The Noahide Laws

reply to post by IAMIAM

I am vain? Who is vain, one who claims to have high morality, or one who knows he is not the judge of morality? Who is cruel, one who holds his idea of morality over all others, or one who loves all others regardless of their morality?

How bout we analyze this idea in terms of consequences.

Yours
"or one who knows he is not the judge of morality'"
"or one who loves all others regardless of their morality?"

Lets say a little girl is kidnapped and murdered by a sex offendor. Are you to say that this person would prefer your morality, of his action having no real moral meaning, over mine, which clarifies and separates good from evil? Therefore i would condemn, and call evil this mans behavior, recognizing the injustice that was committed.

Your mentality rejects separation, and distinctions, even though they exist as much as the unity of G-ds existence. TRUE unity is knowing when to act when and where. If i am with a group of people and were talking about spirituality, the aim is obviously to speak of oneness and feel at one with G-d. But if im rendering a legal decision i sure as hell better be able to make distinctions between right, and wrong, just and unjust. This is an issue of particularity, where the ultimate oneness of all things is to be put aside, and this victim be avenged for the wrong done to him. Real time. In the here and now where the balance in creation can be made correct.

Normal people function this way. And yes i do think it is quite incredibly vain to deny a blatant reality we all experience. Evil is wrong, and causing sufferring is wrong. My condemnation of it affirms my conviction towards good. So indeed my position is not cruel. Why would you, someone who doesnt even acknowledge morality even use a moralistic type word like "cruel"? It implies value, and apparently to you there is no such thing as value, because there is no such thing as not valuable. Your world denies qualities, and thus denies anything but your fixed and rigid 'everything is the same' fanaticism.

Your position is self righteous to a negative degree. How can i say someone is wrong? What a ridiculous question which deserves to be shot down because if its obscene simplicity. Why do people kill? Why am i spiritual, yet others materialistic? Why are my values and understanding better than most? Everyone thinks differently, and no one is required to approach G-d in the same way. But, Natural, logical moral laws must be instituted to preserve the quality of life for all. To prevent murder, we shall punish it. To prevent theft, we shall punish it. Also, we should teach good spiritual values that encourage respect for life, and for other peoples property, and the spiritual significance of these things.

You have this very ackward almost schizophrenic inability to make distinctions IAM. Tell me, have you ever talked with spirits? I find those of you which make have daily spiritual sessions with abstract intelligences, "angels" if you will, to have a very unhealthy attitude towards this world. Many come off as downright insane.

Originally posted by dontreally

And whats wrong with that? You talk as if this is the same as what the Nazis or communists did, or Orwellian in nature.

Thats EXACTLY what it is. You've hit the nail right on the head. Communism is a talmudic invention and the Nazis were funded by zionist banks in London and Wall Street. Same people.

Originally posted by dontreally

Let me explain something for you. Man is a creature of Habit. Those forces which exist in him unconsciously, in the greater "man", which is the vast totality of Human culture, influences which guide and compell him to act in certain ways, this is what the Torah means by the fall of Adam. Adam was a DIVINE creature because he possessed a level of consciousnness called "conscience". When Adam sinned, he exposed his angelic level of consciouness to lower, physical, animalistic impulses. These are what the Torah refers to often as "Nephilim" or in other places as Shedim etc. These forces took root within Adam, and thus within mankind. Instead of being guided by their logical capacity - their Neshama, Man began acting carnally, and emotionally, and using his higher level of consciousness to serve, and worship his desires: Hate, Lust, Envy, Rage, Delirium, etc...

I'm not interested in your kabbalhic mystecism. Adam was divine? Huh? And you want to enforce a prohibition of IDOLATRY on gentiles?

Originally posted by dontreally

Man fell, and he remains fallen because the old and current governments of the world, the pagan world, have never seriously made an effort to extripate these elements from the human condition.

Agreed, the pagan worls is rooted in sin. That includes the Roman Catholic church that YOU class as Christianity...which practices idolatry in the form of Mary worship and bowing down to statues. I'm not surprised you have a warped view of the true faith having come from that judaized mess of a system.

Originally posted by dontreally

They never wanted it, because they use these lower passions to exploit men. Cain build a city for his son Enoch, and enoch is Hebrew for indoctrination. The masses assemble like "one mind" and become like clay in the hands of an artist. They are unable to rise above their controllers, because knowledge is power, and the ones controlling them shape their knowledge, and thus their world. This is Maimonides explanation of sorcery: one who manipulates another persons Da'at - knowledge.

Jesus overcame this world you speak of. He accomplished this already. It is finished.

Originally posted by dontreally

So, man must unlearn these terrible traits. The elohim of the nations, the 'passions', will be destroyed, as the Prophets predicted. These forces can only be uprooted through habit, repitition of behavior. This is something we should all do through our FREE WILL, not because some state who has deified itself demands it, like in communist russia, but because it is truly good.

And for those who refuse to join your noahide system by free will? They will be MURDERED. En masse if necessary. This is what the talmud teaches. The fruit of your system is DEATH.

Originally posted by dontreally

Murder, is Objectively bad. We should thus cherish life
Theft is Objectively bad. We should honor others peoples property.
Adultery, and sexual liberalism is objectively ignoble, and leads to excess. We should cherish and sanctify the sexual act, in privacy, between man and wife.
Respect Nature. Respect animals and all of creation. Do not harm them

All of this is the fruit of the spirit in Christ Jesus. Whats next?

Originally posted by dontreally

Idolatry means the projecting and objectifying ones own thoughts or beliefs. Personal philosophies often become "idols:" who people worship. Anything that contradicts the unity, sovereignty, omnipresence, omniscience, omnipotence and providence of G-d is idolatrous. Ascribing power to anything but G-d is also idolatry. This is respecting the true nature of reality. That we all exist to serve G-d, and G-d alone. No man is a slave to any man, but only to G-d. We are all equal in his eyes. Christian, Jew, Muslims, or Easterner.

Right now, talmudic authorities will decide what is idolatry and they class anything other than worship of the talmudic g-d as such. So that means ALL other religions are classed as authority including Christianity, Islam and 'Easterners'. The punishment, when enforced...is DEATH BY BEHEADING.

Originally posted by dontreally

Do not blasphemy G-d. Respect the power of speech, and G-ds name in this world.

Christianity is also classed as blasphemy by the rabbis. Just as Jesus was crucified for blasphemy so will His followers.

Originally posted by dontreally

And btw, there are no calls for 'decapitating' people for any law other than conscious murder.

You can say whatever you want. Its a lie. Read those above books i recommended or shut up. Cause what im saying is the truth.

Law remains in the hands of the gentiles, with no capital punishment in any matter other than murder.

Wow. Please continue to communicate with members in this way. I wont be reporting anyting to the moderators. I want everyone to see the kind of fruit you produce. I want you to continue to expose yourself.

I've shown you documentation from YOUR OWN SOURCES that say death by beheading is the punishment for ANY of the 7 laws.

Heres some more:

SOURCE: Jews and Hasidic Gentiles

Campaign to abolish X-mas
celebration by gentiles


Why Torah obligates all Jews in this campaign:

"...according to the known Jewish ruling that Christians are idol worshippers." (Likkutei Sichos 37:198)

A gentile...is liable for the death penalty...if he has invented a religious holiday for himself...The general principle is we do not allow them to make new religious rituals and to make 'mitzvahs' for themselves by their own devices. Rather they may either become a Ger Tzeddek and accept all the Mitvahs; or he (the Noahide) should stand fast in his Torah (the seven Noahide Laws) without adding or diminishing...and if he does make some new 'mitzvah,' we lash him, punish him, and inform him that he is obligated with the death penalty for this..." (Rambam Mishne Torah—Hilchos Melachim 10:9)

-----------------------------------------------

JUST FOR CELEBRATING CHRISTMAS PEOPLE ARE LIABLE FOR THE DEATH PENALTY.

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SOURSE: Jewish Encyclopedia

"With but a few exceptions, the punishment meted out to a Noachid for the transgression of any of the seven laws is decapitation"

AND HERE:

SOURCE: Babylonian Talmud

"in speaking of heathens, when the Tanna teaches that they are forbidden to do something, he ipso facto teaches that it is punishable by death; for only in speaking of Jews is it necessary to distinguish between prohibition and punishment. "

- Sanhedrin 57a (Babylonian talmud)

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So are the talmud and the jewish encyclopedia lying too?! Do they know what they are talking about?

Now you provide all the documentation you want that says the death penalty is only for murder. Go ahead I'm waiting.

Originally posted by dontreally

These laws are only in place to promote good behavior. We discourage idolatry, but in the beginning men will not be fine or face a corpeal punishment. We dont want to fill prisions up, but on the country, have people live freely, and in joy and happiness. These laws are only strictures to keep society functioning in a healthy, and holy way. Nothing i listed was wrong. Laws, yes. There has to be a threat of punishment otherwise people will take advtange, as their wont to do. But laws will be administered with humanity and carefulness. Repeated offenders will be judged more harshly, obviously. But first time offenders, in theft for instance, will probably be forced to make recompense the way the Torah itself prescribes. To pay double that which you took.

Carry on covering for the Mother of Harlots. You will drink of her cup of wrath.

The laws are there to EXECUTE CHRISTIANS or to turn people away from the faith. All that is needed is your talmudic NWO (Noahide World Order) and enforcement will begin.

Please ask for documentation of talmudic authorities planning for a one world government (U.N.) enforcing the noahide laws I will be happy to oblige.

Originally posted by dontreally

you have no clue what you are talking about; ever it seems.

How is Jewish law political? LOL? How ?

Because jewish law and ZIONISM are one and the same beast of course!

WIKI: "Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is a Jewish political movement that, in its broadest sense, has supported the self-determination of the Jewish people in a sovereign Jewish national homeland"

Originally posted by dontreally

And btw, Jewish law doesnt apply to non Jews.

'jewish law' is TALMUDISM. Noahide laws are talmudism. Yes they dont apply to us, ANY of us...and those who call themselves 'jews' INCLUDED. If they stuck to Moses and the prophets they would know their King Jesus Christ......LIKE ME. Thank God He opened my eyes.

Originally posted by dontreally

Those "G-ds" laws, which you say should be preserved, are never preserved, and have never been observed in Christian societies. What are G-ds law? the 10 commandments? Someone should have informated the christians of the Crusades, inquisitions, and conquerers of America, Africa and Australia, and elsewhere, that they shouldnt be murdering and pillaging people.

Dont lump true believers in with the judaized and pagan Catholics please.

Many profess Christianity but know not God. They do terrible acts in His name. But they are not Christian. Christians love God and love others.

Originally posted by dontreally

In anycase, nothing in Jewish law, or its 613 Mitvot applies to gentiles. Why are you even mentioning them?

Huh? Jesus never abolished the law. God doesn't change what He likes and what He doesnt. The law of Moses is relavant to all people. The moral law of God stands all through time. The law is good and righteous. The only thing that has changed is that believers in Christ are not JUSTIFIED by observance of any written law and do not need to strive to conciously follow the written law. We love God and love others and the law is kept in our hearts as a natural fruit of our faith.

Originally posted by dontreally

What Jewish kingdom? Israel belongs to the Jews, and that is just the land of the nile to the Euphrates. That is small compared to the world. It is just the central part of the middleast. That is like 2 % of the worlds landmass.

Your house was made DESOLATE. The land you call israel is an ABOMINATION to God. All land rights were up by the time of Joshua. All promises that God made to the House of Israel came to pass. The Hebrews had their chance and they blew it. Then God gave them His Son and they killed Him. Now they get the same deal as everyone else. ACCEPT JESUS IN SPIRIT OR BE THROWN INTO THE FIRE.

Originally posted by dontreally

The Jewish kingdom is not the world kingdom. True, the world will be guided spiritually by the Jewish people, as G-d commanded. Just as a priest leads a congregation. There are always leaders, who nonetless have great responsibility and obligations towards the mass; in this case, to the world, as the Torah, the bible you apparently revere says "You will be my kingdom of priests and my holy nation." A kingdom of priests implies a congegation. The congregation of nations. There is no Jewish superiority here. I am a non Jew, and i understand, because for one i know Jews, that this is merely a relationship between Jew and gentile Each has their purpose, neither is more important. The Jews were entrusted with a task. Thats it. The task is to lead the change in mankind. The end, is US, all of us, turned together in worship of G-d.

The 'jews' killed their King and embraced the oral traditions of their rabbis. They are no longer in a position to be priests to the world. They are apostate.

You say no jewish superiority but say that the jews must LEAD MANKIND and this involves MAKING them think and behave how they 'should' (according to the talmud). And if they dont accept the 7 laws they are to be killed.

The hypocrisy is astounding.

Originally posted by dontreally

Yes, ive heard that cliche. Unfotunately it doesnt mean anything.

With your RCC background that doesnt surprise me in the last.

Originally posted by dontreally

You really are clueles. Secularism is a pagan concept. The separation, the DUAL separation between a law of the heart, and a law of the state, that is IRRELIGIOUS only creates a dichotomy, and a struggle, as we know from history, between the state and the religious follower.

So the anser is to murder those who transgress your 7 talmudic laws? Your RELIGIOUS laws? And you dont think this will incite chaos and struggle? You are heavily deceived if you think these laws are the answer my friend.

Originally posted by dontreally

The state becomes "god" and it has no compunction about transgressing G-ds laws, which they always do. So, really, you giving power to the state is similar to christians giving power to the devil. You are stuck in a dualistic universe, where another force exists because you allow it to exist, not considering or anticipating the devastating consequences of that tension between state and belief.

By supplanting talmudic laws into the state laws you are giving power to the state to enforce MANS laws not God's laws. Do you understand this? Noahide laws are NOT from God. You want to make talmudic ORAL tradition the state law of every country in the world. Mans laws. And you think God will be pleased with this?

Originally posted by dontreally

A truly religious belief in G-d makes G-ds laws - the 7 commandments of Noah, compulsory, as aprt of society. Where the leader is religious, and his government made up of G-d fearing men and woman. This would be good because it encourages a unity in belief, and a common relationship between the governing classes and the masses.

Not God's laws. Talmudic laws of rabbinic oral tradition. The laws are not in God's Word. Who wants to have unity in belief with apostate jews? Not me. And the price I have to pay for making my choice? Death by beheading.

Originally posted by dontreally

On the other hand, secularism always brings evil wolves into positions of authority. As Machiavelli prescribes, they make the effort to come off as religious, for appearances, but in truth are unscrupulous relativists with pagan values. Power becomes their sole concern.

I give to Ceaser what is his and I give to God what is His. I have no interest with politics. I preach the good news of the Kingdom of Heaven and let people decide for themselves. Let them take their own path. You will get no-where threatening people if they dont line up with your religious views. You will only end up with blood on your hands. And you WILL be judged for that.

Originally posted by dontreally

A nation governed by the laws of G-d would be a just socieity.

Absolutely. But the noahides are not from God. Unless you can show me where these 7 laws were given to manking in God's Word? Show me the list of 7 please.

Originally posted by dontreally

If you properly understood the noahide laws, you wouldnt believe them to be in any way harmful. They are logical, and liberal in many ways. People may think what they want and sports, activities and all sorts of other things would continue to exist as they do today.

Great, but if they want to worship Jesus then they are classed as idolaters and are faced with decapitation by the sword. But they can still watch sports! so.....hoorah!

Originally posted by dontreally

What would change is the promotion of sordid depravity in favor for religious integrity. Faith, love, honor, trust, Humility. These values would be exalted, and thus men will strive for these values because they recognize the inherent truth in them. They would be guided by their minds, and perception of truth, rather than their lower animal drives.

No...what would change is that people will be faced with a choice. Either join the new noahide world order and renounce Jesus name....or DIE BY THE SWORD. Your not fooling anyone with your fake piousness.

If you have time please address any of the documentation I've brought forward and tell me if its correct or not or if they are lying. Thanks.

Originally posted by dontreally

Ok.

I dont have time for your #.

read any of the above book on Noahide laws that i mentioned. They will help your paranoid mind help better.

So you dont have even a single wuote from your vast library that can refute any of the verified documentation I've brought forward? Figures.

Originally posted by dontreally

Also, as for "all persecutions being brought on by modern Zionism"..

Wow. Stupidity. Read Constatines Sword, or read "judeophobia" read "In Ishmaels House", or "the legacy of Jihad", or "from time immemorail". Jews sufferred 2000 years of religious persecution. Dont imagine that zionism is all of a sudden the cause for antisemitsm, when 2000 years of it existed before Theodre Herzl articulated it in political terms.

Yeah coz before Herzyl articulated it....Pharisees were playing the same trick with antisemitism. It's an old ploy. False flag antisemitism. Works every time.

So, point is.....was Herzyl lying when he said that he would use this tool to oppress jews and fulfill the zionist agenda?

Originally posted by dontreally

Also, Judaism is a land centered religion. The Torah has laws that apply only in Israel. Judaism thus = Zionism, in that the Jews have been anticipating to return to Israel since their formal expulsion by the Romans in 150 CE.

Judaism thus = Zionism
Judaism thus = Zionism
Judaism thus = Zionism

EXACTLY. Modern judaism is totally political and bent on world domination by FORCE.

It is a false religion. They worship the land of israel as an idol. Those who call themselves jews need to recognise their King Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by dontreally

What are you talking about? Please read carefully.

I am obviously a very religious person.

Can you get more puffed up or pharisaical than this?

Originally posted by dontreally

The laws im talking about are specifically negative in nature. Forbidding murder, theft. How do you get

"What you propose is to say screw the divine, Man will rule Man. I am here to tell you, no he will NOT. "

From that? So in order to follow the divine, man isnt supposed to institute laws to keep society running with organization and civility?

Any country can institute whatever civil laws they want. But you want to tell people which God to worship. And if they dont comply...DEATH. It is pure racism and prejudice.

Originally posted by dontreally

This is all im saying. The 7 noahide laws are these laws. They prevent all the evils that can arise in a society by notifying the person that he will be punished in THIS world aswell. One who murders will be punished in the next world. In order to allay the severity of that punishment, this soul will be taken from his body. He will be killed physically. Spiritually, his punishment will have become greatly reduced. He has been dealt what he deserves. He took someone elses right to life, so he forfeits his aswell. A law of cause and effect.

Unbelievable how you can offhandedly condone MURDER.

Do you believe in God's REAL law?

THOU-SHALT-NOT-KILL.

Originally posted by dontreally

It is in your world, but not ours. It can only be in yours by restricting behavior, correct? You cannot be a good person without doing that which you know you should not do. Your feelings are not G-d. The mind rules the heart, and so lives above it, and by it.

The only way to incarnate the kingdom of Heaven into this world, and include this world within G-ds divine domain, is to hate evil with as much ardor as we love Good. As solomon says "be not too righteous", ie; do not be merciful to merciless people. And as the Talmud says about Purim "on purim one is to drink where he doesnt know the difference between "Cursed be Haman" and Blessed be Mordechai", which means that one should see both these actions as equal, G-dly injunctions. Those who are evil, and do evil deserve to be cursed. They destroy creation. Likewise, one should love good, and do good.

This is all incredibly sensible, and righteous.

No it's not. It's HATEFUL...PYSCOPATHIC...and UNGODLY.

Originally posted by dontreally

Only people with very strange and warped concepts of morality think differently. I already know that you would look at the greatest disfunction and see beautiful order, despite the pain and sufferring of such a life. So, your gnostic, irrational philosophy is really cruel, and enormously vain. It also make absolutely no sense.

Love makes no sense to the unbeliever. The Gospel of the Lord is as foolishness to those who think themselves worldly wise.

Originally posted by dontreally

I am not innocent. I have offended G-d in many ways. I lie often, im inconsistent with my studying, i surrender to feelings of lust, envy, anger etc... But i dont steal, and i dont kill. The point is is that there are varying degrees of evil. One can do alot ie; cause harm to many people, or he can do a little. The punishment, is commensurate with the damage caused. Just because we all sin, which i never said we are beyond, but infact is an inherent part of our human condition, doesnt mean should not struggle against it. Theres no reason why we can do good, and seek good, but when we fall, we gather ourselves together and resolve to make a better effort. Just like riding a bicycle. You dont just dont give up and say "evil is good" or good is evil, and neither make a difference, and none of us are responsible. That is just a brazen axcuse to do as you please.

Your dialectic is boring.

Any God other than the talmudic g-od = idolatry in the eyes of the rabbis = DECAPITATION.

The noahide world order means full control and enforcement of these laws. All will come to pass.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Are you what some label as a Messianic Jew?

I was born and brought up in the temple cult. So yes I was part of that religious system. I am of the flesh circumcision. I believe in the Messiah Jesus. If that makes me a messianic jew then so be it.

It's not about race. 'Jews' are not a race of people. Judaism is a cult.

Originally posted by dontreally

How bout we analyze this idea in terms of consequences.

Yours
"or one who knows he is not the judge of morality'"
"or one who loves all others regardless of their morality?"

Lets say a little girl is kidnapped and murdered by a sex offendor. Are you to say that this person would prefer your morality, of his action having no real moral meaning, over mine, which clarifies and separates good from evil? Therefore i would condemn, and call evil this mans behavior, recognizing the injustice that was committed.

So your saying that Christians would not call this an evil act? Lolz@your dialectic. It doesnt work on spirit filled Christians OR on seasoned conspiracy researchers who have learnt to watch out for this ploy.

We condemn the act and we leave the punishment to those who have chosen the path of law enforcement. It's not our concern. We do not exercise punishment or enforce laws over others.

Why dont you want to talk about idolatry or blasphemy. Where does that fit into the dialectic? Are buddhists EVIL people who need be punished physically? How about Christians? Should people be dragged into courts simply for their choice of God?

.....and BEHEADED for sticking to their choice?

Originally posted by dontreally

Your mentality rejects separation, and distinctions, even though they exist as much as the unity of G-ds existence. TRUE unity is knowing when to act when and where. If i am with a group of people and were talking about spirituality, the aim is obviously to speak of oneness and feel at one with G-d. But if im rendering a legal decision i sure as hell better be able to make distinctions between right, and wrong, just and unjust. This is an issue of particularity, where the ultimate oneness of all things is to be put aside, and this victim be avenged for the wrong done to him. Real time. In the here and now where the balance in creation can be made correct.

REVENGE! Hatred. Worldly emotions. This is what motivates you. And you wrap it up in 'unity' and 'oneness'. Sickening.

Originally posted by dontreally

Normal people function this way. And yes i do think it is quite incredibly vain to deny a blatant reality we all experience. Evil is wrong, and causing sufferring is wrong. My condemnation of it affirms my conviction towards good. So indeed my position is not cruel. Why would you, someone who doesnt even acknowledge morality even use a moralistic type word like "cruel"? It implies value, and apparently to you there is no such thing as value, because there is no such thing as not valuable. Your world denies qualities, and thus denies anything but your fixed and rigid 'everything is the same' fanaticism.

Hehehehe...your attempts to misrepresent this posters position is only mildly amusing.

How does beheading people for their choice of God help to stamp out suffering in the world?

More laws = more suffering.

Originally posted by dontreally

Your position is self righteous to a negative degree. How can i say someone is wrong? What a ridiculous question which deserves to be shot down because if its obscene simplicity. Why do people kill? Why am i spiritual, yet others materialistic? Why are my values and understanding better than most? Everyone thinks differently, and no one is required to approach G-d in the same way. But, Natural, logical moral laws must be instituted to preserve the quality of life for all. To prevent murder, we shall punish it. To prevent theft, we shall punish it. Also, we should teach good spiritual values that encourage respect for life, and for other peoples property, and the spiritual significance of these things.

And if people dont get it...well....we'll just have to CUT THEIR HEADS OFF! Yay!

Originally posted by dontreally

You have this very ackward almost schizophrenic inability to make distinctions IAM.

Incredible hypocrisy yet again.

Originally posted by dontreally

I am vain? Who is vain, one who claims to have high morality, or one who knows he is not the judge of morality? Who is cruel, one who holds his idea of morality over all others, or one who loves all others regardless of their morality?

How bout we analyze this idea in terms of consequences.

Yours
"or one who knows he is not the judge of morality'"
"or one who loves all others regardless of their morality?"

Lets say a little girl is kidnapped and murdered by a sex offendor. Are you to say that this person would prefer your morality, of his action having no real moral meaning, over mine, which clarifies and separates good from evil? Therefore i would condemn, and call evil this mans behavior, recognizing the injustice that was committed.

Why is the little girl who was kidnapped and murdered of more value than the person who kidnapped and murdered her? The little girl is dead and gone, her suffering is over. The murderer is still alive and suffers greatly for it is only immense suffering that would lead one to commit such a heinous act. Will murdering the murderer heal the world? No. It will only send a message to others who suffer so to be more careful and deliberate in their acts that they will not get caught. It will drive those who suffer under ground for they know that the world does not want to hear of their suffering. They are unworthy of our love. They are shamed and the truth of their suffering is shamed. Thus, we live in a world of lies.

Why did Cain kill Abel? Because he felt that God favored Abel over him. God, the creator of all that there is, does not choose between his children. He is within us all, and we are all within him. He cannot separate from himself. The mark of Cain is the shame a murderer carries. It is the shame put on him by society. To end this curse, society must not shame the act of murder. Rather we should get to the source of the suffering and heal what pain causes one to murder. Only then will Man be redeemed. Man's redemption is through love. We never fell, we only think we are fallen. I see everyone as perfect, love them ALL as if they are perfect, and thus they learn to act perfectly.

Originally posted by dontreally
Your mentality rejects separation, and distinctions, even though they exist as much as the unity of G-ds existence. TRUE unity is knowing when to act when and where. If i am with a group of people and were talking about spirituality, the aim is obviously to speak of oneness and feel at one with G-d. But if im rendering a legal decision i sure as hell better be able to make distinctions between right, and wrong, just and unjust. This is an issue of particularity, where the ultimate oneness of all things is to be put aside, and this victim be avenged for the wrong done to him. Real time. In the here and now where the balance in creation can be made correct.

Yes, I do reject distinctions and separations. My God is the omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omniscient spirit of ALL. He is within everything and everything is within him. I see no distinction or separation and worship him Wholly. Anything lesser can never be the greater. Which of us is worshipping a lesser being my friend?

Originally posted by dontreally
Normal people function this way. And yes i do think it is quite incredibly vain to deny a blatant reality we all experience. Evil is wrong, and causing sufferring is wrong. My condemnation of it affirms my conviction towards good. So indeed my position is not cruel. Why would you, someone who doesnt even acknowledge morality even use a moralistic type word like "cruel"? It implies value, and apparently to you there is no such thing as value, because there is no such thing as not valuable. Your world denies qualities, and thus denies anything but your fixed and rigid 'everything is the same' fanaticism.

You are drunk on the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Stop eating that fruit. It will kill you.

Originally posted by dontreally
Your position is self righteous to a negative degree. How can i say someone is wrong? What a ridiculous question which deserves to be shot down because if its obscene simplicity. Why do people kill? Why am i spiritual, yet others materialistic? Why are my values and understanding better than most? Everyone thinks differently, and no one is required to approach G-d in the same way. But, Natural, logical moral laws must be instituted to preserve the quality of life for all. To prevent murder, we shall punish it. To prevent theft, we shall punish it. Also, we should teach good spiritual values that encourage respect for life, and for other peoples property, and the spiritual significance of these things.

Your heart is a very cold one my friend. I do not know what tragedies you have seen in life to harden it so. I do hope you find a way to rise above the pain and to soften your heart, and allow the love to flow freely.

Originally posted by dontreally
You have this very ackward almost schizophrenic inability to make distinctions IAM. Tell me, have you ever talked with spirits? I find those of you which make have daily spiritual sessions with abstract intelligences, "angels" if you will, to have a very unhealthy attitude towards this world. Many come off as downright insane.

Am I the one who is insane my friend? Let's look at the world we have created based on judgement. Has there been one moment of peace in all of Man's history? Has Mankind subdued the beast within through their methods of "Law and Order"?

I am offering a new way, I am revealing the truth that others shame, I am lifting the veil that you may see the reality of this world, and you claim I am the one insane for seeing it? You propose to continue on down the road that man has traveled without returning to God, without trusting in HIM exclusively to measure out justice and you claim YOU are the spiritual one. You may be spiritual my friend, but it is a foul spirit you follow that deems you the judge rather than leave the judging to the creator of all.

With Love,

Your Brother

P.S. These are your words...

People with that attitude in a sense want to kick G-d out of the world. Man, wants to be G-d, in a sense, and not subnordinate himself to a rule of law that is beyond his own frail, and subjective perspective. Conscience, and thus justice becomes distorted because some men prefer to come to counter-intuitive conclusions to justify their god of 'necessity' or whatever other idol they supplant the true G-d with.

All I am asking is for you to practice what you preach

The point you miss is that, in Genesis 4:6, God explained to Cain that one can overcome sin by repentance, no Jesus necessary.
The religion of Christianity is a gnostic religion. Why would anyone want to follow Gnosticism?

Originally posted by BenNoah
The point you miss is that, in Genesis 4:6, God explained to Cain that one can overcome sin by repentance, no Jesus necessary.
The religion of Christianity is a gnostic religion. Why would anyone want to follow Gnosticism?

I would imagine people follow the path the spirit within them dictates they follow.

Eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the Son of Man

Not really Gnosticism, but a full understanding of Judaism.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by BenNoah


Its a harsh truth that many Christians have trouble facing..

Im a former christian (catholic), i left Christianity cause frankly i couldnt see anything new in it that didnt already exist in Judaism.

In the most optimistic sense, Yeshua sincerely wanted to spread the teachings of the Sheva Mitzvot Bnei Noach to the gentile nations. But on the other hand, and a position much more likely, Yeshua represented a movement that already existed in Judean society (the hellenized Jews, like Philo for instance) that endorsed only the observance of the 10 commandments.

Later on at the Nicean council Christianity took on a distinctly obvious Gnostic flavor. Anyone who has studied gnosticism can see this. Rome acted shrewdly by "adopting" Christianity as the official religion of the empire, even though most pagans merely absorbed the new myth which they well knew contained their core beliefs. Saturnalia was practiced in Rome for instance up till the 15th century. And in Asia minor Saturnalia (or dionysian rites) remained popular. If you read the Talmud they comment on the depravity of these christians. Later Rabbinic writers like Maimonides mentions that the Ishmalites engage in acts of egregious depravity - like sodomy, which of course remains popular in Muslims countries to this day (which is why i find it so ironic that people think Islam disapproves of this. Maybe in some countries, but many others, like morocco, tunisia, alegeria, this remained perfectly legal)

Also take into account political realities like the Romans seeing a threat in Judaism and the vast number of roman citizens (some say as much as 10% of the empire) converting to Judaism. Horace, Seneca, Domitian, Tactitus and Juvenal all make mention of this. Gentiles were converting to Judaism, or atleast becoming what these authors called "G-d fearers" ie; Bnei Noach. They had to control and displace this gain made by the Jews whom they understood represented the opposite of the exploitive pyramidal model of society which the Romans inherited from the Egyptians (hence why the obelisk standing in St Peters is a 4000 year old Egyprian obelisk from Heliopolis). How else could they accomplish this other than supplanting the Jewish religion?

The gospels speak in a Jewish manner, but the philosophy and theology is manifestly pagan ie; shows greater consonance with Neoplatonism than it does with Torah. No where are there any explciit physical actions commanded by Jesus. On the contrary, he gave 8 abstract principles which sound more eastern in origin than Jewish.

Nonetheless, the overal consensus among Rabbinic authorities is that Christianity represents a viable path to HaShem, as does Islam. But some aspects need to be extirpated in each religion.

reply to post by IAMIAM


Says the guy who knows nothing about Judaism.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by IAMIAM

 

Says the guy who knows nothing about Judaism.

Maybe you are right, I know nothing about Judaism.

I do know that Omnibenevolent, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient creator of all that is, was, and will ever be. Thus knowing that spirit, I know enough about Judaism to recognise Jews as my kindred Brothers and Sisters. In that we can break bread together, and dwell in the light of that spirit of love and peace.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by dontreally
In the most optimistic sense, Yeshua sincerely wanted to spread the teachings of the Sheva Mitzvot Bnei Noach to the gentile nations.

Actually...

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Originally posted by dontreally
Later on at the Nicean council Christianity took on a distinctly obvious Gnostic flavor. Anyone who has studied gnosticism can see this. Rome acted shrewdly by "adopting" Christianity as the official religion of the empire, even though most pagans merely absorbed the new myth which they well knew contained their core beliefs. Saturnalia was practiced in Rome for instance up till the 15th century. And in Asia minor Saturnalia (or dionysian rites) remained popular. If you read the Talmud they comment on the depravity of these christians. Later Rabbinic writers like Maimonides mentions that the Ishmalites engage in acts of egregious depravity - like sodomy, which of course remains popular in Muslims countries to this day (which is why i find it so ironic that people think Islam disapproves of this. Maybe in some countries, but many others, like morocco, tunisia, alegeria, this remained perfectly legal)

Actually, I agree with you here. At least what Paul added to the teachings of Christ were for the purpose of gaining control over his movement by the Empire.

Originally posted by dontreally
Also take into account political realities like the Romans seeing a threat in Judaism and the vast number of roman citizens (some say as much as 10% of the empire) converting to Judaism. Horace, Seneca, Domitian, Tactitus and Juvenal all make mention of this. Gentiles were converting to Judaism, or atleast becoming what these authors called "G-d fearers" ie; Bnei Noach. They had to control and displace this gain made by the Jews whom they understood represented the opposite of the exploitive pyramidal model of society which the Romans inherited from the Egyptians (hence why the obelisk standing in St Peters is a 4000 year old Egyprian obelisk from Heliopolis). How else could they accomplish this other than supplanting the Jewish religion?

Yep, I agree again. This is what Paul added to Christianity though. Not what Christ taught from his own lips.

Originally posted by dontreally
The gospels speak in a Jewish manner, but the philosophy and theology is manifestly pagan ie; shows greater consonance with Neoplatonism than it does with Torah. No where are there any explciit physical actions commanded by Jesus. On the contrary, he gave 8 abstract principles which sound more eastern in origin than Jewish.

Here I disagree. Isn't YhWh the label for the Omnipresent, Omnibenevolent, Omnipotent, Omniscient creator of all that is, was, and will ever be? If so, then the statement "I am in the Father and the Father is within me" should make perfectly logical sense. Thus Christ's commandment to "Love One Another" should also make perfect sense. In loving one another we are loving that spirit which created all, is in all, and will forever be. That is also why we should not judge each other. Judging each other is judging the work of that creator for it is "Omnipresent" after all.

Originally posted by dontreally
Nonetheless, the overal consensus among Rabbinic authorities is that Christianity represents a viable path to HaShem, as does Islam. But some aspects need to be extirpated in each religion.

edit on 23-4-2011 by dontreally because: (no reason given)

What is HaShem?

With Love,

Your Brother

HaShem means "the Name" and is used to avoid writing the tetragrammaton.

Originally posted by _Del_
HaShem means "the Name" and is used to avoid writing the tetragrammaton.

Ok I think I understand...

HaShem means "The Name"
"The Name" means the being.
The being is God.
God is the unseen omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omniscient creator of all the is, was, and will ever be, the Alpha and the Omega.

Now if the being is the being and "The Name" is the label of the being, isn't treating "The Name" with such reverence a bit like idolatry, since "The Name" isn't the being, but merely a symbol which represents the being?

Help me understand please.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM

Now if the being is the being and "The Name" is the label of the being, isn't treating "The Name" with such reverence a bit like idolatry, since "The Name" isn't the being, but merely a symbol which represents the being?

No

The Legal definition of Idolatry (In Jewish law) is a visual representation of G-d, or any force in an anthropmorphic ,animal or any material form.

Additionally, HaSheM is also a divine name. MoSHe (Moses) is the letters of HaSheM backwards, meaning MoSHe is the ideal man who becomes a reflection of his source - G-d. This is the secret behind Mem, Shin, Heh.

Hashem is used instead of the tetragramatton when casually referring to G-d. This is done as the previous poster explained out of reverence, and not worship of another force. My mind is still on G-d, and the name HaShem does not constitute a different entity. Its simply a less holy and more general name for the creator.

Creation is called "A name". What is a name other than something that calls attention to something else? My name isnt me, but it draws my attention. Likewise, HaShem is like the generic revelation of G-d, his basic name that man uses when referring to him. Whereas the tetragrammaton, if it was ever pronounced (its not pronounced today btw. In prayer its spoken as Adonai - meaning Lord) would be reserved for only the most holy of circumstances, and not in casual reference.

This whole process is called making distinctions between one thing and another.....Something i know you dont have much respect for.

Originally posted by dontreally
This whole process is called making distinctions between one thing and another.....Something i know you dont have much respect for.

Thank you for the explanation. I will let it sink in and see if I understand.

Now this last quote is not true. It is simply that you do not understand HOW I make distinctions. You have never made an effort to understand how I made distinctions because it is different than your own way, and thus not worth your inquiry. That is fair enough. I will try to understand your way, but that does not mean I will accept it as my own.

Here is how I make distinctions.

"Dontreally" is your name. It is not who you are. What that name represents is your ego, not who you are. So, even though "Dontreally" comes off as abrasive and arrogant, I do not judge the being who is behind that mask. I know it is merely a facade and that if the tables were turned, I would be exactly like you and you me. For we are nothing more than a mask created from our life experiences covering the very same divine spirit, an image of the creator of all.

So, while I do not judge the mask created and known as "Dontreally", I do not worship it either. I worship, I love the divine being that you are underneath it. I long for the day you are comfortable enough to set it free.

Do I hold reverence for names, labels, constructs of our ego, those works which divide us? Absolutely not. I admire their diversity, I see that each has a purpose, but I save my reverence for that which is made by invisible hands. I revere nature, I revere the nature of Man, I worship the whole and each of its parts.

This is in no way to say my view is better. I am merely presenting it to give you my understanding.

With Love,

Your Brother

The problem many have with the Noahide Law is that they think it is a simple list like the Ten Commandments. Think of it, rather, as an interface to the Torah for the non-Jew.

When you said that

The Legal definition of Idolatry (In Jewish law) is a visual representation of G-d, or any force in an anthropmorphic, animal or any material form.

I would like to quote Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, if I may: “The Torah warns: ‘Do not turn to the idols’ (Vayikra 19:4), which the Gemara explains as a reference to conceptual idols, ideologies not based on the Torah (Shabbos 149a).”

This can be seen in light of Christianity. Let's face it: if it's about Jesus, you KNOW it is Gnosticism. ALL Christian sects and denominations are Gnostic. When you understand the false ideologies of Gnosticsm, and view them from a Torah viewpoint, you will see that Christian theology is built entirely on a Gnostic framework.

I would also suggest attacking the root and foundation of the false Christian Gnostic religion: their total reliance on their manufactured texts. For instance, which version of their "New and Improved" Testament do they use? The Byzantine? The Alexandrian? The Western? It is quite useful to first find out which of the different "New Testaments" they use.