Question for Christians - The Trinity and Getting Into Heaven

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posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 08:04 AM
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I've got a question and I need the help of Christians to understand this. I've put this questions to a few Christians and can't get a satisfactory answer.

If the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all the same thing, and Jesus said in John 14:6 "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by me", surely if you worship God instead of Jesus then you still get to heaven? Because they're all the same thing.

I mean, I think Jesus was a good guy but personally i'd prefer to stick with the big entity of what i envision God being.

Christians have told me that means I don't get into heaven cause i'm not accepting Jesus. But Jesus is God, supposedly. So how does that work then?





posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 08:27 AM
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You may be thinking too much. I also read something that said that you don't have to do anything at all and Heaven isn't something you necessarily have to work for and you get it for free.

Does Jesus even accept worship?



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 08:44 AM
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reply to post by Nammu
 


The Christians twisted the word of Jesus for control. This was done by the Romans...not the word of God.

The statement Christ made meant to get to heaven/Nirvana you had to have the mind of Christ, the heart of Christ. To do as Christ did. To not judge, to turn the other cheek...to be a better person and commit selfless acts. To be serve others and not just self.

To live the teachings of Christ. God is not so petty to ask for worship.

God wants you to evolve your soul, to learn the lessons of many lifetimes until you are like Christ, Buddha, Krishna and so on; truth and unconditional love.

Edit to add: John 14:6 in which Jesus says, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"



[edit on 5-3-2009 by LoneGunMan]



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 08:57 AM
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OK, so pretty much not all Christians think that way.

I think the same as you guys. Jesus wouldn't want to be worshipped in the way he is. I believe he was a Kabbalist, you can tell from his teachings. i think he'd also be pretty p'd off that the Catholics spend so much time worshipping his mother. Being a good person and furthering yourself is all that's required.

But a lot of Christians do think this way. And i'd like to know what the reasoning is that you can get to Heaven only through Jesus, but Jesus is God, but you somehow don't get in through God.

It's really confusing.



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 09:46 AM
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Originally posted by Nammu

But a lot of Christians do think this way. And i'd like to know what the reasoning is that you can get to Heaven only through Jesus, but Jesus is God, but you somehow don't get in through God.

It's really confusing.


Think of it this way. All religions have a common belief in God. Jesus is a Christian exclusive like a Mcdonalds Big Mac. If you want a Big Mac there is only one place to go. Same with Jesus...its about money and control and has nothing to do with the spiritual. If you believe in God/higherpower you can shift your perspective to include all religions and belief. The Christian church cant have that. It was a trick first played out by the Romans to try and keep control over the people.

Its the oldest trick there is.



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by Nammu
 




Being a good person and furthering yourself is all that's required.


This is the doctrine of works. It says that good works will result in salvation. The Bible teaches just the opposite; that salvation will result in good works. The Bible is very clear that it is only through belief that Christ is the Son of God and came to earth to die an atoning death for your sin that you can be saved. Good works are done in gratitude for salvation.



John 3

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ephesians 2

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

James 2

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. (fallacy of works doctrine)

17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


God bless



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 11:54 AM
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But a lot of Christians do think this way. And i'd like to know what the reasoning is that you can get to Heaven only through Jesus, but Jesus is God, but you somehow don't get in through God.


The simple jist is, "Do you accept Jesus as your personal savior?"
If yes, then Heaven, if no, then Hell...

This is the common Christian take on it... Has nothing to do with the trinity as far as the average Christian is concerned (from observation)...

Otherwise, most Christians would just see one worshipping God and not accepting Jesus as Jewish.

Personally, I've never been for this whole idea of black and white beliefs governing one's afterlife destination.....



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 12:05 PM
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reply to post by Gazrok
 


That is right. The Trinity belief is in the essence of God eternally existent in three persons: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. All are one.



Genesis 1

26 Then God said, "Let Us (the Trinity) make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Matthew 3

16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,

17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." (Trinity manifest at the baptism of Jesus)



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 01:06 PM
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Originally posted by Nammu
Christians have told me that means I don't get into heaven cause i'm not accepting Jesus. But Jesus is God, supposedly. So how does that work then?



lol, its because the passage is clearly differentiating between jesus and god. they are 2 separate people.

most trinitarians seem to have problems reading passages



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 01:12 PM
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Originally posted by LoneGunMan
To live the teachings of Christ. God is not so petty to ask for worship.


so jesus was lying?

matt 4:[10] Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

john 4:[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

john 9:[31] Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 01:32 PM
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Nammu

Some Christians say if you don't accept the trinity you can't be accepted to heaven, too bad it's exactly the other way around. Because if you believe that Christ=God as one entity, in essence you deny the ransom sacrifice, because then Jesus never really died and ceased to exist for a couple days paying the ransom sacrifice for all humanity, did he?

You are correct Jesus is not the Almighty God. Don't let them confuse you.
They are just parroting what they learned at church from minsters that don't even know what the bible really teaches.



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 02:50 PM
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Perhaps we don't have the same definition of the word of worship as we did 2 thousand years ago, or perhaps Jesus was speaking to people who worshipped idols and he was saying...worship God, not that piece of wood!

In any case, I don't think formal worship of God or Jesus is required, nor expected, but if worshipping is what you are into, worship God.

I once read that man was not created to confirm Gods existence and this whole religion thing is only tolerated so that if religion is what you need, then at least have a religion that won't get you killed.

You don't have to be literate to get into heaven, if so, then wouldn't we have been born with the ability to read and write? It's optional, knowledge is optional, worship is optional.

You don't have to do anything.



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by huckfinn
You don't have to do anything.


i totally understand.

your relationship with god should be like every other relationship you have, just sit back and dont do anything.

like when my friends come over my house and i just go about my day like they arent even there, i know they love me.



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 03:17 PM
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Worship simply means to honor God with your prayers and thanksgivings ......to do homage to ....to submit to ....

to prostrate your heart in obedience to him (especially spiritual obedience) ..when spiritually obedient (loving the Lord with all your heart soul and mind and loving your neighbor as yourself) .....you will also be physically obedient (refraining from endulging in the fleshly desires which harm our bodies and affect the spirit as well) ..........which is why the Lord said those are the two most important commandments ..if you keep those two ..you will certainly keep them all (If you love GOD you will certainly love yourself ..and if you love yourself you will treat your neighbor as yourself consider you would do unto others as you would want done unto you .....and if you love your neighbor as yourself you wont steal from them ..you wont kill them or hurt them ....you wont want their wife ...you wont covet their stuff etc etc) ..................



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 11:05 PM
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God does not have ego. This is a trait of man. Only a being that has ego would ask to be worshiped. I myself and past the ego enough that I would never want to be worshiped, I believe God is above that.

To quote from a book written by man and to state is is Gods word is a bit insane. Read Romans...it is about man controlling man. Most of the quotes by Jesus have been twisted and manipulated by the time they made it to the bible in order to from control.

God is within and all answers are within. Look tot he God inside you and not the words of other men that do not have your best interest at heart.


There is a story told about a group of pilgrims who were touring the Holy Land with a guide who was native to the place. The guide was explaining how since time immemorial the shepherd did not walk behind his sheep but rather in front leading them and they followed him, just as the Lord describes Himself as the good shepherd: .

..the sheep hear His voice and He calls His own sheep by name and leads them out. When He has brought out all His own, He goes before them, and the sheep follow Him, for they know His voice (John 10:3-4).

As the guide finished this explanation the group laughed when they saw a man walking behind a flock of sheep and driving them along with a stick. Someone commented to the guide, “I thought you said the shepherds here always lead the sheep. Why is that man walking behind and driving them forward?” The guide answered, “Because he isn’t the shepherd, but the butcher.”

I am the good shepherd: I know my own and my own know me (John 10:14).


The Shepherd guides from within...if your church preaches hell then you are being led by a butcher.



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 11:42 PM
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Hi Lone ((((HUGS)))) I still love my avatar that you made ..thanks again ...




All the Lord wants is what any parent wants ...we spend our lives loving them nurtering them and teaching them ...preparing them for their future .we want only whats best for them (at least most of us do ) ..which is why we punish them when they do wrong and protect them from harm when they are in danger ...and inspire them to move on when they fall down etc etc .........and we at least want them to respect us ...to obey our rules ....to love us as unconditional as we did them ....and have a relationship with them for the rest of their lives ...involved in their lives etc even when they are adults ..

How do you suppose any of us would feel if our children walked out the door and just never even called ....never came by to see us ..never told us they love us ...and had no respect whatsoever for us .......I dont think that would feel very good ..

I can understand how God must feel ..his creation just turned away from even acknowledging him as their maker,protector etc ........he gets no respect ...and he gets no love ......he only gets spewed at by his rebel children (and even those who claim to know him..even they curse him when things go wrong ) ....not all but alot of them do ................


As far as the Antichrist and the false teachers preachers etc ..yes satan is in the Churches and in the organized religions and non religions (all of them) because that is where he can lead astray the sheep ..from the inside ....same as what has happened to our country ......(but dont be fooled ..he is outside of the churches too fooling those sheep who are outside of the Church (Governments,Scientific communities,Athiestic philosophy,self help lectures etc etc etc etc) .....he is certainly working overtime in ALL PLACES >>>....does this mean though that everybody who believes in the Lord,the bible,etc is a part of satan and his deceptions ..NO .in fact I believe thats why the word said TO GET OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE (Spiritual Babylon) .......so you wont go down with her ..............getting out means spiritually speaking ....everyone MUST seek the LORD ON THEIR OWN (Work out your own salvation) ...............and for sure do your own studying .....and draw nigh UNTO GOD and he will draw NIGH to you ...if you seek you will find .
and if you are obedient (not wishy washy and looking for your own way without any leading from the LORD ) .......then you will find THE TRUTH ...and the WAY will be clear to you ...you have to WANT the truth ...not your version of the TRUTH ...you have to be willing to accept the truth as truth too ....the truth does HURT when your idea of the truth is not exactly what the truth was ....just remember that ...........



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 12:49 AM
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Originally posted by Nammu
I've got a question and I need the help of Christians to understand this. I've put this questions to a few Christians and can't get a satisfactory answer.

If the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all the same thing, and Jesus said in John 14:6 "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by me", surely if you worship God instead of Jesus then you still get to heaven? Because they're all the same thing.

I mean, I think Jesus was a good guy but personally i'd prefer to stick with the big entity of what i envision God being.

Christians have told me that means I don't get into heaven cause i'm not accepting Jesus. But Jesus is God, supposedly. So how does that work then?



Hi Nammu, this is my view as a Bible reading Christian:

Jesus is the visual embodiment of the invisible image of God and the Holy Spirit is the physical presence of the omnipresence of God. Thus, Jesus was God with us and the Holy Spirit is God within.

as for eternal life,

Salvation begins when one sincerely admits that they are a sinner, repents, and accepts the invitation to allow God, the teachings of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit into their heart. (God literally tapped on my heart when I confessed much like someone at the door)

last but not least,

Worship God and give thanks to Jesus.

I hope this helps you. =)



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 12:54 AM
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reply to post by Gazrok
 


Originally posted by Gazrok
The simple jist is, "Do you accept Jesus as your personal savior?"
If yes, then Heaven, if no, then Hell...



So....it is all about Jesus?!

I....I thought that God came in there somewhere? What about God?

[edit on 6-3-2009 by babloyi]



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 03:43 AM
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Originally posted by Nammu
surely if you worship God instead of Jesus then you still get to heaven? Because they're all the same thing.


The catch is the whole purpose of Christ. He didn't come to get people to worship a deity. We already did that. He came to bridge the gap between you and I and God. Worshiping God is good. Pray to God, seek to know Him as He is, as He reveals Himself. This is good.

However, there's a snag. All of us talk about a loving and good God. He is such. However, in making that assumption, we assume that He must accept us as we are and grant us paradise not because of who we are, but because He's loving and good. I have found that it helps to picture this in worldly metaphors.

When someone convicted of a heinous crime stands before a judge, is the judge considered a good man if he lets that convict walk? Not at all! What if, instead of just letting the guy walk, instead the judge orders the government to pay for a tropical island and all the supplies and anything else the guy could ever imagine to be delivered to him? It would be absurd. The judge would be impeached, and probably hated by the nation, with no one calling him good.

Christ said, as you quoted, I am the way, the truth, and the life -- no one comes to the Father except through me (emphasis added). It is through Christ that we are redeemed. When He came, it wasn't to set up a new deity to be worshiped, where if you said the wrong name in prayer he'd jump out from behind a corner and yell, "haha! Gotcha!"

God is Just, and He established His law not to get us to follow it, but instead to show us the depravity of our nature, how far we differ from God. That was the whole point of the sacrificial system He set up with Israel -- Our depravity, which is merely choosing a different path or action than that which God has chosen, thereby saying we are smarter and better than God, must be paid for. God said the wages of sin is dead, and sin is just going in a different direction than God. If He is to be just, He cannot abide that without some sort of reconciliation. Imagine hanging out in heaven and Hitler's just as honored as mother Theresa. One sacrificed her life for the good of others, the other sacrificed the lives of the world for power.

Then we get to Christ -- He was the ultimate offering. The animals the Jews were called to sacrifice on behalf of their sin were symbolic -- they were not pure, they just appeared to be on the surface. Christ, on the other hand, was the perfect human. He was without sin, and never did anything that His Father (God) didn't direct Him to. Unfortunately, that curse in Genesis effected all of humanity, to where we lusted after what was wrong, what was evil, what was sin. Therefore, we needed God to be made flesh that He could provide the necessary sacrifice on our behalf.

The wages of sin is death, yet He who was without sin came, took our sin upon Himself and sacrificed His life that we might live.

So why does this not apply to everyone automatically? The way God has set up the universe, He has required that we claim that defense. We must claim Christ's sacrifice on our behalf to be redeemed.

In US court, if you're not read your Miranda rights before you confess to a crime, your admission of guilt is not admissible. However, if you never say you were never read your rights, the court will still find you guilty. Just like if a person wants to give you a hundred dollars, and is holding the bill out to you, no matter how much they want you to have the money, there is nothing more they can do until you reach out and grab that bill.

That is why it makes a difference if you just worship God without acknowledging Christ. You're telling God you worship Him and adore Him, but at the same time you reject His justice and you reject His plan to bring you to Him. You're saying, "well, God, I thing you're the best, but I have a better idea than this Jesus thing -- I thing you're the best, and that's enough. See ya soon!" That's like Forrest Gump telling Stephen Hawking that his theory regarding black holes is bunk and instead the universe is just swirly. It would be absurd -- Hawking is a physicist who is brilliant and has studied this all his life, while Gump is a fictional idiot. Like it or not, God is oodles smarter than you and I, and to say we look like Forrest Gump compared to Stephen Hawking before God is extreme flattery of ourselves. This is the guy who not only created the universe, but invented physics in a blink of an eye to govern all action throughout the universe. And we want to tell Him He's wrong?

That's the whole Christ thing, and why Christ must be accepted and loved.



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 05:40 AM
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1. The trintiy is implanted on every human body. The mystery of this has to do with the right hand. Stil I see very few people here who can realize this.


2. God Jesus calls himself God throughout the NT and the apostles do, and phillipians 2 says he came as a servant but is equal to God.




3. God said that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow.



So he does want worship, but as freinds. Worship mis nothing more then a sign of respect for who god is, but ultimately he came to be in communion with every human soul as their friends.


and thus this is how the saints became gods, full of Christ, full of humility.



peace.





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