Support Abortion? Watch this video and please defend your decisions...

supporting life is a fundamental pillar of civilization. How can anyone adjudicate when life begins? Maybe I should start a political movement called "delayed abortionists for choice" we will chose to do extremely late term abortions on oxygen thief. these abortions may be performed on fetuses found external to the womb in excess of 1300 weeks old.

I mean if woman have the right to choose so should men.
And if it is not a human then it (the fetus) cannot be related to any one. Further more, the value of a few cells and chemicals (just on a larger scale) is of little value.

I think this is a great idea.

reply to post by skeptic1


I couldn't agree more.

However, I believe that this conversation will NEVER take place, as long as one group continues to deny the very basic fact, that during an Abortion, A HUMAN LIFE is destroyed.

Agreeing to that premise does not mean that one has LOST the argument.
It merely means that we can actually be on the same page when we discuss all these issues.

I only offer apologizes to those who have somehow found this thread to be an attack. That was, and is, not my point.

Edit again to add that I was accidentally knocked off the writer-fighter list, and my apologies to the mods for assuming they were upset, In reality I know they are more balanced than that.

[edit on 31-3-2009 by jasonjnelson]

reply to post by skeptic1


well we could start with all of the families waiting for children on adoption lists and we could make people responsible for there own DECSIONS, I know its a crazy concept.

and don't start on the rape bit, first off lets cut the emotional BS. What percentage of rapes can be avoided by being responsible and not
a. drinking heavily
b. dressing in provocative way (keep reading and you will see the other side)
c. giving a little bit of fore thought to your night/ weekend/ vacation and arrange rides and shaparones.

D. support a culture that does not treat woman as objects, and property of men
E. support a culture that truly supports the equal treatment of all people (how many rappers could get rich with fat men running around in speedos?)
F. hold all people responsible for thier decisions.

Okay so on point b. what is the purpose really of wearing what could be considered lingerie? It's to get people to look at you and desire your body. If that makes you feel empowered, or good about yourself then that is a result of the attention you get.


Now of course this IS NOT going to eliminate rape. Rape is a horrible crime that can occur at any moment and from any situation. I fully understand and agree that a spouse can rape their spouse and that their are true sexual predators out there that will attack people with out provocation.
But! that does not mean that some if not a large amount of rape can be avoided.

Then you get into incest. That I am on the fence about.

Never the less.

What other reasoning do people have?
Ohh, the baby is retarded. Well I think that is a pretty lame excuse, and it goes back to the fact that every person has the right to life. other wise we get into eugenics.

The only reason that I agree that abortion is acceptable is in a case where the life of the mother is at stake. Not her well being but her life. Just as the standards should be applied for a baby that has been born.

Most reasons for abortion are selfish! at the core most people who get pregnant and then get an abortion do so because of selfish reasons. Now I know that is not a pretty statement, but if you give me a reason other than the exceptions that I noted; such as unprovoked rape, life threatening condition....) I believe that I can boil it down to a woman or man (in forcing a woman through emotional abuse) placing their own wants above that of another person.

Before flaming my response you need to do some real objective thinking about what I am saying. Just as you will make me support my position I will make you support your own.

Abortion is likely the result of other bad decisions!

reply to post by Aermacchi


Those of us, on whatever side, that have personal experience with this issue and are not just arguing from a position that fits an agenda do want to find common ground. It's not a bad thing to genuinely feel for another life, and it's easy to see how life is just not fair sometimes. Just like watching those wildlife videos where male lions attack and kill cubs because they are not his offspring, you want to jump in and save the defenseless babies. Just about any good person does, but nature's ways are often brutal and completely out of our control. No matter what religion you subscribe to, you would have a hard time denying that your god works through nature.

The important thing I think, to making your opinion on this issue heard by those who don't already agree with you, is to not come off as one of those pushy, angry faces in the parking lot yelling at people. That will automatically get a defensive response from anybody, and the discussion will just go south from there. Also, try not to automatically assume that everybody values life the same, they don't.

Originally posted by 27jd
reply to post by Aermacchi

 

Those of us, on whatever side, that have personal experience with this issue and are not just arguing from a position that fits an agenda do want to find common ground. It's not a bad thing to genuinely feel for another life, and it's easy to see how life is just not fair sometimes. Just like watching those wildlife videos where male lions attack and kill cubs because they are not his offspring, you want to jump in and save the defenseless babies. Just about any good person does, but nature's ways are often brutal and completely out of our control. No matter what religion you subscribe to, you would have a hard time denying that your god works through nature.

This is true for Nature. I thought that our civilization; or the ability to see that an adult killing a baby is wrong AND doing something to stop / prevent such an atrocity, was what separated us from common apes? If you want to live by the laws of nature tell me where you live so I can have a go at killing of a weaker competitor for resources and take all of your stuff


Or we can all agree that we need to be better than animals and live with our competition.

Originally posted by irongunner
If you want to live by the laws of nature tell me where you live so I can have a go at killing of a weaker competitor for resources and take all of your stuff

I'm in Phoenix AZ. And assuming your competitor is weaker would be a classic mistake made in nature, make sure to bring your stuff though so the spoils will be equal.

Or we can all agree that we need to be better than animals and live with our competition.

We are animals. You can pretend youre better all day, but judging by your above post and your attempt to beat your chest, that would be a stretch.


[edit on 31-3-2009 by 27jd]

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage

Please show how the statements on this site are biased, can you debunk them? Can you prove that they are biased? Please produce the link to which site you refer to.

Do YOU see ONE even ONE instance where a Pro choice website is arguing against abortion? Those that have done so were advised to by anti abortion lobbyists who have made the argument quite clear that pro choice organiztions appear to be arguing for a choice with its own built in bias and the choice they argue to have is between a live or die option where the one who dies is not the one making the decision. The Bias in a live or die choice can not be rationalized for someone making the decsion for someone else to die so anyone making the argument for such choices without a more compelling reason than your studies would have you believe justifies it are moot.

Life and Death arguments are made on a case by case basis and why murder trials are not done by arbitration by a Judge but a Judge and a Jury case by case, juror by juror, judge by judge.

You arguing for an arbitrary criteria for those YOU think need to satisfy or refute statistics as if that qualifies anyone to justify the ultimate sacrifice of their own children in a paradoxically fallacious statistic because those that are not brought up in loving homes we assume are those that "Should" have been aborted at birth as if killing the babies make life better for simply by decreasing the incidence of negative reports on abuse of children. The paradox is we may never know the statistics that would otherwise alter those same statistics showing many to have had productive loving environments because those kids are GONE now.

This makes the study bias as it only purports to substantiate the statistics based on what happens with born children and not what could have of aborted babies had they not been.

If you want to make the argument that abortion can be justified as not only what should be a last resort after all other options are not technically, or medically feasible but make it the option of choice or the preffered option predicated on the statistics for adoptions that are not meeting the demand or exceed demand is not nor should it even be part of the argument. Saying there are too many babies needing to be adopted now for instance is not our fault and killing one more baby won't get that kid adopted any faster but it WILL lower one more statistic while raising yet another in a stat comparion between two equally distasteful alternatives.

Killing more and more will bring down the statistics you are using to a level where evetually you can't even use them against us as if they ever really mattered to us anyway.

The fact is most of us arguing against abortion are those who cannot fathom cannot conceive of the kind of constitution one must have to condone such a procedure being done much less perform one of these procedures. Even IF you had statistics that were overwhelmingly in favor of allowing this choice to be made it would still be inconceivable to the people you are trying to convince because unlike you,,

They simply wouldn't have the heart to do it much less argue for the right to be able to do it. I hope I never get that way.

You must know you are talking to people who will NEVER understand how anyone else could so asking them to agree with those who actively fight for the chance to have an option I have already shown is NOT an option to them is futile. They hate it, they see it as what it is and that is killing a baby and that is all they will ever see and to them their is simply

NO EXCUSE for it

Period




[edit on 31-3-2009 by Aermacchi]

Originally posted by 27jd
reply to post by Aermacchi

 

Those of us, on whatever side, that have personal experience with this issue and are not just arguing from a position that fits an agenda do want to find common ground. It's not a bad thing to genuinely feel for another life, and it's easy to see how life is just not fair sometimes. Just like watching those wildlife videos where male lions attack and kill cubs because they are not his offspring, you want to jump in and save the defenseless babies. Just about any good person does, but nature's ways are often brutal and completely out of our control. No matter what religion you subscribe to, you would have a hard time denying that your god works through nature.

The important thing I think, to making your opinion on this issue heard by those who don't already agree with you, is to not come off as one of those pushy, angry faces in the parking lot yelling at people. That will automatically get a defensive response from anybody, and the discussion will just go south from there. Also, try not to automatically assume that everybody values life the same, they don't.

Yep I saw that one about the lions and yeah,, it was hard for me to watch that stuff and probably is why I got no business in a thread like this just as I don't think people who sense of priorities put vanity about stretch marks coming before life and death decisions have no business in threads like this either.

At least I can feel a little more justified knowing my sense of values are not just skin deep saying if what makes a beautiful person is only skin deep then I want beautiful skin.

I know what you are saying though, these threads are usually pretty combative and in the end, Ill still want to save that kid from its mother but won't want to raise it and they will still kill it never knowing how having a child can bring out love for something, someone so intense and so deep you wouldn't otherwise known you were even capable of feeling.

I remember one of those documentary lion films, they were talking about the male and female lion where the female is built for hunting and the male is built for battle. Just to use the same analogy of the altruism of mothers and their young. It took 11 females to fight off this male from killing the young and still they couldn't stop it in the end.

You can use it to show the indifference nature has in such acts of killing our young but nature has a way of showing how hard we fight to keep them alive protected from those trying to kill them too.

Those eleven female lions exhibited the kind of love and protection we used to think all woman had hard coded on their hearts where the first line of defense for all children would be a guadian angel with that same heart of a lion and a relentless tireless resolve to protect their young from beasts built for battle. Someone we, or I anyway, used to think would die for and was why men were always expected to die for them, in any woman and children first situation like the titanic. We were to protect them so they could raise our young and we would pass on our name (DNA) etc.

That guardian angle's name was never important as it was always the same one, someone named mommy.

Things sure have changed ya know?

Maybe if we men went back to treating woman as something to die for,, we wouldn't be seeing them having to make choices they would rather die than be forced or compelled into having to make in a world where passing on our DNA isn't important but spreading our seed is and where it grows we want no part in defending much less protecting the moms that feed and clothe them.

Not all men are that way but one episode of Maury Povich and I wonder where it all started we got this far from civilized parents of fatheless children and murderous mothers and males built for battle not killing a thing while we defend nothing but the argument to protect something that isn't even our own from another we expect should protect what it is they didn't even want.

Nature hehe sure has a way with circular logic caring not who is right or wrong, lives or dies but only that the circle of life continues and like this thread and all its participants the argument rages on and nature doesn't care but for some reason,,

we do

Originally posted by Aermacchi
Nature hehe sure has a way with circular logic caring not who is right or wrong, lives or dies but only that the circle of life continues and like this thread and all its participants the argument rages on and nature doesn't care

Well, maybe the desire we have to stand up for the weak is nature's way of balancing the cruelty. Maybe it will be the desire to give life a chance that leads to the creation of a better option in the end. It's true that, aside from situations beyond a woman's control, it is selfish and wrong to have unprotected sex knowing you do not want a child, and counting on abortion if the act results in pregnancy. Accidents do happen, and personally i think it would be much better if more women were proactive in emergency contraception in those cases, instead of just hoping and allowing a fertilized egg to develop further before acting. Also, it would also be better if we men didn't gladly believe everytime a woman tells us she can't get pregnant, and wrap it up anyway...

[edit on 31-3-2009 by 27jd]

Bob Barker closed each taping of "The Price is Right" with a statement that should be applied to human beings as well:

"Help Control The Pet Population, Have Your Pets Spayed Or Neutered."

THERE IS YOUR ANSWER TO ALL THE PRO-LIFE AND PRO-CHOICE PEOPLE! SO QUIT BITCHING!

Once again, science and technological progression remedies an age old debate.

[edit on 31-3-2009 by LactoseIntolerant]

Originally posted by LactoseIntolerant
Bob Barker closed each taping of "The Price is Right" with a statement that should be applied to human beings as well:

"Help Control The Pet Population, Have Your Pets Spayed Or Neutered."

THERE IS YOUR ANSWER TO ALL THE PRO-LIFE AND PRO-CHOICE PEOPLE! SO QUIT BITCHING!

Once again, science and technological progression remedies an age old debate.

[edit on 31-3-2009 by LactoseIntolerant]

What and put planned parenthood out of the stem cell research business losing all those earmarked monies and all that profit?

No on your life! but on those who would have wanted that life just the same if they ever got the chance.

Your solution as simple as it is has been brought to the house and senate and it was fought by the plannedparent lobby who as I said before and continue to prove themselves to be, nothing more than a womb to tomb murder mill for money and rapsthebat,,

before you even ask,,

google it yourself

reply to post by Aermacchi


What do I type in the Google search bar? "Planned Parenthood lobby?" Send me a link to justify your claims.

reply to post by LactoseIntolerant


fathersforlife.org...
www.ago.state.ne.us... _id=10
This was in 2000, If Obama goes through with certain aspects of his live birth act, it will NOT be criminal(in court) to use live babies! If he repeals the Partial birth abortion, FULL term babies will be used.

In sum, federal law permits research or funding of research by the federal government using tissue from aborted human infants. However, this is limited to research on transplantation for therapeutic purposes. No research is permitted until the fetus is delivered from the mother and the child is dead. Abortion procedures may not be altered for purposes of the research if they increase risk to the mother or fetus. Direct payments for human fetal tissue are prohibited. Finally, the research must be conducted in accordance with State law.

About planned parenthood (From a pro-life site);
suewidemark.netfirms.com...
From a 'neutral' site;
health.howstuffworks.com...

Though that is a small percentage of Planned Parenthood's work, that 3 percent totaled 289,750 abortions in 2006, making Planned Parenthood the largest provider of abortions in the United States.

Planned Parenthood defends a woman's right to an abortion without unnecessary obstacles, such as a mandatory waiting period or a parental notification requirement.

All patients have the right to privacy, particularly from the government.

"From the government." While I agree with privacy, it also makes for lack of oversight (watchdog!)of a government funded program!
Who really knows what's going on?

Some women in one of my links felt PRESSURED by planned parenthood to have their abortion, 'allegedly'.

I honestly think with the modern advances in the medical fields, vasectomies and female contraceptives (i.e. IUD's) should be much more accessible. It will answer to both sides of the abortion issue. And for science's sake, who would have a child--especially during these economic hardships?

Abstinence isn't the answer. From a physiological standpoint, we all have hormones that trigger sexual impulses. Sex is natural as breathing. The prominence of virtility (regarding both sexes) must be acknowledged, but should be not ignored in order to solve the abortion debate. We all want some,basically (unintentionally leaving out gays and lesbians in this post, my apologizes).

It is not shocking to find that an american organization (liberal would be an appropriate label too) such as Planned Parenthood has turned the "women's rights" mantra into a commodity. That's America for you, plain and simple. Democracy, liberty, freedom my ass. It is and always has been about money, capital. It is a place where every single entity is being turned into a profit opportunity--and hence what is causing the economic collapse as I type...

And another thing I have to ask: why do some of the pro-life supporters out there believe that life begins at conception?

Perhaps it is purely religious rhetoric or maybe I am just severely misinterpreting that statement. But if everyone committed coitus, then surely we are all sinners!

Do they not understand in order to procreate, two gametes (sex cells) from both the male and female must fuse together? The act of intercourse itself does not necessarily imply pregnancy. Sperm can live up to 72 hours within the vagina! The sperm cells then have to travel the treacherous journey through the fallopian tubes in order to find an egg to fertilize. So in conclusion, it could very well take three days AFTER sex to get pregnant.

Utilize science! Science isn't a religion but rather applicable and practical studies of our universe!

[edit on 31-3-2009 by LactoseIntolerant]

Very touchy subject here:

Personally I think that abortion should not be used as birth control for millions of people living in the 21st century-except medical emergencies, etc. There are a multitude of birth control options out there-people need to use them. I couldn't watch the video - I am sure that it's too disgusting for me.

I don't like the idea of abortions but I also don't think that I have the right to tell others - hey, "too bad your pregnant-deal with it." I see nothing wrong with the current laws regarding abortion in the USA.

Better sex education wouldn't hurt most. Simple statistics prove that if you want to live in poverty one of the best things to do is to get pregnant before you're 21. Maybe if people volunteer to take birth control for 4-5 years after high school they could get a tax credit or a grant to help with furthering their education. Then, if they decide to have kids after college they would be better able to support them and help their own kids achieve living the American dream. (?)

Just my "two cents" worth.

hmmm ok...i will admit that i havent read the whole thread, i'll go back and do that tho...cuz its interesting to say the least. but heres the thing. some people are against abortion...ok...that means they will never have one. but trying to take that right away from someone else, or making someone feel shameful/guilty/horrible about that decision doesnt make the situation any better either. i was adopted. my birth mother chose to have me and give me up for adoption. i have a severe mental illness that stems from fear of abandonment. i would NEVER wish my life upon anyone...because i have been thru the worst time EVER going thru treatment for my disorder. its fairly common for adopted children to have several mental health issues. i think its much more humane to abort a fetus before they ever have the chance to feel this kind of pain. forcing an unwanted child to be born is awful for the child. it can leave them feeling unwanted their whole life, like me. so...a quick, procedure to prevent someone from living a long life of total misery seems like a much better decision to me. now, im not saying that ALL adopted kids are going to turn out this way...but there is a certain connection between a mother and their child. when that bond is broken (especially at a crucial point when a baby needs their biological mother) it can have permanent serious consequences. even if the family you're adopted into is a great family. i have the most amazing loving caring family in the whole world...you really couldnt ask for better parents. but i still feel the way i feel. and i wouldnt want anyone else to have to live like me. ever.

reply to post by jasonjnelson


OK I'll ask again. Why would you allow abortion under the condition of rape? The source of the child should be irrelevant to your decision making process shouldn't it.

btw, as I was misunderstood earlier I believe in the womans right to choose I'm just trying to understand why a pro-lifer would allow any conditions no matter how small the percentage.

Keep in mind if Mary had the option of abortion due to rape JC wouldn't be around. (Or did I miss the part in the bible where she gave consent?)

reply to post by jasonjnelson


dude, i dont think anyone will ever get through to the folks supporting their right to choose, they obviously have no belief in God or the consequences of taking a life.
It probably sounds preachy to most people, but it seems we have gotten away from following the rules set by the Holy One, and people are too consumed by agnostic type views, He has not proven His exsistance to ME so it cant be true. But i totally agree with your thread, "Thou shalt not kill"

Originally posted by XD9611
reply to post by jasonjnelson

 

dude, i dont think anyone will ever get through to the folks supporting their right to choose, they obviously have no belief in God or the consequences of taking a life.

ooh back the truck up a bit. never heared of the inquisitions, crusades? They obviously didn't get any consequences.. in fact the church was rewarded for all the death with more power. Just because someone is pro-choice does not mean they don't believe in god or are willing to kill people.

It probably sounds preachy to most people, but it seems we have gotten away from following the rules set by the Holy One, and people are too consumed by agnostic type views, He has not proven His exsistance to ME so it cant be true. But i totally agree with your thread, "Thou shalt not kill"

I hate to break it to you but the church was never following rules of your holy one so there's not going back to them.