Masonry is good

it's funny how whenever someone quotes things high ranking "inner masons" have said about their religion/fraternity/whatever... all the masons have to say in defense is "that was a hoax! your just making that up! don't believe those lies!!"

reminds of speaking to scientologists trying to quote damning things L R H has said about his "religion"
"No no! his OWN SON didnt say those things! ITS A HOAX!!!! He was LYING!!"



then you same people try and debunk other religions and tell us we believe in lies?



[edit on 9-4-2009 by mostlyspoons]

[edit on 9-4-2009 by mostlyspoons]

Originally posted by Revolution-2012
You have as much proof they're not elusive, as I do they are.

ELUSIVE: tending to elude: as a: tending to evade grasp or pursuit b: hard to comprehend or define c: hard to isolate or identify

We are not elusive, we are private. We're not hard to define or identify.

Originally posted by Revolution-2012
I'd like a third party, someone like my self, to migrate into the Mason's without them knowing so, spend 10 years of their life attempting to achieve the 33rd degree(don't correct me if i'm wrong, i could give a # less.), and when they've finally achieved all the knowledge there is to achieve, whatever it might be, have it all recorded on a microphone, bugged, in their right shirt pocket.

Why so much deception? So much betrayal, distrust, lying, and everything that goes against the basic tenants of Freemasonry. With this thought process I understand why you don't comprehend the Freemasons.

reply to post by Smack

And yet, we've disproven your slanderous assertions and you still stay stubborn to your lies.

reply to post by Smack

He's admitted nothing about Masonry being a religion, but he was being sarcastic

reply to post by Vyrtigo

We do pay an annual membership fee. I have yet to receive a discount anywhere.

reply to post by Smack

Who are the inner circle members?

Originally posted by Smack
There are plenty more damning quotes from Pike and others of the various orders. You say it is a hoax. I say who cares. His own words damn him many times over. Interesting that you defend Pike. Hm...

What are these damning quotes?

[The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry. The whole body of the Royal and Sacerdotal Art was hidden so carefully, centuries since, in the High Degrees, as that it is even yet impossible to solve many of the enigmas which they contain. It is well enough for the mass of those called Masons, to imagine that all is contained in the Blue Degrees; and whoso attempts to undeceive them will labor in vain, and without any true reward violate his obligations as an Adept. Masonry is the veritable Sphinx, buried to the head in the sands heaped round it by the ages.] -- Albert Pike - Morals and Dogma p.819

What is of interest here is the conspiracy by these learned elders, like Pike, to "intentionally mislead" the Initiates. Only the Adepts and Princes are able to understand the truth, presumably because they have ascended to the spiritual pinnacle and received the true gnosis from the Grand Architect himself. As Pike explains, "...whoso attempts to undeceive them will labor in vain, and without any true reward violate his obligations as an Adept."

Just what might that obligation be, I wonder? I wonder if it is anything like the secrets Scientology keeps from their initiates. I suppose once you've paid enough dues, you can learn the truth too. I would recommend Masonry over Scientology though. it's cheaper.



[edit on 9-4-2009 by Smack]

reply to post by Smack


You also seem to think Manly Hall was a "learned elder" when the truth is he didn't even become a Mason until more than 30 years after he published "The Lost Keys of Freemasonry."

The god damn point is here, (nice points Vyrtigo), is that MASONRY is like a RELIGION.

If I run out and say that Agnosticism is GOOD, it does not mean it is GOOD in a grand sense, I'd never make a thread with a title as such supplying that in a grand sense it is good, point being water is good for you, eating meat is good for me.

POINT BEING.

A retarded title of a thread "Masonry is good" is saying Masonry is good in a fashion of which the very likes of Christian's and JW's Mormons and all the rest, run about spreading their word. I hate them for it. As I hate the OP.

Also, WHERE IN THE HELL DID ANY OF US SAY YOU WORSHIP SATAN OR A DEMONIC FORCE?!

I SAID YOU HAVE CONNECTIONS TO SUCH THAT HAVE DISPLAYED RELEVANT AFFILIATION!

Ugh, Mason's, once again proving themselves ignorant.

reply to post by Revolution-2012


Haha, thanks. And you dont have to worry about giving me credit. Feel free.

Cheers.

reply to post by Smack

[To all this the absurd reading of the established Church, taking literally the figurative, allegorical, and mythical language of a collection of Oriental books of different ages, directly and inevitably led. The same result long after followed the folly of regarding the Hebrew books as if they had been written by the unimaginative, hard, practical intellect of the England of James the First and the bigoted stolidity of Scottish Presbyterianism.]

"The better to succeed and win partisans, the Templars sympathized with regrets for dethroned creeds and encouraged the hopes of new worships, promising to all liberty of conscience and a new orthodoxy that should be the synthesis of all the persecuted creeds."

[It is absurd to suppose that men of intellect adored a monstrous idol called Baphomet, or recognized Mahomet as an inspired prophet. Their symbolism, invented ages before, to conceal what it was dangerous to avow, was of course misunderstood by those who were not adepts, and to their enemies seemed to be pantheistic. The calf of gold, made by Aaron for the Israelites, was but one of the oxen under the laver of bronze, and the Karobim on the Propitiatory, misunderstood. The symbols of the wise always become

the idols of the ignorant multitude. What the Chiefs of the Order really believed and taught, is indicated to the Adepts by the hints contained in the high Degrees of Free-Masonry, and by the symbols which only the Adepts understand.

[The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry. The whole body of the Royal and Sacerdotal Art was hidden so carefully, centuries since, in the High Degrees, as that it is even yet impossible to solve many of the enigmas which they contain. It is well enough for the mass of those called Masons, to imagine that all is contained in the Blue Degrees; and whoso attempts to undeceive them will labor in vain, and without any true reward violate his obligations as an Adept. Masonry is the veritable Sphinx, buried to the head in the sands heaped round it by the ages.]

Sacred-texts

While I don't think wasting this much bandwidth is always nesecary, this time it is. When you read Pike you have to start at the beginning. When you quote Pike, you have to include the context of what he was saying. When you regurgitate crap that you found on a anti mason website without actually doing any real reserch on your own, you look like an ass. This came from page 818 and 819. Please read it at your leasure.

reply to post by Mason mike

When you quote Pike, you have to include the context of what he was saying.

Out of context? Did I miss something? I'm pretty sure he said that porch masons were to be intentionally misled. Have I been misled? Why, pray tell, would he say that? In what context is that a good thing? How can you believe anything an admitted liar says? Why the deception? I'm sure you will endeavor to concoct a plausible (to yourself) explanation for this.

When you regurgitate crap that you found on a anti mason website without actually doing any real reserch on your own, you look like an ass.

I didn't realize quoting Pike directly was considered anti-masonic. I do agree about the regurgitated crap part.

Pike, for all his flowery prose and high-minded Ideals, was a liar. Liars often deceive people in this way.
I know it doesn't make sense to you. Pike was right when he said, "whoso attempts to undeceive them will labor in vain..." -- such is the power of their indoctrination. One must marvel at its power and effectiveness.

Originally posted by Smack


What is of interest here is the conspiracy by these learned elders, like Pike, to "intentionally mislead" the Initiates.

I disagree. What is really of interest is how you've contradicted yourself, apparently without even realizing it. I mean, let's get real....if Pike intended to "intentionally mislead" anybody on that point, he certainly wouldn't have published it in a book where anybody could read it, would he?

As Pike explains, "...whoso attempts to undeceive them will labor in vain, and without any true reward violate his obligations as an Adept."

I would say that Pike is absolutely correct on that point.

Originally posted by Smack


Out of context? Did I miss something? I'm pretty sure he said that porch masons were to be intentionally misled. Have I been misled? Why, pray tell, would he say that? In what context is that a good thing? How can you believe anything an admitted liar says? Why the deception? I'm sure you will endeavor to concoct a plausible (to yourself) explanation for this.

It's out of context because you apparently are just throwing out quotes without any understanding of what he meant. Have you actually read the book?

Firstly, you say Pike was an "admitted liar", which is false. Pike believed that people who wrote the modern lectures gave false interpretations. Pike, on the other hand, was trying to correct this by giving what he thought were the "true" interpretations in his book.

In context, the quote you posted is from Chapter 30, which relates to the 30th degree, called Knight Kadosh, a degree of Templary. At the time he wrote that book, Pike believed that the Masons came from the Knights Templar. Since the templars aren't mentioned in the Blue degrees, Pike believed this knowledge had been concealed, and only revealed to higher initiates.

Several years later, Robert Freke Gould published his "History of Freemasonry", containing older documents that Pike did not have access to. Gould showed conclusively that Masonry did *not* come from the Templars, but instead evolved out of the stonemasons guilds, which is what is taught in the Blue degrees in the first place. This led to Pike retracting the statement that you quoted, along with several others.

Since you either ignored all this, or weren't even aware of it in the first place, I would suggest you do a little more research before setting yourself up as some sort of expert to avoid egg on your face in the future.

reply to post by Masonic Light

if Pike intended to "intentionally mislead" anybody on that point, he certainly wouldn't have published it in a book where anybody could read it, would he?

Morals and Dogma published in 1871 was a collection of lectures given orally to members when they attained a new degree. If you look at the titles of the chapters from the book that is clear. So it was a purely internal document for many years. It was given only to members who had reached a certain level. So not just anybody could read it.

Does anyone else smell burning strawman?

Originally posted by Smack


Morals and Dogma published in 1871 was a collection of lectures given orally to members when they attained a new degree. If you look at the titles of the chapters from the book that is clear. So it was a purely internal document for many years. It was given only to members who had reached a certain level. So not just anybody could read it.

The book was indeed the collection of lectures, but it was registered with the Library of Congress upon publication, and therefore available to the public.

You still not address the context of the quote, concerning the Knights Templar, and Pike's subsequent retraction upon the publication of Gould's work.

When it comes to taking things out of context, from a historical sense, lets look at one of my personal favorite Bible quotes.

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

- Exodus 22:18
Now, this site: Linkage shows the various translations that verse has gone through, for various reasons.

Some of them were simply mistranslated, another example would be the mix up of "Red Sea" and "Sea of Reeds", the Red Sea being the location Moses' people fled to and then through in Exodus.
It's become tradition to recognize the location as the Red Sea.

However, since then new work has been done on translations, and older works have been re-examined. A better understanding has arose.

A good example of taking something out context would be in Josh Norton's avatar.

It's true, Pike's book Morals and Dogma is a compilation of lectures.
There have been many compilations of lectures on subjcts that, as time went on, were found to have errors.
A good place to look for them cropping up in modern day locations, aside from here, would be the Mythic Creatures, Ancient and Lost Civilizations.
Without them, we wouldn't have the tales of Mu or Lemuria, there would be far less stories of Atlantis.

to my view, the lie is a lie to keep you from knowing the truth. Always a good policy for swindlers, schemers etc..
And based in what I see happening in todays world, that view is not very out of place.

Albert pike by the way wanted the part of masonry being at its core lucifarian secret, as to do evil, one must mask himself in light..or am i wrong there?

p.s. sorry for any regurgitations.

reply to post by mastermind77

Albert pike by the way wanted the part of masonry being at its core lucifarian secret, as to do evil, one must mask himself in light..or am i wrong there?

Definitely wrong there, don't know where you came up with that.

Originally posted by C. Agrippa

....
Huh?

That's an oddball statement, and no doubts to it.

It's interesting, people find something they don't like and put all of their fearful expectations on it.

[Mod edit of quote of off-topic post]

[edit on 4/19/2009 by yeahright]

reply to post by network dude


ok you said ask a question and you will respond and answer honestly?


what is this as supplied in my link.




Can you please explain what animal or animals it represents in the coin?

I have more questions just about the coin, not just about the animal/animals but this will do for now.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Revolution-2012
I'd like a third party, someone like my self, to migrate into the Mason's without them knowing so, spend 10 years of their life attempting to achieve the 33rd degree(don't correct me if i'm wrong, i could give a # less.), and when they've finally achieved all the knowledge there is to achieve, whatever it might be, have it all recorded on a microphone, bugged, in their right shirt pocket.

So what is stopping you? Laziness? Cowardice? Indifference? All of the above? Make an effort in your life, do something. Prove to everyone that you are capable of achieving a stated goal or objective.

is this what freemasons mean or a very small meaning of it,

God helps those who helps themselves.

Ive seen this in our town and is sculptered into some stonework.

reply to post by Sparkey76


It's a Lion Rampant.

It's fairly common on English heraldry.

is this what freemasons mean or a very small meaning of it,
God helps those who helps themselves.

According to Aesop, the gods do.
God can help change, but ultiamtely it's up to the person. A lot of groups, masonry included, tries to teach that, and encourage their members to do so.

[edit on 19-4-2009 by RuneSpider]