be no need to kill, steal, etc. You don't have to believe in what we tell you, but at the same time I believe in everything you base your foundations on. You're entitled to believe anything you want, and that's the way we should discuss things. Things like divinity cannot be explained by science, but science sure shows lots of design. 2+2=4. E=MC squared. These are the rules of the universe that have been there since the moment of the big bang. We simply found them to be true through our understanding. So you could say the universe was meant to be figured out, and God is enjoying man trying to figure it out, and the ones that have already know. Ask yourself, do we wake up on this perfectly cosmic wonder we call Earth every day and get on websites to debate the existence of a Great Sky Fairy? So what if there is a being that sees and knows all. It's not scary to me if He's offering to be anyone's friend through an introduction of Himself in a book. Nothing forbid there be any magic to this beautiful planet. Nothing forbid the Christians may be right. Why is space-time allowing me to exist and type on this keyboard in this moment in time? If the universe were random, would the keyboard and me not exist because the molecular structure of both would never come together with order? The universe is WAY TOO orderly and amazing for it not to be gazed at. It doesn't take a genius, an athiest, or a Christian to see at least that right?



posted on Apr, 17 2009 @ 06:42 PM
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reply to post by watchtheashes
 


You sound like a person that can answer the question I can't get an answer to:

Why should we be following the campfire tales of semi-literate Bronze Age goatherders? Or the llama herders, or the yak herders or the manatee herders?



posted on Apr, 17 2009 @ 06:57 PM
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We shouldn't have to. That's the point. Christians are just trying to say: Hey, maybe we're right. Atheists are trying to say: Hey maybe we're right. That's the beauty of everything in a strange way. We have the ability unlike other mammals to comprehend the design of the Universe. We also have the ability to reject or embrace God. Even the Bible says God gave men a choice. Follow me or don't. Free will is yours. It also says to have the Christians preach to those who don't believe. From a standpoint like yours it shouldn't be hard to say that the Bible is at least a book of wisdom and poetry, regardless of it's origin. Anyone can take a page out of that book, much like anyone can take a page from anyone else's book. I wish both sides could just come together someday and talk it out rationally. Human nature does not allow for that obviously. Manners are nice. Nice is manners. Instead of attacking each other let's open up. I like other people's viewpoints, because that let's me compare mine to theirs, and they can do the same to mine. My viewpoint should be obvious, but I didn't say you guys were wrong at all. I just said what I think is behind this "system of things." It's impossible not to get aggressive throughout life, that's what makes us human. Make your own conclusions and listen to everyone, unless they are just plain loony. We have a right to practice religion, as much as anyone has a right to not practice anything but with conclusive proof.

To the believer, no proof is necessary. To the non-believer, no proof is possible. That's how it goes for anything really. You could believe, for example, that the Easter Bunny showed up to your house last night and tried to rape you. Non-believers of your story would say where is your proof. They would demand his semen and his hairs to analyze. I know that's a stretch in itself, but you see the point guys?



posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 12:37 AM
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@simplynoone Great post with solid information.

To everyone else who says that there is no Elohim or Yahushua one vers wraps it all up perfectly. "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no Elohim. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." Psalm 14:1

Everyone who has ever lived knows that he is real. Even satan and his demons know. Lying to yourself hurts nobody but you.



posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 07:00 AM
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Originally posted by lyyhtsource
@simplynoone Great post with solid information.

To everyone else who says that there is no Elohim or Yahushua one vers wraps it all up perfectly. "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no Elohim. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." Psalm 14:1

Everyone who has ever lived knows that he is real. Even satan and his demons know. Lying to yourself hurts nobody but you.


Nice, very nice. The BuyBull, written by men, says there's a god, because if they didn't say that they'd have to get their tails out of the temple and work for a living. How does the words of men prove the existence of a god?



posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 07:12 AM
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reply to post by Dean Goldberry
 


That's why you make no sense in your assertion. You can't have an 'imaginary' insurance racket. Either there is real risk or there isn't, either there is real valuation of the loss or their isn't. If it was imaginary, then brilliant folks such as yourself would have figured it out long ago, written a book about it, sold a zillion copies, and the world would be freed from this terribly unfair system.

Again, your example has nothing to do with Christian or Jewish doctrine. If you're getting your understanding of God and worship from Hollywood, go someplace else, they're in it to sell tickets. Be suspicious of them.



posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 07:45 AM
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Originally posted by Ichabod
reply to post by Dean Goldberry
 


That's why you make no sense in your assertion. You can't have an 'imaginary' insurance racket. Either there is real risk or there isn't, either there is real valuation of the loss or their isn't. If it was imaginary, then brilliant folks such as yourself would have figured it out long ago, written a book about it, sold a zillion copies, and the world would be freed from this terribly unfair system.

Again, your example has nothing to do with Christian or Jewish doctrine. If you're getting your understanding of God and worship from Hollywood, go someplace else, they're in it to sell tickets. Be suspicious of them.



Would it be clearer if the subject line said: Christianity is an "(Imaginary) Sin Insurance" Racket? To be more verbose, sin is a construct of humans, not any gods, so you can't insure your afterlife by providing priests with a way to avoid working for a living.



posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 09:28 AM
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reply to post by Gawdzilla
 



You sound like a person that can answer the question I can't get an answer to: Why should we be following the campfire tales of semi-literate Bronze Age goatherders? Or the llama herders, or the yak herders or the manatee herders?

Again, with your limited, closed, and childish perspective on things, you have already made "conclusions" about things and you live by them as if they are fact. Lots of compassion......

Anyway, Jesus/Bible talks about universalities that are timeless. Whether we were herding goats 2,00 years ago, now, or when we have A.I. and flying cars 2,000 years from now. There is such a thing as timeless universalities.

For example, Love, emotions, hatred, war, friendship, morals, philosophy, God, marriage, ideals, lust/sex, childish/grown up, these are all lessons and topics covered in the Bible all of things that have never changed and will be this way for perhaps thousands of years to come ....if we dont blow ourselves up first.

DUde, how old are you? Who taught you all of your perspectives? I mean wow!!!!



posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 09:31 AM
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reply to post by dominicus
 


"Again, with your limited, closed, and childish perspective on things, you have already made "conclusions" about things and you live by them as if they are fact. Lots of compassion......"

Your delusions power your language skills, obviously. Your post didn't reply to my post, you just dodged it. Typical theist thinking.



posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 09:53 AM
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Originally posted by Gawdzilla
To be more verbose, sin is a construct of humans, not any gods, so you can't insure your afterlife by providing priests with a way to avoid working for a living.


That isn't true. To sin is to make a mistake. To know right from wrong and what is the mistake is to have wisdom. To say sin is a construct of humans only is to say that god has no wisdom.

And the commandments, and what Jesus calls the laws of the prophets is based on wisdom and understanding. Love god and then also understanding treat others as you would want to be treated.

Pretty simple, look at the world around you, what kind of change do you want to see? Then be that change. But seek knowledge and wisdom so that the change you make is for the better. For example, how can you live in a world that doesn't have theft if you steal? You can't and won't. Thus, do not steal. Do not murder, and so forth. All things based on what? Not imposing on another persons free will. If you do those things, then obviously you can not live in a world without it.

And all you have to do is put yourself in the other persons shoes to see if you are doing that. Love one another as yourself.

There's a reason why pretty much all religions carry something similar to this at it's core. Because it's wisdom and understanding.

Read this chapter, says all this. How does god reward? with gold? No, with wisdom and understanding which is much more valuable.

www.biblegateway.com...



posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 09:55 AM
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reply to post by badmedia
 


"That isn't true. To sin is to make a mistake. To know right from wrong and what is the mistake is to have wisdom. To say sin is a construct of humans only is to say that god has no wisdom."

Good, you got my point perfectly.



posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 10:40 AM
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Originally posted by Simplynoone
Yes they heard from God before anyone wrote anything down ..but do you recall how they heard from God ? Through angel visits,Dreams,PROPHETS who dreamed or heard from angels .......After Moses God even came to the people directly from a mountain and spoke from that mountain didnt he ?(at least according to the word) ...............(Moses as you pointed out heard directly from God he was about the only one who did in those days too ...mainly because he was A CHOSEN VESSEL by God representing and symbolic of what Jesus would do in the end times ..in a way leading his people out of modern Egypt (which represents what the whole world is ..in bondage to Egypt ....(the System of man )

But over and over again in the OT it says the reason why they could not abstain from wickedness is because they did not retain GOD in their hearts or minds or even memory (they forgot God by carrying on their own merry way ) ..........due to their NATURE (sin nature) and due to the fact they needed more like something tangible to worship which was why they created statues etc ....which is just another NATURE of man ...they need to see it and touch it or to them it isnt real (men are so unspiritual due to them being so fleshly and carnal minded) and this keeps them from hearing God .
Anyway if you were really interested in that you would do your own reading from the OT ...and see it clearly ...but thats your choice ..........
The whole point of Jesus and his death etc was so he could send the HOLY SPIRIT from GOD to man to LIVE IN THEM not just outside of them ....
Notice your favorite quote in John where it says this .
John 14 :17 for he dwelleth WITH you, and SHALL(Not is in you now but SHALL) be IN you


Bit more time now to answer in more detail.

You are born with a soul, and thus you are born of the father already. You always have been, you always will be(unless the soul dies).

You show this yourself, god did not "leave" them, they "forgot" god. We still have.

What changes is only a matter of perspective. What you "see" and "hear" changes. Nothing physical changes, but your understanding of things does. When this happens, then you know and understand the father is within you. When this happens, you are "born again", because then you have remembered. Then you know who your father really is, and then you know who you are, and then you know why death is not real, why not to worry about it, and so forth. Because these things you then know are things which change your understanding and perspective. You have then knocked and "opened doors". And once that door is open, no man will be able to shut it. Once your perspective has been changed with the understanding, it's yours.



Proverbs 8
22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:


If the father was not in you, then you wouldn't have a soul or consciousness. It's like the footprints in the sand poem, when he notices only 1 set of footprints, and wonders where god was, and the footprints were gods, not his because he was being carried. He did not see, but that doesn't mean he was not there.

The father still speaks to people in those ways, we just call them crazy if they say it, and some of them probably are, and some people will say it as long as you will believe it. Can't really replace your experiences with the word of another.

If you really want to get down to it, the bible is really a crutch for those who still seek approval from men and this world. If you look at the passages you quoted in John, he is talking about people who don't believe him and don't hear the father(37,38). Saying - well if you don't believe me, look even the scriptures say such things(when understood properly).

If you already know the father, then you don't even need the bible to know the truth. Because you just get it from the original source, rather than by someone thousands of years ago. I didn't learn from Jesus or the bible, I seen what I learned from the father being repeated to me in the words of Jesus. I recognize the father within Jesus. But I didn't hear the father within him, nor did I even really know it was the father within him until I knew the father.



((((notice it says WHO THE WORLD CANNOT RECIEVE ....if it is in everyone already in the world why did he say that to them >?


This is again about perception, about seeking, about knocking and opening doors. You have to open the door to something before you can receive it, but the people have closed their doors. The memory of god and truth and such things are doors within you that are opened to receive them. You have to knock on those doors and open them etc, seek out truth, etc. Again, open those doors, and no man can close them because they are within.



Proverbs 8
7For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

12I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

13The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

14Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.


17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.



[edit on 18-4-2009 by badmedia]




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