Support Abortion? Watch this video and please defend your decisions...

jasonjnelson, don't listen to these morons!!!!!!!!! These are the type of people that protect animals, but not humans. These are the type of people that think it is okay to induce labor of a woman who is 8 months pregnant and then crack the head of the baby and kill it. They have no sense!!!!!! These are the type of people that are for criminals rights, not victims rights. If woman don't want babies, then they need to STOP getting pregnant. Taking care of that responsibilty comes before pregnancy not after. I have seen first hand woman that say "I'll just have an abortion if I get pregnant." These people need mental help!

Originally posted by Victoria 1
jasonjnelson, don't listen to these morons!!!!!!!!!

..was a very good indicator as to what the rest of your post was going to be like. :shk:

These are the type of people that protect animals, but not humans. These are the type of people that think it is okay to induce labor of a woman who is 8 months pregnant and then crack the head of the baby and kill it.

no we don't.. you seem to be just making it up as you go along. so do we eat them too or just offer them up to the devil?

They have no sense!!!!!! These are the type of people that are for criminals rights, not victims rights. If woman don't want babies, then they need to STOP getting pregnant. Taking care of that responsibilty comes before pregnancy not after. I have seen first hand woman that say "I'll just have an abortion if I get pregnant." These people need mental help!

I think you should probably find a higher class of women to hang around with if they use abortion as a contraceptive.

reply to post by Victoria 1


Well, to call people (I assume in part a reaction to my post regarding animals) morons is a bit uncalled for.

But you are correct in the one bit where you say people need to stop getting pregnant in the first place. I completely agree.

And that starts with education and openness. Such as educating kids and children about proper uses of contraception and the end results of not using them.

But let's face the truth -- people are people. We all make mistakes. Time and time again. Especially when it comes to sex and pregnancy. And all the education in the world isn't going to change the very powerful and often hard-to-control hormones we have, especially those of young adults/teens. And they will have sex. And they will make mistakes and girls will get pregnant. That's a fact.

And they should be allowed to correct those mistakes for themselves. (No, I'm not saying every pregnancy or child born is a mistake - I'm referring to the situations where a pregnancy is unwanted)

Now, before you wrongly read into this that I'm advocating sex for underage teens or frivolous lewd behaviour, I'm certainly not. All I'm saying is you cannot change human behaviour easily. And a young girl who becomes pregnant mistakenly for whatever reason, should have the *choice* to correct her situation by her own means. And if that means having the child and then later put it up for adoption or to have an abortion because of what it would do to her life, then so be it. The point is, it's her choice and not yours or mine or anyone else's.


[edit on 1-4-2009 by noonebutme]

reply to post by noonebutme


I don't want to pick a fight, so I will say this as simply as I can;

I have no rights to other peoples children, and yet I can report child-abuse.

I have no rights to an unborn child, and yet, I feel as strongly for the health of that baby as I would one out of the womb.

You can call it what you want, but I call it a baby, and although I have no desire to control the lives of others, I do have a desire to defend those that can offer no defense themselves.

It really is that simple.

Originally posted by jasonjnelson
I have no rights to other peoples children, and yet I can report child-abuse.

Which is illegal, and the authorities will definitely follow-up.

I have no rights to an unborn child, and yet, I feel as strongly for the health of that baby as I would one out of the womb.

But there is nothing to report in the case of abortion. The authorities would not follow-up, and would probably punish you if you kept calling.

I do have a desire to defend those that can offer no defense themselves.

But how will you defend them if it's not illegal? And if you were granted your wish right now, and it was made illegal here, how would you defend those same unborn children in Mexico? You would only force a venue change, and open a huge market elsewhere that many will be more than happy to fill. I wouldn't recommend going there with signs and yelling at people...

reply to post by 27jd


I have seen this analogy in this thread, and will use it here.

Slavery was legal in most states for over a century.

That did not make it right, and in a slavery debate, would have seemed like a rather weak argument.

"slavery is bad and should be illegal."

"yeah, but it's not, so respect it, okay?"

reply to post by jasonjnelson


Come on man, owning slaves and undergoing an outpatient medical procedure are a wee bit different, you have to recognize that. Owning slaves is a long term commitment, whereas an abortion is not. People already flock to Mexico for dental work, and prescriptions. You would only be adding one more thing to Mexico to-do lists. How can somebody go to Mexico to own slaves?? The women having the abortions would not bring abortions back across the border with them, i'm not trying to be rude or sarcastic but the comparison doesn't fit.

Oh yeah, and I didn't say you have to respect anything, i asked how you would defend them, beside declaring your position and feelings on the subject...



[edit on 1-4-2009 by 27jd]

reply to post by 27jd


I get you, and this merry-go-round is not stopping.

We can keep arguing whatever, I am merely ponting out that just because something is legal at one point, does not make it somehow "okay".

Who knows what laws our spawn will look back on and lament?

Originally posted by jasonjnelson
Who knows what laws our spawn will look back on and lament?

No joke. Probably quite a few, and with scientific advances abortion probably will be looked back at as a barbaric and primitive practice. They will probably be able to remove unwanted fetuses and grow them in artifical wombs, and ship them off to begin colonization processes on other planets. It kinda sucks that they won't have a choice to be part of a family, but there won't be enough families to adopt all the children as the population in the world continues to explode. We will need to expand our civilization for sure and that's one way to do it I guess. Until then, the abortion genie is out of the bottle, unless you are able to convince everybody to honestly adopt your views there's really no way to stop it, legal or illegal. There HAS to be another option, one that enables the mother to seperate entirely from the fetus and all possible responsibility for the fetus, yet preserves the life. That's really the only way to stop it, IMO.

reply to post by 27jd


Did we just reach a bridge?

Nah, can't be... (checks signage)... Well what do you know.

Hmpf! (shrugs)

So what do we do now?

[On a serious note, I applaud your realization, or admitance (whichever it is) that we are engaged in a tragic practice. That's really all I asked of this threads participants. To agree, or at least see that I have a point.]

Originally posted by jasonjnelson
[On a serious note, I applaud your realization, or admitance (whichever it is) that we are engaged in a tragic practice. That's really all I asked of this threads participants. To agree, or at least see that I have a point.]

Well, I appreciate the sentiment, although I really never denied it was tragic, or that it was a life. I guess it just kinda fits in my mind with all the other horrible practices and circumstances that take place all over earth in which innocent people, as well as animals, are killed in very cruel and undeserving ways. If I had my way, i would stop all of them. I think the only way to achieve it though, short of magic, is to somehow all work together to find better ways.

Originally posted by jasonjnelson
reply to post by 27jd

 

I have seen this analogy in this thread, and will use it here.

Slavery was legal in most states for over a century.

That did not make it right, and in a slavery debate, would have seemed like a rather weak argument.

"slavery is bad and should be illegal."

"yeah, but it's not, so respect it, okay?"

funny you should use this argument when forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy against her will would in fact be slavery. The only way to sucessfully enforce a no abortion law would be to lock her up.

[edit on 1-4-2009 by riley]

Originally posted by Aermacchi

Originally posted by Krahzeef


So the topic of abortion is more about avoiding responsibilities than the actual stopping of a life? Abortion is abortion, it doesn't matter how it got there and shouldn't alter a view unless it's a shaky view to begin with.

This is what I don't get, The pro-lifers go on and on about the sanctity of life etc. etc. But then aren't consistent in their beliefs when it gets difficult. If people think abortion is murder (which I don't) then why allow conditions? It's "Thou shalt not kill" Not "Though shall not kill unless..."

Jason, You've still managed to avoid the question by putting conditions on it. What about 8wks into the pregnancy?

I don't see why this is so hard for you to understand. We are all the sum total of the choices we make. Most of the issue we have as problems in our lives we have chosen in one way or another, not all but most.

Now if someone were to make you walk into a bank while someone has a rifle trained on your head with the instructions for you to rob the bank and a security guard comes by sees whats going on and begins shooting at you. Another security guard comes up from behind you and says to get on the ground. You spin knocking him out while the other security guard starts to shoot. You take the gun from the one you knocked out and fire back killing the security guard. you run for the door but you suddenly see the red dot on your chest from the laser scope of those forcing you to rob this bank with the rifle aimed at you. You grab a money sack and leave getting into a truck you drive where they let you go. You have taken a life while being forced to commit a crime.

Are you responsible for any of that?

I don't think so and I don't think someone being raped should have to be forced into being the mother of the rapists child.

You think all crimes are dealt with in a cookie cutter fashion like you are suggesting where there is something in the legal field called mitigating circumstances.

Ok if your elaborate circumstance happened, firstly the security guard wouldn't start shooting at an unarmed man. Secondly if I was to shoot back it would be self defense. And if I killed the security guard I would be responsible. Responsibility and liability are two different things.

I would go to court explain the circumstance and I'd probably get away without serving time. However the security guard is still dead and I was the one who shot him. And I would be the one responsible for the death. I could have chosen to take the bullet and let the security guard live. Through my choice a human had died.

That situation is comparable to aborting due to health risks for the mother, which leads me to the question originally asked.....

How do you justify an innocent baby born to rape to be murdered?

Originally posted by jasonjnelson
I don't want to pick a fight (snip)

Me neither, I just enjoy debating.

I have no rights to other peoples children, and yet I can report child-abuse.

I have no rights to an unborn child, and yet, I feel as strongly for the health of that baby as I would one out of the womb.

You can call it what you want, but I call it a baby, and although I have no desire to control the lives of others, I do have a desire to defend those that can offer no defense themselves.

It really is that simple.

And that's fine. That's your definition of when life begins and that's what you believe - I won't knock that.

And if you want to disagree with what some women choose to do with their bodies or the unborn child they carry, so be it - that's your right.

However, your argument still doesn't convince me or alter my perception that regardless of *your* beliefs or even the beliefs of many, a person's body is their own and they should have the choice to do what they want. And in the case(s) of some women who are pregnant but cannot go through with it for whatever reason, they can abort if they like.

Personally, I don't know when a fetus becomes 'a child'. I havent made up my mind in that case. However, I also suffer from a severe detached disorder so maybe I'm not the best to offer opinions on that part of the argument.

I don't take issue with what you believe, certainly not. I only take issue if someone with such beliefs managed to get into a position of political power where they could create laws which would stop women from having the choice to do what they want with their bodies.

reply to post by riley


Might as well forget about someone's right to get a chance to live huh? We all got in so what's it matter if we slam the door on others huh?

Especially in light of the fact that there is plenty of ways to stop unplanned pregnancy from happening without killing. And alot of those are offered free of cost.
Once the deed is done and the precautions that should have been taken not taken why should the life created be sentenced to death because of the failure of another to plan for a sequence of events they did not want yet did the act that brings about that sequence of events WITHOUT properly preparing to avoid said events.

[edit on 2-4-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by riley
Especially in light of the fact that there is plenty of ways to stop unplanned pregnancy from happening without killing. And alot of those are offered free of cost.

But what about when said precautions don't work? No contraceptive is 100% effective apart from abstinance and that isn't fun for anyone!

What about a woman who is raped and becomes pregnant? Or someone who makes a genuine mistake and forgets their precautions? One mistake means they have to have a child and forfeit the next 9 months of their life?

It's easy for other people to say how wrong it is to abort a fetus and so on, but how many times do said people put themselves into the position of the woman? What if she's young and in school? Or in bad financial times? Or simply doesn't feel ready for it? For the next 9 months her life is going to be a torment and then after that they have to deal with the fiscal realities of it. The whole ordeal could be far too much and potentially ruin a great deal of their life.

A woman shouldn't have to have the child because others believe it's wrong to abort. I mean, any of us can believe what we want and apply those beliefs to our own lives fine. But not to hers - not to someone else's life.

And no, the fetus' life doesn't count as it isn't a person. And no, I dunno when I would classify it as such. But a few weeks to a few months into it isn't a big deal. Hell, most of us boys are genocidal maniacs at least once a day!

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by riley

 

Might as well forget about someone's right to get a chance to live huh? We all got in so what's it matter if we slam the door on others huh?

You said this is response to:

funny you should use this argument when forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy against her will would in fact be slavery. The only way to sucessfully enforce a no abortion law would be to lock her up.

You did not really address what I said.
If you are a christian you would know that free will isn't something that is taken away when a woman gets pregnant. Most human beings (regardless of belief system) consider slavery to be wrong and immoral yet you are okay with forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy she does not want against her will? How is that not grossly immoral? What exactly do you propose be done to enforce a no abortion law? If you haven't got any real answers or solutions it's just postering. Whining about how evil and irresponsible women are just makes you sound like you have issues with women.. it's counter productive and we've all heared it before.

Originally posted by Krahzeef
Ok if your elaborate circumstance happened, firstly the security guard wouldn't start shooting at an unarmed man

TRUTH IS
stranger than fiction

Secondly if I was to shoot back it would be self defense. And if I killed the security guard I would be responsible. Responsibility and liability are two different things.

And I am saying she would be neither Responsible or Liable

I would go to court explain the circumstance and I'd probably get away without serving time. However the security guard is still dead and I was the one who shot him. And I would be the one responsible for the death.

This is what I mean by "mitigating" circumstances where NO you are NOT responsible, the men forcing you into a situation where anything that happens, even if you are put in life and death situations where you kill someone to save your life, those who put YOUR life in danger using the threat of death aiming the rifle at you would be found responsible and most likely be charged with two murders including the infants if you were a woman who did this and were raped along with the forcing you to rob a bank

I could have chosen to take the bullet and let the security guard live. Through my choice a human had died.

You had no choice, it isn't your fault you had to kill the security guard. Hell you wouldn't even BE there if not to save your life in the first place. You could just as easily said to the guys aiming rifle at you that you refuse to do it and they could have killed you right then and there.

That situation is comparable to aborting due to health risks for the mother, which leads me to the question originally asked.....

EXACTLY! So why then are you having such a hard time with this?

How do you justify an innocent baby born to rape to be murdered?

The same way that rapist better hope the woman doesn't get an abortion because if she does, then HE gets busted for Rape AND Murder.

The same way accountability for the death of the security guard would be placed on the men that had the rifle aimed at you.

Originally posted by noonebutme

I don't take issue with what you believe, certainly not. I only take issue if someone with such beliefs managed to get into a position of political power where they could create laws which would stop women from having the choice to do what they want with their bodies.

It's one thing to argue what one can do to remove something already alive in a female whose body is quite capable of not only supporting it but also having BOTH survive the unfortunate consequence of a choice she made where the other choice is invasive surgery and the death of a son or daughter that could have been avoided had she been more concerned with the life of someone depending on her to be more considerate of others SHE put there as a result of that choice. The argument she gets to do whatever she wants with her body simply because it is HERS is not true anymore because what she has done is involve the body of another where she is at minimum responsible for it the nine months and the male for 18 years of child support if she so chooses which by the way is also a choice HE made but one he has no say in what so ever and is also enforced by the Government you say should look the otherway for a woman wanting to abort it.

The same Government that YOU say has no right to tell a woman what she can take out of her body is often the same Government that tells us what we can and can't do with our body in many other cases such as drugs.

Calling this a "Right" to choose what a woman can do with there own body would have better legal grounds as an argument to smoke pot than it does to take the life of another. In both cases she chooses to do something that may have long term effects on her body.

Both can be said were done at the time anyway for her own indulgence and recreation and both can have life and death ramifications that were believed to be possible but wouldn't happen to them but did if in fact a worst case scenario like getting pregnant or getting in a car wreck from taking drugs BOTH were the result of taking something into her body but you think the only one she should have a "Right" to a get out of jail free card is the one that kills an infant without even a manslaughter charge, no nothing but to think her punishment will be her conscience bothering her for the rest of her life. Yeah riiight.

When you can get laws that punish us for doing what we want to our bodies for things like smoking pot or whatever, THEN ill think you won't look so pious a feminist with the right to kill a baby for putting sperm in your body as a female the same way one can kill ther own body putting drugs in our bodies.

[edit on 3-4-2009 by Aermacchi]

Originally posted by riley

You did not really address what I said.
If you are a christian you would know that free will isn't something that is taken away when a woman gets pregnant. Most human beings (regardless of belief system) consider slavery to be wrong and immoral yet you are okay with forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy she does not want against her will? How is that not grossly immoral? What exactly do you propose be done to enforce a no abortion law? If you haven't got any real answers or solutions it's just postering. Whining about how evil and irresponsible women are just makes you sound like you have issues with women.. it's counter productive and we've all heared it before.

You are not talking about free will, riley. You are trying to merge freedom from responsibility as a result of your free will. You have have the free will to as you choose but choice's in life bear responsibility and sometimes life isn't fair and sometimes our choices don't always turn out how we planned them but they are still choices we have the freedom to make but when those choices involve others and you say it is slavery to make someone have a child. Sorry,, that dog won't hunt. No one forced you to have a baby unless you want to blame mother nature or were raped.

The fact is now that YOU DO have one, you are responsible for it and THIS is why sex is so under appreciated for the responsibilities it carries with it which happen to be THE BIGGEST responsibilities in any of our entire lives.

I think for the most part MEN take this for granted more than woman do, however, that being said, Roe VS wade was predicated on the lack of information regarding when LIFE begins.

If you want to make the argument that life isn't life as long as the baby is inside the womb depending on the mother to survive, tell me ONE living thing that isn't dependant on other living things.

To Date I have never heard of a dead creature depending on a damn thing and taken to its extreme, SOME living things even depend on the dead to stay alive. (Vultures) and even THEY won't "choose" to kill their young unless starving, perhaps not even then.