Question for Christians - The Trinity and Getting Into Heaven

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
2. God Jesus calls himself God throughout the NT and the apostles do, and phillipians 2 says he came as a servant but is equal to God.

No he doesn't. He says the father is speaking through him, and he says the father is FAR GREATER than he is.

psalms 82

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

The father speaks through him. As he has a personal relationship with the father, and that is the relationship he tries to give and help others understand and realize.

To try and say that all of the father is in Jesus and only Jesus is to no where near understand the father, or what Jesus said. The father is not in Jesus, not in some of us, he is in ALL of us. It is only those who do not understand and walk in darkness that do not know it.

reply to post by LoneGunMan

To quote from a book written by man and to state is is Gods word is a bit insane. Read Romans...it is about man controlling man. Most of the quotes by Jesus have been twisted and manipulated by the time they made it to the bible in order to from control.

The Truth of the Word inspired by God and written by man is still contained in the Bible. To discount it due to your own personal bias is a form of egoism.

Psalm 27

1The LORD is my light and my salvation;
Whom shall I fear?
The LORD is the defense of my life;
Whom shall I dread?
2When evildoers came upon me to devour my flesh,
My adversaries and my enemies, they stumbled and fell.
3Though a host encamp against me,
My heart will not fear;
Though war arise against me,
In spite of this I shall be confident.

The Holy Spirit leads the saved believer into all Truth.

John 14

24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.

25 "These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you.

26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

27 "Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.

Again, Jesus and the Father are One. The saved Christian is invited into the Godhead through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

John 17

17 "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.

18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;

21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

reply to post by Icarus Rising


Then answer this.

A man lives his entire life doing good to others all for selfless reasons. He raised a wonderful family and never commits any sin. Just for arguments sake let us say he lived a perfect life. This man also rejects Christianity and Jesus completely because his free will tells him it is for control.

Will he go to heaven? Or hell?

Then you have a man that is the complete opposite. Commits sin after sin raises a selfish family and lives a self serving life. At the end though he realizes he was wrong and repents.

Will he go to heaven or hell?

Please be honest and don't give me any controlling fear based statements about original sin.

reply to post by LoneGunMan

A man lives his entire life doing good to others all for selfless reasons. He raised a wonderful family and never commits any sin. Just for arguments sake let us say he lived a perfect life. This man also rejects Christianity and Jesus completely because his free will tells him it is for control.

Will he go to heaven? Or hell?

Then you have a man that is the complete opposite. Commits sin after sin raises a selfish family and lives a self serving life. At the end though he realizes he was wrong and repents.

No one lives a perfect life. Only Christ, being fully man and fully God, was able to attain this perfection.

Jeremiah 17

9 "The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it?

Romans 3

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

James 2

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. (again)

Good works alone will not assure salvation.

John 3

5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

It has already been quoted that no one comes to the Father but through the Son.

As for the man who sins all his life but repents in the end, my reference for that is the parable of the workers.

Matthew 20

1 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.

2 "When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard.

3 "And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place;

4 and to those he said, 'You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.' And so they went.

5 "Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing.

6 "And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, 'Why have you been standing here idle all day long?'

7 "They said to him, 'Because no one hired us.' He said to them, 'You go into the vineyard too.'

8 "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.'

9 "When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius.

10 "When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius.

11 "When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner,

12 saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.'

13 "But he answered and said to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius?

14 'Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.

15 'Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?'

16 "So the last shall be first, and the first last."

I don't claim to know the mind of God, only what He reveals to me through the Holy Spirit as is necessary for me to do my part in the kingdom work. I agree that many of His ways don't make sense from a worldly perspective. God is supernatural and inexplicable, He sees the end from the beginning, and His wisdom transcends the logic and reason of man, which is trapped by time and space.

Isaiah 55

8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.
9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

[edit on 6-3-2009 by Icarus Rising]

reply to post by LoneGunMan


I know I wasn't addressed in your posting, but I'd like to field this question.

I think they both end up in Heaven. The person in the first example will find his path easier than the second example. The second person will find himself experiencing what he may consider the loss of his material possessions, but repentence is the recognition of a debt that must be repaid.

The cosmos demands conformity to order and balance and while the two spent their lives on different paths, they end up in the same place.

If I had to, I could easily stand before the Throne and explain why I destroy the Crucifix, Star of David or Crescent and Moon symbol and won't allow the Bible, Torah or Koran into my House or why I'd beat the Pope, Imam or Rabbi within an inch of his life with his Holy Book if the opportunity presented itself.

I know how people do their things in this place and so does God, but if I was wrong then I'll apologize.

People on their way to Hell never repent, they never admit that they did something wrong or explain their behavior. An evil person is one that lives with perfect knowledge and never has a doubt.

reply to post by huckfinn

An evil person is one that lives with perfect knowledge and never has a doubt.

The only person that lives with perfect knowledge and never has a doubt is God Himself. Anyone else is simply self-deluded.

Jesus was the EXPRESS IMAGE of GOD the Father ..this is why you cannot leave out Pauls writings Badmedia because the rest of the puzzle is in those writings ...you only have a small picture when you only read a few books out of scripture and skip the rest .....you can do that if you want to (is your choice) but please then do not pretend to know (or teach others)the whole truth and nothing but the truth then when you leave out the rest of the pieces to the TRUTH >....
(Dont worry I dont need nor do I want you to answer my post .(I have pretty much decided you and I have troubles getting along so no point in interacting too often ... .(which is fine with me ) .............this is just for those who may be reading and may take your teachings as the WHOLE TRUTH because it is not and is certainly not LINING UP with scripture ...and I think others deserve at least the rest of what scripture says ALL TOGETHER to piece the truth together for themselves ..BUT WITH all of scripture to determine what the truth is ..not just your picked out pieces of it)

You have to take the bible as a WHOLE just like you would have to have every piece of a puzzle in order to make it a complete picture ....if it was all that easy to understand there would be no need for studying would there ?
The Holy Spirit teaches you how to understand what you READ and what you live through and how to get through it all etc ...But he does not just spoon feed it to you without you having to DO SOME STUDYING to get all of the picture...which is why the BIBLE was written .....THESE THREE ARE ONE (GOD ....The HOLY SPIRIT and JESUS (WHO WAS THE WORD OF GOD ) which the WORD OF GOD was what JESUS did who he was and what he expects of us and what we have to do and know in order to GET BACK TO KNOWING THE LORD GOD OF HEAVEN (which we all left behind and didnt care about now for eons because we just didnt think we needed OUR MAKER anymore) ... and Jesus TAUGHT the APOSTLES the WORD and lived the word of God in front of them (not just being a knower of the will of God ..but also a DOER OF THE WILL OF GOD..(unlike us as human weaklings who cant even talk it let alone walk the walk too) ...... that word (everything they WITNESSED JESUS saying and doing etc ) was written down by those men who walked with him and those who followed him even afterwards ....(even we can recieve the word of the Lord by a dream a vision etc and we would also be expected to WRITE IT DOWN and pass it out to everyone we know ...they did the same thing *and our children will pass down what we heard and learned from the Lord too etc ...They WROTE IT DOWN so that we can READ IT TOO since we were not there and would not have KNOWN about it if THEY HAD NOT HAVE WRITTEN IT DOWN ....and now we can also know what they knew and we can live it with him (as in the word when read in the right spirit (wanting to really learn what it says) can virtually take us back to that place at that time and actually visualize it as they did and we also start to understand more and more just by reading their testimonies of what happened and what was said ...etc .. ..also ..who did what to who ..why was it done ..why did God need to send Jesus here (the purpose) who he was ..what he wants from us ..what his plan is in the future for us all etc etc etc etc etc .........

Anyway enough rambling .

These scriptures are TALKING ABOUT JESUS and who he was ....(read above verses and below verses to get it in context) ..
Link is here
www.blueletterbible.org...

BUt here is what I will concentrait on ...
Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


Jesus was the brightness of Gods glory ....

BRIGHTNESS
1) reflected brightness

a) of Christ in that he perfectly reflects the majesty of God

2) effulgence

a) shining forth, of a light coming from a luminous body (Vine)

b) out-raying (Vincent)

Read the what the Lexicon has to say too ..it is about midways down from the Concordance meaning..
www.blueletterbible.org...

Correlated passages *referencing scriptures
www.blueletterbible.org...

Of his GLORY
1) opinion, judgment, view

2) opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone

a) in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and glory

3) splendour, brightness

a) of the moon, sun, stars

b) magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace

c) majesty

1) a thing belonging to God

a) the kingly majesty which belongs to him as supreme ruler, majesty in the sense of the absolute perfection of the deity

2) a thing belonging to Christ

a) the kingly majesty of the Messiah

b) the absolutely perfect inward or personal excellency of Christ; the majesty

3) of the angels

a) as apparent in their exterior brightness

4) a most glorious condition, most exalted state

a) of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth

b) the glorious condition of blessedness into which is appointed and promised that true Christians shall enter after their Saviour's return from heaven


THE EXPRESS image of his person (OF GOD)
1) the instrument used for engraving or carving

2) the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it

a) a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13:28) or stamped on, an impression

b) the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile

(NOTICE THE PERFECT REPRODUCTION OF GOD >>(which Adam was supposed to have been but because Adam disobeyed (he was found with fault) Jesus WAS NOT >..he was the PERFECT REPRODUCTION of GOD the father ....
Also Adam and Eve were just an IMAGE of God (Not an exact replica) ....Jesus was the EXPRESS image (the exact copy) ...............we have FAULTS ...JESUS DID NOT ...we have SPOTS Jesus had no SPOTS (the unblemished LAMB) ..........

Now read the rest
Hbr 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Hbr 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Hbr 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Hbr 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Hbr 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

Hbr 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Hbr 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Hbr 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

There is more but I need a break (am cooking dinner) will get back to this in a bit ..FOr those who really are seeking to know who Jesus was ...at least READ THE REST OF THE SCRIPTURES (gathering the PIECES TOGETHER) then see a complete picture before coming to any conclusions ...Isnt that what yall ask of us who dont want to know about Science,Old texts (other than the bible) etc before we get set on what we believe ? That is all that we ask of you ...

Thanks for your time ...


[edit on 6-3-2009 by Simplynoone]

reply to post by Nammu


What you first need to see is the truth, because this is right in front of every ones eyes every day. God says he is true and has done all things.

It says that he creates evil and good. I

t says he repays you to your face.

It says he is the cause and effect, the beginning and the end.

It says, his hand has done all these things. He kills in anger, and raises at his delight.

He says, if today you will hear him and turn he will heal you. Sin is death, so only deadly things are sinful. When you are doing what is right for you and for others, you are a healthy cell in the body of God.

This is the narrow path and the truth since the beginning of the world. Jesus says, He is all men, for unto the least of these, so too, have you done unto me. The narrow path is through the hips of a woman....the pyramid...the tree of life......dipping YOUR ROBE in the blood of the lamb. "Do not forbid the children to come unto me"....."I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am, you too may be"....in the Womb...for 40 weeks or 9 holies....hollowed into...."therefore a man must leave his mother and father and cling inside of the woman of him and the two BECOME one flesh"...."so they entered in to the ark, male and female"


This is the salvation, the only salvation manifest since the dawn of witnessing who we are. His reward....IS WITH HIM. "The greatest thing a man can do, is to LAY DOWN HIS LIFE...for his friends"...."Call no man on earth your father, for one is your father, Even God"

Your friends are you family, "who follow you, bringing young ones on there shoulders"

The hight of heaven, is the last in line, not in the sky. Ask yourself why the blood is so important. Stop the blood from going forward, stop the life.

Jesus means "Self Existent Salvation". He preached IN THAT NAME. Jesus....WAKE UP....I mean you....JESUS. Your name is an action, not a description, but an INSCRIPTION. Read the INSCRIPTION...the name only you know.

Peace

Originally posted by Nammu
I've got a question and I need the help of Christians to understand this. I've put this questions to a few Christians and can't get a satisfactory answer.

If the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all the same thing, and Jesus said in John 14:6 "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by me", surely if you worship God instead of Jesus then you still get to heaven? Because they're all the same thing.

I mean, I think Jesus was a good guy but personally i'd prefer to stick with the big entity of what i envision God being.

Christians have told me that means I don't get into heaven cause i'm not accepting Jesus. But Jesus is God, supposedly. So how does that work then?

It depends on who you ask and what christian faith or denomination they belong to... you will get varying answers... It's up to you to decide and research what you believe in your heart and mind to be true...

Some faiths teach that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one being. Some teach that they are three separate beings. Depends on who you ask and what church you belong to.

Also many people interpret the bible in many ways, some use different bibles, eg. The King James version etc...

I do not say this to confuse you... but for you not to get confused and to search for yourself the answers that you seek. Don't let people tell you What to believe but decide for yourself what you believe is the truth.

What do I believe? I believe that God is our Heavenly Father. Jesus Christ is his only begotten son in the flesh. The Holy Ghost is our comforter. And I believe they are three separate beings. It is through the Saviour Jesus Christ and through his atoning sacrafice on the cross that he paved the way for us to repent and come unto him so that we can be saved.
It is only through God's son that we can do so. He is our mediator with God the father.
Everything that God wants us to do or he instructs us to do, he tells us through his son, Jesus Christ.
I could throw scripture after scripture at you but people will interpret them to mean different things. Thats why I say only you can find the answer for yourself.

MW31

Originally posted by Nammu
But a lot of Christians do think this way. And i'd like to know what the reasoning is that you can get to Heaven only through Jesus, but Jesus is God, but you somehow don't get in through God.

It's really confusing.

There is only God in heaven.
Jesus got to heaven because he was God, and not Jesus.
This is "the way".
So,
If you are going to get to heaven, you must go as God.
Rather, you must go as the "Son of God".
That way, you go *through* the Son of God to the Father.
Get it?
Jesus did not consider it grasping to be equal to God.
What about you?
How do you feel about being equal to God?
If you reject this idea, then you reject your passport to heaven.
In a way, you have already rejected it...even before the foundation of the world of time, form, shapes, separation, differences, and all that makes up the universe.
The rejection of your status gives rise to "the universe" and belittles you within it.
Somehow, littleness is made acceptable, and magnitude is made rejectable.
Now it is a matter of going from littleness to magnitude.
To go to heaven, be vigilant about your magnitude in the face of belittlement.
It's important to go to heaven as the Son of God.
This re-orders cause and effect in your mind.
The universe is an expression of self-making.
The universe denies *Our Father* fatherhood.
And we have made ourselves our own "father", and called it "God".
This reverses cause and effect.
The universe is built on the reversal of cause and effect.
Effectively, it is a grand deception.
To undecieve yourself, accept the fatherhood of *Our Father*...and not the "gOd" of the world of time and form.
That "gOd" is a god of our own making, and is not our true *Cause*.

The deceived maintain that the gOd of this world is "our father".
And these make "Jesus" his "son".
And these make us go through "Jesus" to get to "heaven".
This sets up a beaurocracy...a kind of priesthood, if you will.
A priesthood will practice priestcraft.
Priestcraft proposes a magical solution to the prodigal son's problem.
Avoid these solutions.

You are equal to God or you are not.
The truth is...you are.
The lie is...you are not.
You can accept the truth or continue to deny it.
If you deny it, you will *appear* as something else.
You may appear to be a man...woman...beast...creeping thing.
All of these are manifestations of a denial of magnitude.

Hell is a manifestation of all that is not God.
Hell is an appearance...manifested of a belief.
Hell is the belief in all that is not God.
This is hell.
That is, the world of persons is part of the manifestation of hell.
Hell and "the universe" are the same.
Did you think hell would advertize itself truthfully?
No. It advertizes itself as everything, in place of Everything.
You are Everything.
So,
Hell is a belief in everything that is not Everything.
Heaven is Everything.
So, to go to heaven is the same as saying:
"Know thySelf".

Thy "Self" is Caused by *Our Father*.
Thy Self is the same as Our Father...like from like.
Thy Self is Perfection from Perfection.
Thy Self is Life from Life.
Thy Self is Totality from Totality.
Thy Self is Knowledge from Knowledge.
Likewise,
Thy Self is a cause.
Thy Self has caused a son...like from like.
Therefore,
Thy Self is a father, just as *Our Father* is a father.
I speak of cause and effect, like from like...not gender.
Hell is something you do with your power...the unspeakable power of your mind.
Hell is something you think about yourself.
Hell is how you see yourself...perceptively...deceptively.
Hell is the expression of all that is as it is nOt.
Hell is an expression of freedom and curiosity.
Otherwise,
Hell is meaningless.
Hell can't change Heaven, just as a lie cannot change the Truth.
Hell is something we've all accepted.
Now it's time to accept the Truth and let the lie be what it is...a lie.


Christ!









[edit on 9-3-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by Nammu
If the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all the same thing, and Jesus said in John 14:6 "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by me", surely if you worship God instead of Jesus then you still get to heaven? Because they're all the same thing.

The Holy Spirit is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
All of the titles attributed to Jesus belong to the Holy Spirit.
Savior, Prince of Peace, Redeemer.
Jesus merged with the Holy Spirit as 'one'.
In merging with the Holy Spirit, Jesus 'died' to what is not truth.
Jesus is not the truth because flesh is not the truth.
Spirit is the truth about "us".
Jesus identified with "the Truth".
That is the first step in merging with the Truth.
As lies are washed away, the Truth is revealed.


To understand this better,
I would point to the parable of the prodigal son.
The "son" leaves his "father's" "kingdom", goes far away, has a hard time, and decides to come "home".
It is an unholy spirit which leads the son away from home.
It is a Holy Spirit which leads him back home.

The Holy Spirit is equal to Father and Son, created in response to the prodigal son's exodus from "the Kingdom".
The Holy Spirit handles the problem of the son's self-denial.
It is primarily a problem of communication.
As the son denies all that is true, communication is potentially disrupted.
The Holy Spirit keeps a communication link open between "the Kingdom" and the realms the prodigal son makes with the power of belief.

The Father and the Son are co-creators.
Conceptually, the Son goes his own way.
Before he goes, as he takes his first step away, he accepts a blessing.
The blessing is the "Holy Spirit".
Think of the Holy Spirit as a "brother" to the Son...equal in every way.
The Son has consented to co-create a Brother in response to the concept of separation.
As the concept is taken more seriously, the Brother is both taken with, and also denied.
The Brother works in the background to rectify the situation over time.
As time is built, the Brother takes it apart.
As a result, within consciousness, two worlds may be seen.
We can see the one the prodigal son built, or,
we can see the one his brother built.
If we see the one the brother built, it will lead us home...back to the Kingdom.

In the bible, there is added a 'jealous brother'.
That part of the story was added by the ignorant.
The prodigal son returns home precisely because of the work of his Brother.
His Brother is the architect of the "plan of salvation".
And upon returning home, the Brother remains as an equal.


Christ!


[edit on 9-3-2009 by Christ!]