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The Noahide Laws

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posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 10:20 PM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 


But you realize, politically speaking, there needs to be law.

Do you get that?

Its not that "i want to subject myself to law". There are two laws. The G-dly, divine law, that is intuitively and spiritually known, and theres the actual physical world which we live in. Currently, this world is in need of law. Otherwise, there will be anarchy.

Not until man is habituated and his soul made sensitive to divine law, can civil law be "abrogated". But were not angels. We need to know that if you do not do what you should do, there will be civil reprecussions, just as there are now.

Except in the future, the grossness and materialism of this current age will be replaced by a society that acknowledges the unity and truth of the one G-d. Man will learn to do what they should do. There will no longer be senseless wars for political gain. There wont be bullying in schools, or this wanton objectification of woman, on TV, on the internet etc, which only promotes feelings of egotism and pleasure seeking. There wont be CEOs who make bonuses when the economy is in shambles, or a political class that believes itself to be the arbitrators of human destiny. Weve had over 4000 years of that. We have lived under that, whether in a principality or republic for way too long now....Man will live within the confines of what is true, and right, and best for mankind. Man shall live by his CONSCIENCE, as G-d intended it.




posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 10:26 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by IAMIAM
 


But you realize, politically speaking, there needs to be law.

Do you get that?

Its not that "i want to subject myself to law". There are two laws. The G-dly, divine law, that is intuitively and spiritually known, and theres the actual physical world which we live in. Currently, this world is in need of law. Otherwise, there will be anarchy.

Not until man is habituated and his soul made sensitive to divine law, can civil law be "abrogated". But were not angels. We need to know that if you do not do what you should do, there will be civil reprecussions, just as there are now.

Except in the future, the grossness and materialism of this current age will be replaced by a society that acknowledges the unity and truth of the one G-d. Man will learn to do what they should do. There will no longer be senseless wars for political gain. There wont be bullying in schools, or this wanton objectification of woman, on TV, on the internet etc, which only promotes feelings of egotism and pleasure seeking. There wont be CEOs who make bonuses when the economy is in shambles, or a political class that believes itself to be the arbitrators of human destiny. Weve had over 4000 years of that. We have lived under that, whether in a principality or republic for way too long now....Man will live within the confines of what is true, and right, and best for mankind. Man shall live by his CONSCIENCE, as G-d intended it.


As I said, I completely trust in the divine to enforce HIS Law. I will not submit to, nor do I see a need for Man's Law. I have not met a single man capable of writing a just Law. Not Noah, Not Moses, Not Thomas Jefferson. No Man is perfect enough, wise enough, just enough, to write one single Law that encompasses the will of the divine.

Christ was the only man who understood this, thus his own recitation of the Divine Law, love one another.

If the law makers followed the divine law themselves, they would find themselves unable to write a law binding another man.

With Love,

Your Brother
edit on 6-4-2011 by IAMIAM because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 01:59 PM
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Originally posted by MikeboydUS
Every major religion on the planet already follows most if not all the Noachide Laws in some form.

I'm trying to figure out why this is a bad thing.

How does idolatry benefit us as a species?
How does murder benefit us as a species?
How does theft benefit us as a species?
How does immorality benefit us as a species?
How does blasphemy benefit us as a species?
How does eating the flesh of a living creature benefit us a species?
How does not establishing courts benefit us as a species?


You dont understand.

Idolatry defined by WHO? Who gets to decide?

The answer is talmudic authorities. The sanhedrin. Thats who.

And they class Christianity as idolatry which is a capital offence as are ALL transgressions of the counterfeit 'noahide laws',



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 02:21 PM
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Originally posted by dontreallyWow. You launched quite an attack here.

Firstly, MOST Jews acknowledge the concept of the Bnei Noach, or as its called the "noahide" laws.


Who cares what most jews acknowledge? Whats that got to do with me?


Originally posted by dontreallyI for instance am a "noahide" - a Bnei Noach who acknowledges the centrality of Judaism and Torah.


Jesus is central friend. If you truly thought the Torah was central, you would know that and recognise who the Torah pointed to and prophesied. Jesus Christ the Lord and Saviour who came right on schedule. Unfortunately you have been misled because you are following lies and made up laws from the TALMUD.


Originally posted by dontreallyNot just that, but the idea of "dismantling christianity, and denying christ" is complete hogwash.


Beheading people for the witness of Christ as GOD doesnt sound like hogwash to me. Not just individuals but entire nations are being threatened with death unless they submit to these laws.


Originally posted by dontreallyUnless people here want a holy war, ie; a massive world war of Christianit vs. Islam, we have to come to a more peaceful and politically realistic solution.


Threatening people with death is not peaceful. Its the opposite. Jews and the zionist state of israel are the LAST people to be crowing on about peace. Ye hypocrites, ye blind guides, how can any of you escape damnation?


Originally posted by dontreallyThe Noahide covenent is based on this concept. It is literally the law as it came down through the ages.


Your right, it has come down through the ages but NOT from God. It has come down through the ORAL traditions of the rabbis/pharisees/zionists.


Originally posted by dontreallyChristianity has served to dispell the lies of Paganism/polytheism, therefore Christianity very much merits remaining Christianity, and Islam, Islam. Judaism expects no converts, and expects nothing more than adherance to the 7 laws of Noach, which are in essence:

Do not murder - respect for human life
Do not steal - respect for possession
Do not be sexually immoral - respect for the divine purpose in sexuality
Do not be an idolator - Respect G-ds sovereignty in human reality. This precludes submission to any foregin philosophies that contradict the above laws: nihilism, satanism, moral relativism. These are all "idols" gods which those who lack awe for the creator submit to. They replace his dominion, for their own. Hence they fashion their own "gods"
Do not blasphemy the creator - respect for human speech. Respect for all men who are made in G-ds image.
Do not Harm animals - respect for nature and the whole creation.

And a legal system that at the bear minimum upholds the above laws.

This is evil to you?


Yes, it is very evil. Becasue all religions are classed as idolatry unless they worship the g-d of talmudism. This is not the same God of the Hebrews/Israelites who is the Lord and saviour Jesus Christ. Jesus is God. Now tell me I'm not an idolater.


Originally posted by dontreallyTo anyone here with a brain, this character who started this thread is an example of an evil hate mongerer. He has simply defamed what the noahide covenenant is, and has misrepresented it while including his obnoxious prejudice of Jews - particularly observant orthodox Jews, whom he calls 'pharisees" - "the synagogue of satan". These are simply lies. You can either look this information up yourself, and thus vidnicate my claims, or ignorantly believe the calumnies of this completely ignobile character. This gnostic who denies universal moral laws.


And here we go with the ad hominim and the namecalling. Quite predictable. Oh and dont forget to throw a few buzzwords in like 'hatred' and 'prejudice' for good measure. What no 'antisemitism'? Saving that one for later are you?


Originally posted by dontreallyIf anyone here would like to understand the truth and put to rest this repulsive libel of this unscrupulous gnostic poster here, please read any of the above books. They will more than clarify the subject for you. Also, there is no capital punishment. Capital punishment only applies in cases of murder; and even than only after the person has been found guilty of murder after a fair trial.


Lies. Capital punishment is for transgression of ANY of the 7 laws. This is documented from several talmudic sources.

Example:

SOURCE: Hacidic University

+226) To execute certain transgressors by the sword

Application to gentiles: Required

Mandated punishment for violation: From Heaven, at minimum

Brief description: To execute by decapitation those who are convicted of committing certain sins. The procedure of decapitation is usually carried out by the sword.

This penalty is carried out by Jewish courts for particular sins, whereas it is the only method of capital punishment carried out by gentile theocratic courts, regardless of the crime under the Noahide Laws.

Category: Justice Commandments
Biblical source(s) (Rambam): Ex. 21:20
Biblical source (Sefer HaChinuch): Ex. 21:20
Number in Sefer HaChinuch: 50

And also:

SOURCE: The noahide laws.com

Punishment for Transgressing This Commandment

Anyone who fails to establish a fair courts system, that is, someone who lives in a community or city where there are no courts, and who does not have a means to correct and discipline wrong doers, is punishable by death. A community or city that establish laws that are contradictory to the 7 Noahide Laws is also punishable by death.

Noahide Lawyers?

Okay so there is no such thing as lawyers for Noachides. But Noahide law is very cut and dry. If someone transgresses, then they are punished with death by beheading.


Originally posted by dontreallyThe legal system is not much different than what we have today, although the concept of "tooth for a tooth" which specifically means proportional justice, and not an actual tooth for a tooth, but a penalty that meets the nature of the crime done, seeks greater justice than what we have in todays judicial system.


Readers take not. Talmudists are allowed to lie to gentiles if it supports the overall agenda. Transgression of ANY of the laws means death, including failure to set up noahide courts.


Originally posted by dontreallyPlease. I BEG you to read this book to put to rest the sickening lies of this gnostic. What he has accussed the lubavitchers here, and Judaism at large (since most Jews acknowledge the Noahide laws. It was simply the Rebbe, MHNBB, who made it his mission to spread this message to the nations) is completely and utterly untrue.

Read this book and i guarantee 95% of you will agree with its basic idea. If you are religiously inclined, and respect the ethics the Torah propounds, you should agree with its basic message.


The noahide laws have nothing to do with the Torah.

You are either a deceiver or are grossly deceived yourself. Come out of her. Come to Jesus. Repent.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by dontreallyIt ISNT a bad thing. This psycho poster is trying to spread fear/paranoia to incite antisemitism.


And there it is right on cue. The 'antisemitism card'. The supreme defender of the mother of Harlots for centruries.


Originally posted by dontreallySome however genuinely believe this is a ploy of the Jews to inflict capital punishment on the gentiles. As if that were to be acceptable by 99% of mankind, which isnt Jewish. Capital punishment applies only with murder. All other infractions have corporal punishments.


Please document this claim of differing punishments using talmudic sources. I'd be interested to see them.


Originally posted by dontreallyIve read up on this subject thoroughly. The laws are basic. And the gentile governments are in complete power to administer them in any way they like. There is NO coercian by Jews or Judaism to influence gentile law, other than insuring all mankind honor these 7 universal principles of Morality.


You are either lying or you havn't done enough reading up on the subject. Noahide courts are subject to their supreme authority which is the sanhedrin. Again I will document from their own sources.

SOURCE: WikiNoah

"The UNC, Inc.[United Noahide Council] recognizes only orthodox Rabbis who observe Jewish Law (halachah). They recognizes all rabbinical courts, properly formed, for the purposes of determining Jewish and Noahide Law. They recognize the nascent Sanhedrin in Jerusalem as their highest halachic authority in matters of Jewish and Noahide Law. The UNC, Inc. has been recognized by the nascent Sanhedrin. The UNC, Inc. worked to obtain the ruling of 7th November, 2006, defining the relationship between the two organizations."

---------------------------------

Notice the sanhedrin are their HIGHEST authority. Meaning, what they say GOES.

And regarding coercing gentile law of the land we see.....

--------------------------------

"Only where a national law deviates from all possible interpretation of the seven laws, does the UNC seek to lobby for change"

-------------------------------

So to say there is no coersion is simply FALSE.


Originally posted by dontreallyChristianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, none of the worlds great religions are at stake here. ALL can coexist with the proper observance of these laws.


No, they can't...they are all classed as idolatry and subject to death. En masse if necessary.


Originally posted by dontreallyThis is what is meant by Isaiahs prophecy of

"The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them."

This speaks of the time when the worlds religions abandon their parochial dogmas in appreciation of a larger context that harmonizes differences in culture, language and belief. EVERY path to G-d is a genuine path, as long as it doesnt impair the spiritual spheres which the above 7 laws seek to keep intact


Abandon their 'parochial dogmas'??

You mean...abandon their worship of any God other than the talmudic g-od?


Originally posted by dontreallyThis was the core teaching of Rabbi Abraham Isaac Ha-Cohen Kook, the father of religious zionism. As well as the Rebbe. These men were HOLY loving men who loved gentiles. True, they loved jews more than non Jews. Just as one loves his brother more than his cousin, or a friend. Closeness, and similarity elicits a greater love. But nonetheless, the love these Jews have for non Jews is the love that should characterize ALL human beings in their love for one another. A chinese will always feel closer to another chinese. But that love is simply a deeper love. Love is love. Its just in different degrees.

This is just sad that this pathetic poster decided to attack the Noahide laws in order to spread his paranoia/fear about Jews and Judaism.


You cloak killing in the name of love. Disgusting. (or you are completely deceived)



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 02:33 PM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 


That is absolutely insane.

The fact that your "law" is impractable, and would by necessity lead to anarchy, your "law" isnt any law at all. A Law is something that recurs perforce. If it doesnt recur, or cant sustain itself, than it is not a law.

Men should not kill. But not all men feel that we should not kill. If we leave it to you, men would kill and bring sufferring upon the innocent. A JUST world, is a world where laws exist to keep the lesser, evil, and more profane minded men from harming the innocent. Such a world will eventually weed out such coarse and destructive personalities and make the world into a better place.

Your world only exists in your mind, as a kind of utopia, but in reality, a world without civil law is a world of disorganization, and chaos, and bound to undo itself.

This is such a simple thing to understand. There is a reason why people who think the way you do have no power. They are for lack of better words deranged. They are not connected with the realities of this world, and so their blind idealism would result in the suffering of innocent people, a fact and reality they probably find no problem with (which make them absurdly dumb).



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by IAMIAM
I do not know what anyone else will submit to, but as for me, I submit to no man or body of men. There is only ONE divine law, and it is written on the heart at birth, thus proving it's divine origin. That is to Love one another.

Let those who wish to be judged by Moses, be judged by Moses, and Noah-Noah. They are men who spoke of God only as they understood him. I will speak for God as I understand him.

If you love one another as you love yourself, you have no thieves for you give to each other all that you need.

If you love one another as you love yourself, you do not commit idolatry because you see the divine in each other.

If you love one another as you love yourself, you do not cast judgement at who another has sexual relations with.

If you love one another as you love yourself, you will not murder them, and if they do murder, you do not judge but find out why and heal them.

If you love one another as you love yourself, you do not need a justice system for you seek to resolve all difference together with a heart of love.

If you love one another, you are not cruel to animals or any other living thing. You respect them and manage them lovingly that they will always be there for future generations.

Only one law is needed, only one law is divine, only one law will I submit to.

Love one another.

With Love,

Your Brother
edit on 6-4-2011 by IAMIAM because: (no reason given)


This is how you apply the concept of love to the world. This is how it should be used.

God bless you Brother. And God's speed.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 02:43 PM
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Originally posted by dontreallyIn the real world, there needs to be laws to maintain order.


Not religious laws that execute people for their choice of God.


Originally posted by dontreallyI do agree that somewhere down the line, when all of us are habituated to proper thought, speech and action, and man has no desire to break the divine law, there will be no need for a noahide laws. Till then, we need to institutionalize these laws in order to make men think and do as they should.


"we need to institutionalize these laws in order to make men think and do as they should"
"we need to institutionalize these laws in order to make men think and do as they should"
"we need to institutionalize these laws in order to make men think and do as they should"
"we need to institutionalize these laws in order to make men think and do as they should"

I'll let your words speak for themselves.


Originally posted by dontreallyOtherwise, as you say, men will do what they want. Everyone will have their own "laws", which means there will be people doing what they believe and since not all men believe the same, some will just as they please...to others.... and justice will become moot.


Every country has their own criminal law. It works just fine. You want to introduce RELIGIOUS law, and not only that but UNGODLY laws concocted by MEN not from GOD!



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by dontreallyBut you realize, politically speaking, there needs to be law.

Do you get that?

Its not that "i want to subject myself to law". There are two laws. The G-dly, divine law, that is intuitively and spiritually known, and theres the actual physical world which we live in. Currently, this world is in need of law. Otherwise, there will be anarchy.


Ceaser has his laws. And we respect them. It is not our job to make any new laws or to uphold any man made laws. Simply to obey the law of the land as long as they dont intrude on Gods law.

Adding man made laws and beurocracy to the world CREATES anarchy it doesnt solve it.

But the jewish religion is totally POLITICAL so it doesnt surprise me that you think like this. It is simply jewish supremecism and ZIONISM talking.


Originally posted by dontreallyNot until man is habituated and his soul made sensitive to divine law, can civil law be "abrogated". But were not angels. We need to know that if you do not do what you should do, there will be civil reprecussions, just as there are now.


That system already exists for the lawless ones. But you want to make it religious. This is despicable.


Originally posted by dontreallyExcept in the future, the grossness and materialism of this current age will be replaced by a society that acknowledges the unity and truth of the one G-d. Man will learn to do what they should do. There will no longer be senseless wars for political gain. There wont be bullying in schools, or this wanton objectification of woman, on TV, on the internet etc, which only promotes feelings of egotism and pleasure seeking. There wont be CEOs who make bonuses when the economy is in shambles, or a political class that believes itself to be the arbitrators of human destiny. Weve had over 4000 years of that. We have lived under that, whether in a principality or republic for way too long now....Man will live within the confines of what is true, and right, and best for mankind. Man shall live by his CONSCIENCE, as G-d intended it.


Laughable. There will be no utopia and no Earthly jewish kingdom. This is a 'jewish fable'. Christ will come and judge the Earth and then there will be eternity.

You can flower up the noahide laws all you want......it is a KILLING MACHINE.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 03:00 PM
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Originally posted by dontreallyThat is absolutely insane.

The fact that your "law" is impractable, and would by necessity lead to anarchy, your "law" isnt any law at all. A Law is something that recurs perforce. If it doesnt recur, or cant sustain itself, than it is not a law.


Christians have the law written on their hearts. You should join us.

For everyone else, they have the civil law of their country to keep them in check. It works just fine. But you'd like to step it up a few gears wouldn't you?


Originally posted by dontreallyMen should not kill. But not all men feel that we should not kill. If we leave it to you, men would kill and bring sufferring upon the innocent. A JUST world, is a world where laws exist to keep the lesser, evil, and more profane minded men from harming the innocent. Such a world will eventually weed out such coarse and destructive personalities and make the world into a better place.


And whats all this got to do with idolatry exactly?


Originally posted by dontreallyYour world only exists in your mind, as a kind of utopia, but in reality, a world without civil law is a world of disorganization, and chaos, and bound to undo itself.


We have civil law. Some communist countries even have religious law. Thats what you would like wouldn't you? A completely communist world. Communism after all being a completely 'jewish' invention. (jews who say they are jews but do LIE).


Originally posted by dontreallyThis is such a simple thing to understand. There is a reason why people who think the way you do have no power. They are for lack of better words deranged. They are not connected with the realities of this world, and so their blind idealism would result in the suffering of innocent people, a fact and reality they probably find no problem with (which make them absurdly dumb).


This is all you got eh? Name calling....

Understand......

Christians are called out of this world. We are to be seperate from it. The god of this world is satan. Anyone who wants worldly POWER and authority serves the dragon.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 03:04 PM
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reply to post by ArmorOfGod
 





You are either lying or you havn't done enough reading up on the subject. Noahide courts are subject to their supreme authority which is the sanhedrin. Again I will document from their own sources.


I have mulltiple books on the subject.

Go pick up "the rainbow covenenant" by Michael Dallen. Or the Noahide Code by Alan Cecil,

Or "Finding the G-d of Noah - the Spiritual Journery of a Baptist Minister from Christianity to the Laws Of Noach"

Do you really think that before The Torah there were no laws man had to follow? If you even read your Bible (or better yet, can read Hebrew) it explains things like Noah making an offerring to G-d. G-d favored Noah because Noah acted in Righteous ways. He conducted himself according to the laws that were given to Adam. Man knew from the beginning what he should and shouldnt do, and the Noahide laws are those laws, very simple yet extraordinarily deep. Unfortunately, brainwashed dogmatists who dont read worthwhile things, and hence have a deeply biased and partial understanding of religion, let alone their own religion, are gonna believe what they want to believe. Logic is not their compass. Being born into the "truth", or becoming emotionally enrapt in the spirit of the religion prevents them from logically analyzing and comparing. The thought of Judaism being true (not making christianity necessarily false) to both christians and muslims is unthinkable. Judaism is old and outdated.

Im a former catholic who has found much greater depth, rationality and spirituality in Judaism than what exists in christiantiy. People who study and know Hebrew understand this. Kabbalah (metaphysics) enriches ones knowledge of G-d, and creation, and thus ones place within it.

If you feel fine with Christianity. Good. Just dont mindlessly and vitriocly attack Judaism. You cant understand Talmud so i want bother posting "talmud" since you dont read Hebrew or Aramaic, or understand the overall conversation like dialectice of the arguments between the sages. You quote mistranslated, or statements out of context, or in most cases misunderstanding the whole nature of the conversations. For instance, the sages usually begin an argument with a wrong or mistaken view. Sometimes the first opinions are crass sounding, and it is often statements such as these which are quoted as Talmudic beliefs.

If one wants to see how Jews conduct themselves, get to know a Jew. If you want an exact codifice of Jewish ethics, read "shulchan Aruch", which has been translated into English many times. It is the Jewish code of Law. There is nothing in there about taking advantage of gentiles, but on the contrary, treat all decent human beings with love and compassion.

Also, people are unfair when analyzing Jewish Rabbinic texts, especially that which was written under christian perseuction. The Jews under the muslims and christians sufferred the worst ostratization and demonization, and thus humiliations, and massacres from the peoples they lived amongst, so naturally when they talk of them they talk of them as profane, evil, illogical, lustful human beings. Why else would they light synagogues on fire and kill hundreds? why else would they force them to live in a brokendown part of town, to wear badges identifying them as Jews. Why else would they be levied greater taxes because they were Jewish? They were forced, the most of them, to live in poverty, and in the case of Muslim countries were forced to clean the sewers and attend to the other maintance aspects of the cities they lived in; often on Shabbat!

Despite this, most Jews are loving towards gentiles. Of ALL the 3 Abrahamic religions, only Judaism, in Talmud Sanhedrin 105a:

"the Righteous gentiles have a place in the world to come"

What does that mean than? If Judaism concerns itself with MORALITY, and not proselytes or political power, than i would say the Jews are most sincere in their worship of G-d. Why else would they say righteous, Christians, Muslims, most of them abuse and Hurt them, still have a place in the world to come if they lived righteously, and acted with kindness and compassion towards all men.

There is thus no threat of Hell to the righteous gentile.

On the other hand, the righteous non-christians are all destined for hell, particularly the Jew( according to certain replacement theology dogmas)



edit on 18-4-2011 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 03:18 PM
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Reply to post by BetweenMyths
 


It is quite amazing how even Jews do not read their own Torah.

Half the stuff you said is bunk, according to the Torah. Will expound on that later, whenever I get Holdall.

Not saying what you wrote is false. Just the beliefs of who you wrote about are false.


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 03:27 PM
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reply to post by ArmorOfGod
 





"we need to institutionalize these laws in order to make men think and do as they should"


And whats wrong with that? You talk as if this is the same as what the Nazis or communists did, or Orwellian in nature.

Let me explain something for you. Man is a creature of Habit. Those forces which exist in him unconsciously, in the greater "man", which is the vast totality of Human culture, influences which guide and compell him to act in certain ways, this is what the Torah means by the fall of Adam. Adam was a DIVINE creature because he possessed a level of consciousnness called "conscience". When Adam sinned, he exposed his angelic level of consciouness to lower, physical, animalistic impulses. These are what the Torah refers to often as "Nephilim" or in other places as Shedim etc. These forces took root within Adam, and thus within mankind. Instead of being guided by their logical capacity - their Neshama, Man began acting carnally, and emotionally, and using his higher level of consciousness to serve, and worship his desires: Hate, Lust, Envy, Rage, Delirium, etc...

Man fell, and he remains fallen because the old and current governments of the world, the pagan world, have never seriously made an effort to extripate these elements from the human condition. They never wanted it, because they use these lower passions to exploit men. Cain build a city for his son Enoch, and enoch is Hebrew for indoctrination. The masses assemble like "one mind" and become like clay in the hands of an artist. They are unable to rise above their controllers, because knowledge is power, and the ones controlling them shape their knowledge, and thus their world. This is Maimonides explanation of sorcery: one who manipulates another persons Da'at - knowledge.

So, man must unlearn these terrible traits. The elohim of the nations, the 'passions', will be destroyed, as the Prophets predicted. These forces can only be uprooted through habit, repitition of behavior. This is something we should all do through our FREE WILL, not because some state who has deified itself demands it, like in communist russia, but because it is truly good.

Murder, is Objectively bad. We should thus cherish life
Theft is Objectively bad. We should honor others peoples property.
Adultery, and sexual liberalism is objectively ignoble, and leads to excess. We should cherish and sanctify the sexual act, in privacy, between man and wife.
Respect Nature. Respect animals and all of creation. Do not harm them
Idolatry means the projecting and objectifying ones own thoughts or beliefs. Personal philosophies often become "idols:" who people worship. Anything that contradicts the unity, sovereignty, omnipresence, omniscience, omnipotence and providence of G-d is idolatrous. Ascribing power to anything but G-d is also idolatry. This is respecting the true nature of reality. That we all exist to serve G-d, and G-d alone. No man is a slave to any man, but only to G-d. We are all equal in his eyes. Christian, Jew, Muslims, or Easterner.
Do not blasphemy G-d. Respect the power of speech, and G-ds name in this world.

And btw, there are no calls for 'decapitating' people for any law other than conscious murder.

You can say whatever you want. Its a lie. Read those above books i recommended or shut up. Cause what im saying is the truth.

Law remains in the hands of the gentiles, with no capital punishment in any matter other than murder.

These laws are only in place to promote good behavior. We discourage idolatry, but in the beginning men will not be fine or face a corpeal punishment. We dont want to fill prisions up, but on the country, have people live freely, and in joy and happiness. These laws are only strictures to keep society functioning in a healthy, and holy way. Nothing i listed was wrong. Laws, yes. There has to be a threat of punishment otherwise people will take advtange, as their wont to do. But laws will be administered with humanity and carefulness. Repeated offenders will be judged more harshly, obviously. But first time offenders, in theft for instance, will probably be forced to make recompense the way the Torah itself prescribes. To pay double that which you took.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 03:55 PM
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reply to post by ArmorOfGod
 





But the jewish religion is totally POLITICAL so it doesnt surprise me that you think like this. It is simply jewish supremecism and ZIONISM talking


you have no clue what you are talking about; ever it seems.

How is Jewish law political? LOL? How ?

And btw, Jewish law doesnt apply to non Jews. Those "G-ds" laws, which you say should be preserved, are never preserved, and have never been observed in Christian societies. What are G-ds law? the 10 commandments? Someone should have informated the christians of the Crusades, inquisitions, and conquerers of America, Africa and Australia, and elsewhere, that they shouldnt be murdering and pillaging people.

In anycase, nothing in Jewish law, or its 613 Mitvot applies to gentiles. Why are you even mentioning them?




Earthly jewish kingdom. This is a 'jewish fable'. Christ will come and judge the Earth and then there will be eternity.


What Jewish kingdom? Israel belongs to the Jews, and that is just the land of the nile to the Euphrates. That is small compared to the world. It is just the central part of the middleast. That is like 2 % of the worlds landmass.

The Jewish kingdom is not the world kingdom. True, the world will be guided spiritually by the Jewish people, as G-d commanded. Just as a priest leads a congregation. There are always leaders, who nonetless have great responsibility and obligations towards the mass; in this case, to the world, as the Torah, the bible you apparently revere says "You will be my kingdom of priests and my holy nation." A kingdom of priests implies a congegation. The congregation of nations. There is no Jewish superiority here. I am a non Jew, and i understand, because for one i know Jews, that this is merely a relationship between Jew and gentile Each has their purpose, neither is more important. The Jews were entrusted with a task. Thats it. The task is to lead the change in mankind. The end, is US, all of us, turned together in worship of G-d.




Christians have the law written on their hearts. You should join us.


Yes, ive heard that cliche. Unfotunately it doesnt mean anything.




It works just fine. But you'd like to step it up a few gears wouldn't you?


You really are clueles. Secularism is a pagan concept. The separation, the DUAL separation between a law of the heart, and a law of the state, that is IRRELIGIOUS only creates a dichotomy, and a struggle, as we know from history, between the state and the religious follower.

The state becomes "god" and it has no compunction about transgressing G-ds laws, which they always do. So, really, you giving power to the state is similar to christians giving power to the devil. You are stuck in a dualistic universe, where another force exists because you allow it to exist, not considering or anticipating the devastating consequences of that tension between state and belief.

A truly religious belief in G-d makes G-ds laws - the 7 commandments of Noah, compulsory, as aprt of society. Where the leader is religious, and his government made up of G-d fearing men and woman. This would be good because it encourages a unity in belief, and a common relationship between the governing classes and the masses. On the other hand, secularism always brings evil wolves into positions of authority. As Machiavelli prescribes, they make the effort to come off as religious, for appearances, but in truth are unscrupulous relativists with pagan values. Power becomes their sole concern.

A nation governed by the laws of G-d would be a just socieity. If you properly understood the noahide laws, you wouldnt believe them to be in any way harmful. They are logical, and liberal in many ways. People may think what they want and sports, activities and all sorts of other things would continue to exist as they do today. What would change is the promotion of sordid depravity in favor for religious integrity. Faith, love, honor, trust, Humility. These values would be exalted, and thus men will strive for these values because they recognize the inherent truth in them. They would be guided by their minds, and perception of truth, rather than their lower animal drives.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally

I have mulltiple books on the subject.

Go pick up "the rainbow covenenant" by Michael Dallen. Or the Noahide Code by Alan Cecil,

Or "Finding the G-d of Noah - the Spiritual Journery of a Baptist Minister from Christianity to the Laws Of Noach"



Great so why don't you read your books and find some data that refutes any of the points that I've raised concerning the noahides ultimate authority and punishments for the 7 laws being death...or ANY of the points I raised.

Lets stick to the topic shall we.


Originally posted by dontreally

Do you really think that before The Torah there were no laws man had to follow? If you even read your Bible (or better yet, can read Hebrew) it explains things like Noah making an offerring to G-d. G-d favored Noah because Noah acted in Righteous ways. He conducted himself according to the laws that were given to Adam. Man knew from the beginning what he should and shouldnt do, and the Noahide laws are those laws, very simple yet extraordinarily deep.


Please document from the Torah where Adam or Noah was given these 7 laws. All of them please. I'm especially interested in the setting up of law courts and capital punishment for transgressors.


Originally posted by dontreally

Unfortunately, brainwashed dogmatists who dont read worthwhile things, and hence have a deeply biased and partial understanding of religion, let alone their own religion, are gonna believe what they want to believe. Logic is not their compass. Being born into the "truth", or becoming emotionally enrapt in the spirit of the religion prevents them from logically analyzing and comparing. The thought of Judaism being true (not making christianity necessarily false) to both christians and muslims is unthinkable. Judaism is old and outdated.


Modern judaism is NOT true indeed. It is the religion of the pharisees and totally dictated by ORAL laws and traditions. The ungodly talmud is the supreme authority in this false religion NOT God's word as testified by the talmud itself:

"My son, be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah (Old Testament)."

-Talmud - Erubin 21b (Soncino edition)

"Those who devote themselves to reading the Bible exercise a certain virtue, but not very much; those who study the Mishnah exercise virtue for which they will receive a reward; those however who take upon themselves to study the Gemara exercise the highest virtue"

- Bava Metzia 33a

----------------------------

You, my friend, have been brainwashed by MEN and led astray from God's Holy Word.


Originally posted by dontreally

Im a former catholic who has found much greater depth, rationality and spirituality in Judaism than what exists in christiantiy. People who study and know Hebrew understand this. Kabbalah (metaphysics) enriches ones knowledge of G-d, and creation, and thus ones place within it.


Kaballah is nothing but ungodly mystecism and false science.


Originally posted by dontreally

If you feel fine with Christianity. Good. Just dont mindlessly and vitriocly attack Judaism.


Here we go with the defensive, victimised posture again. Listen, as a believer in Christ, I am obliged to point modern judaism out as a false religion and as antichrist. 'Jews' are lost sheep who need to recognise their King Jesus Christ.

I'm attacking the temple cult..the same that crucified Christ. Ok? It's not mindless and theres no vitriol.


Originally posted by dontreally

You cant understand Talmud so i want bother posting "talmud" since you dont read Hebrew or Aramaic, or understand the overall conversation like dialectice of the arguments between the sages.


Of course. We need the rabbis to elucidate the oral laws for us coz they are so much higher than we are. Talk about idolatry!


Originally posted by dontreally

You quote mistranslated, or statements out of context, or in most cases misunderstanding the whole nature of the conversations. For instance, the sages usually begin an argument with a wrong or mistaken view. Sometimes the first opinions are crass sounding, and it is often statements such as these which are quoted as Talmudic beliefs.


Erm...do you wanna give us some examples from any of my posts?


Originally posted by dontreally

If one wants to see how Jews conduct themselves, get to know a Jew.


Well,,,I AM A JEW of the flesh so does that help? Born and bred. Circumcision, Bar Mitzvah, shabbats...kippa...Jewish school...the whole nine yards. Only I'm a REAL Jew coz I know my King and Saviour,,,the Lord Jesus.

Fake jews follow their oral traditions and the rabbis rather than the Word of God. If they had believed Moses they would know Jesus.


Originally posted by dontreally

If you want an exact codifice of Jewish ethics, read "shulchan Aruch", which has been translated into English many times. It is the Jewish code of Law. There is nothing in there about taking advantage of gentiles, but on the contrary, treat all decent human beings with love and compassion.


Talmud is the ultimate authority in modern judaism. It says you can do whatever you like to gentiles.


Originally posted by dontreally

Also, people are unfair when analyzing Jewish Rabbinic texts, especially that which was written under christian perseuction. The Jews under the muslims and christians sufferred the worst ostratization and demonization, and thus humiliations, and massacres from the peoples they lived amongst, so naturally when they talk of them they talk of them as profane, evil, illogical, lustful human beings. Why else would they light synagogues on fire and kill hundreds? why else would they force them to live in a brokendown part of town, to wear badges identifying them as Jews. Why else would they be levied greater taxes because they were Jewish? They were forced, the most of them, to live in poverty, and in the case of Muslim countries were forced to clean the sewers and attend to the other maintance aspects of the cities they lived in; often on Shabbat!


Unbelievable. ALL Jewish persecution in the wolrd has been brought about by ZIONISM. Thats the only way they can fulfill their agenda. Observe...from the horses mouth:

“It is essential that the sufferings of Jews….become worse….this will assist in realization of our plans….I have an excellent idea….I shall induce anti-Semites to liquidate Jewish wealth….The anti-Semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-Semites shall be our best friends.”

- Theodor Herzl


Originally posted by dontreally

Despite this, most Jews are loving towards gentiles. Of ALL the 3 Abrahamic religions, only Judaism, in Talmud Sanhedrin 105a:

"the Righteous gentiles have a place in the world to come"

What does that mean than? If Judaism concerns itself with MORALITY, and not proselytes or political power, than i would say the Jews are most sincere in their worship of G-d. Why else would they say righteous, Christians, Muslims, most of them abuse and Hurt them, still have a place in the world to come if they lived righteously, and acted with kindness and compassion towards all men.


They DONT say righteous Christians and Muslims...they say righteous GENTILES. Get your facts straight. According to the noahide laws you cant be a righteous Christian because Christianity is IDOLATRY.

Here you say jews are not concerned with political power? LOLZ!

Earlier you said "There is a reason why people who think the way you do have no power."

Hellooooo??? ZIONISM>? Political power of the most horid and despicable kind.

Wake up man before its too late.


Originally posted by dontreally

There is thus no threat of Hell to the righteous gentile.


Oh I feel so much better now. Perlease!


Originally posted by dontreally

On the other hand, the righteous non-christians are all destined for hell, particularly the Jew( according to certain replacement theology dogmas)


Thats right friend. And it will be God who does the judging and carries out the sentence NOT A SANHEDRIN COURT!

10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils,
and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

Councils: 4892. sunedrion
Original Word: συνέδριον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: sunedrion
Phonetic Spelling: (soon-ed'-ree-on)
Short Definition: a council, the Sanhedrin
Definition: a council, tribunal; the Sanhedrin, the meeting place of the Sanhedrin.

4892 synédrion (from 4862 /sýn, "identified with" and hedra, "a convening, sitting together") – "a council of leading Jews (Mk 13:9, Mt 10:17), or the Jewish council at Jerusalem, the Sanhedrin (Aramaic form of synedrion), the High Court, the Senate, composed of 71 members comprising members of: high-priestly families, Pharisees learned in the law, and a lay element of Elders" (Souter).

4892 (synédrion) is also used of the smaller councils ("lower courts") throughout Israel which consisted of 23 members (cf. Mt 5:21,22).
[The Great Sanhedrin met in Jerusalem and basically lacked jurisdiction in Galilee and Samaria (Dr. Maclean, Hasting's Dict. of Ap. Ch.). Local synagogues however exercised considerable authority (see C. Bigg, St. Peter and Jude, 25).]
edit on 18-4-2011 by ArmorOfGod because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 04:10 PM
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reply to post by ArmorOfGod
 


Ok.

I dont have time for your #.

read any of the above book on Noahide laws that i mentioned. They will help your paranoid mind help better.

Also, as for "all persecutions being brought on by modern Zionism"..

Wow. Stupidity. Read Constatines Sword, or read "judeophobia" read "In Ishmaels House", or "the legacy of Jihad", or "from time immemorail". Jews sufferred 2000 years of religious persecution. Dont imagine that zionism is all of a sudden the cause for antisemitsm, when 2000 years of it existed before Theodre Herzl articulated it in political terms. Also, Judaism is a land centered religion. The Torah has laws that apply only in Israel. Judaism thus = Zionism, in that the Jews have been anticipating to return to Israel since their formal expulsion by the Romans in 150 CE.

And for a Jew, you are one arrogant, immature, and completely credulous to fall for the proseltyizations of christian missionaries.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 04:27 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally
That is absolutely insane.

The fact that your "law" is impractable, and would by necessity lead to anarchy, your "law" isnt any law at all. A Law is something that recurs perforce. If it doesnt recur, or cant sustain itself, than it is not a law.


So who is to enforce this set of laws of yours? Love is the Law because it enforces itself. It is a divine law for this reason. It does not rely on Man's faulty judgement to enforce it, it is sure and sturdy as the Law of Gravity. If you love others, you will be loved. If you act unlovingly to others, they will not love you. If you slip into judging others, others will judge you like wise. That is how a Divine Law works.


Originally posted by dontreally
Men should not kill. But not all men feel that we should not kill. If we leave it to you, men would kill and bring sufferring upon the innocent. A JUST world, is a world where laws exist to keep the lesser, evil, and more profane minded men from harming the innocent. Such a world will eventually weed out such coarse and destructive personalities and make the world into a better place.


Of course men kill. We refuse to abide by the Divine Law. We allow some men to grow up rich, and some to suffer in poverty. We welcome some into our temples, and shut others out. We value some for their contributions, while deeming others unworthy. You reap what you sow. Choose to ignore God's law to love one another and your world will rebel against you for it.

What you propose is to say screw the divine, Man will rule Man. I am here to tell you, no he will NOT.


Originally posted by dontreally
Your world only exists in your mind, as a kind of utopia, but in reality, a world without civil law is a world of disorganization, and chaos, and bound to undo itself.


Yes, it is a world in my mind. It is the Kingdom of Heaven. If you do not believe it is here, don't believe me. All I ask is for you to watch. The world WILL prove my words my friend.


Originally posted by dontreally
This is such a simple thing to understand. There is a reason why people who think the way you do have no power. They are for lack of better words deranged. They are not connected with the realities of this world, and so their blind idealism would result in the suffering of innocent people, a fact and reality they probably find no problem with (which make them absurdly dumb).


Who is innocent? Do you believe yourself to be innocent of the evils of the world? Don't fill yourself with such self-righteousness. Your hands are as bloody as a butchers for the world we have. There are no innocents.

What power do you think you have? Can you command a fleet of angels to come enforce these laws for you? Can you with one word change the mind of another to accept your world view? Can you with a thought increase your stature by one inch? You have no power.

What power do I have? If you understood the power love you would not mock it so.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 05:34 PM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 





What you propose is to say screw the divine, Man will rule Man. I am here to tell you, no he will NOT.


What are you talking about? Please read carefully.

I am obviously a very religious person. The laws im talking about are specifically negative in nature. Forbidding murder, theft. How do you get

"What you propose is to say screw the divine, Man will rule Man. I am here to tell you, no he will NOT. "

From that? So in order to follow the divine, man isnt supposed to institute laws to keep society running with organization and civility?

This is all im saying. The 7 noahide laws are these laws. They prevent all the evils that can arise in a society by notifying the person that he will be punished in THIS world aswell. One who murders will be punished in the next world. In order to allay the severity of that punishment, this soul will be taken from his body. He will be killed physically. Spiritually, his punishment will have become greatly reduced. He has been dealt what he deserves. He took someone elses right to life, so he forfeits his aswell. A law of cause and effect.




If you do not believe it is here, don't believe me.


It is in your world, but not ours. It can only be in yours by restricting behavior, correct? You cannot be a good person without doing that which you know you should not do. Your feelings are not G-d. The mind rules the heart, and so lives above it, and by it.

The only way to incarnate the kingdom of Heaven into this world, and include this world within G-ds divine domain, is to hate evil with as much ardor as we love Good. As solomon says "be not too righteous", ie; do not be merciful to merciless people. And as the Talmud says about Purim "on purim one is to drink where he doesnt know the difference between "Cursed be Haman" and Blessed be Mordechai", which means that one should see both these actions as equal, G-dly injunctions. Those who are evil, and do evil deserve to be cursed. They destroy creation. Likewise, one should love good, and do good.

This is all incredibly sensible, and righteous.

Only people with very strange and warped concepts of morality think differently. I already know that you would look at the greatest disfunction and see beautiful order, despite the pain and sufferring of such a life. So, your gnostic, irrational philosophy is really cruel, and enormously vain. It also make absolutely no sense.




Who is innocent? Do you believe yourself to be innocent of the evils of the world? Don't fill yourself with such self-righteousness. Your hands are as bloody as a butchers for the world we have. There are no innocents.


Another absurd statement.

I am not innocent. I have offended G-d in many ways. I lie often, im inconsistent with my studying, i surrender to feelings of lust, envy, anger etc... But i dont steal, and i dont kill. The point is is that there are varying degrees of evil. One can do alot ie; cause harm to many people, or he can do a little. The punishment, is commensurate with the damage caused. Just because we all sin, which i never said we are beyond, but infact is an inherent part of our human condition, doesnt mean should not struggle against it. Theres no reason why we can do good, and seek good, but when we fall, we gather ourselves together and resolve to make a better effort. Just like riding a bicycle. You dont just dont give up and say "evil is good" or good is evil, and neither make a difference, and none of us are responsible. That is just a brazen axcuse to do as you please.



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 06:07 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally
I am obviously a very religious person. The laws im talking about are specifically negative in nature. Forbidding murder, theft. How do you get

"What you propose is to say screw the divine, Man will rule Man. I am here to tell you, no he will NOT. "

From that? So in order to follow the divine, man isnt supposed to institute laws to keep society running with organization and civility?


No Man has any right to try to rule another man. Who gave anyone a right to tell another what to do. A Divine Law does not need man to enforce it. It enforces itself.

Am I condoning murder? No. But, I also have no right to prevent it. I cannot prevent it or I would have already. The only thing I can do is willingly agree to the Divine Law, Love one another. Thus I love even the murderer and show that love to him. Through love, he will reform himself. Through love, he can be reasoned with. Through love, that behavior can be changed by him willingly, not through the force of another man.


Originally posted by dontreally
This is all im saying. The 7 noahide laws are these laws. They prevent all the evils that can arise in a society by notifying the person that he will be punished in THIS world aswell. One who murders will be punished in the next world. In order to allay the severity of that punishment, this soul will be taken from his body. He will be killed physically. Spiritually, his punishment will have become greatly reduced. He has been dealt what he deserves. He took someone elses right to life, so he forfeits his aswell. A law of cause and effect.


Who will kill the murderer? Who will murder to enforce the law against murder? No man has the right.



Originally posted by dontreally
It is in your world, but not ours. It can only be in yours by restricting behavior, correct? You cannot be a good person without doing that which you know you should not do. Your feelings are not G-d. The mind rules the heart, and so lives above it, and by it.


Well I am inviting all to join me in my world. Your world has become corrupted by Man ruling Man. My world is ruled by the divine. How can you say God is not the feelings and resides in the mind. Can you reason God? Can you logically prove God? No and No. The divine is FELT. You must open your heart to the possibility and then you feel it's presence in the world around you. Then again, maybe this is just me.


Originally posted by dontreally
The only way to incarnate the kingdom of Heaven into this world, and include this world within G-ds divine domain, is to hate evil with as much ardor as we love Good.


What happened when Man decided to taste the fruit of good and evil? Can't you see that Man is not the judge? That thinking he is the judge is what causes all of our social problems. We are to obey God's law. That is to love one another. That is all we are capable of doing. No man has the divines all seeing eye to make a proper judgement about anything.


Originally posted by dontreally
As solomon says "be not too righteous", ie; do not be merciful to merciless people. And as the Talmud says about Purim "on purim one is to drink where he doesnt know the difference between "Cursed be Haman" and Blessed be Mordechai", which means that one should see both these actions as equal, G-dly injunctions. Those who are evil, and do evil deserve to be cursed. They destroy creation. Likewise, one should love good, and do good.


No man is righteous, not Solomon, not Moses, not Job, none.


Originally posted by dontreally
This is all incredibly sensible, and righteous.

Only people with very strange and warped concepts of morality think differently. I already know that you would look at the greatest disfunction and see beautiful order, despite the pain and sufferring of such a life. So, your gnostic, irrational philosophy is really cruel, and enormously vain. It also make absolutely no sense.


I am vain? Who is vain, one who claims to have high morality, or one who knows he is not the judge of morality? Who is cruel, one who holds his idea of morality over all others, or one who loves all others regardless of their morality?



Originally posted by dontreally
I am not innocent. I have offended G-d in many ways. I lie often, im inconsistent with my studying, i surrender to feelings of lust, envy, anger etc... But i dont steal, and i dont kill. The point is is that there are varying degrees of evil. One can do alot ie; cause harm to many people, or he can do a little. The punishment, is commensurate with the damage caused. Just because we all sin, which i never said we are beyond, but infact is an inherent part of our human condition, doesnt mean should not struggle against it. Theres no reason why we can do good, and seek good, but when we fall, we gather ourselves together and resolve to make a better effort. Just like riding a bicycle. You dont just dont give up and say "evil is good" or good is evil, and neither make a difference, and none of us are responsible. That is just a brazen axcuse to do as you please.


You are NOT the judge. Let him who is without Sin judge.

With Love,

Your Brother
edit on 18-4-2011 by IAMIAM because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 09:10 PM
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Reply to post by ArmorOfGod
 


Are you what some label as a Messianic Jew?




 
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