a hypothetical situation for all atheists

reply to post by jericanman

hypothetical situation 1 if me (and other Christian's) are wrong and their is no god ...Jesus etc, then we have still hopefully spent our lives helping others and being loving and true.

You can still do that without being a Christian, no strings attached. Morality and good will do not depend on a god. They're inherent. They're YOU.

hypothetical situation 2
if atheists are wrong and their is a god.. Jesus our lord etc, as an atheist you would have never accepted Jesus as your savior and the way to heaven and eternity in gods glory. no mater how much good you did during your life. end result you die. then the whole spending eternity in the void (hell) under constant torture of your soul.

Logical inconsistency. Unless this god is a tyrant.

A loving god can not torture anyone for an eternity.

So this hypothesis evaporates.

hypothetical situation 3 (now this is the more important) if on your death bed you felt god's presence (trust me you would instantly know the feeling of every cell in your body emanating love) christian or atheist. if you then called for gods help and for jesus to cleanse your sins. even though you wouldn't be a born again christian for very long. (might even get this chance again after death who knows) you would be accepted and live in eternal heaven.

This is very interesting. Many people who have experienced NDE reported that they have felt a powerful presence and love that they can not describe, REGARDLESS of their religions or lack thereof.

Many lives have been changed as a result of that, and here an interesting part, rarely do they convert to Christianity!

Think about this... why would anyone be afraid of a loving god?

Hypothesis #2 is out. Hypothesis #1 is a part of Pascal's wager.

Hypothesis #3 - minus deathbed confessions plus all loving presence - is more likely due to plenty of evidence that support it.

So here we have it. Your argument exploded in your face. One day you are going to realize it.

I really hope it is going to dawn on some of you soon like it did to me and many others. It is very clear.

reply to post by griffinrl

I hope I bought enough hotdogs for everyone

Amen to that!

Religion is silly.
Just be a good person.

You don't need God to tell you what that means.

What an arrogant post and really what it boils down to is your personal belief system not what is right or wrong?
Hypothetical #34658549: You are passing judgement on other people as if you were god (SIN) and were horrible person in life who just constantly asks for forgivenesss= Free Heaven Pass..
You are one of the nicest people I could ever meet and eventhough you make mistakes you find you're always trying to improve yourself so you don't repeat these mistakes without anyone saying you have to=Hellfire...

reply to post by jericanman


Brain cells firing into the "what if"

Well "what if" the sky fell tomorrow.

Learn about atheists before you start pushing your religion onto them...

atheism.about.com...

Even though this might not have been your intention, that is always how it is brought across to people who do not believe in what you do!

You just offended, with your post, 66% of the world's population. In addition, your "what if" situations could be applied to every religion in the world.

reply to post by jericanman


Wow. I've never heard this one before ...
*cough* pascals wager *cough*
(every Christian ultimately asks this question at some point in his/her 'career'...)

But I have a hypothetical situation for you to ponder as well...
Have you seen "Religulous"?

What if you die and go to the pearly gates and are eventually sent to Hell because you failed to worship the giant with a 'sizable erection' (well, sizable for england), which is carved on the mountainside?

What if you're wrong about:
Zeus
The flying spaghetti monster
The pink pony of death
Allah
The Purple Cookie Monster of DOOM
etc, etc...

You better cover all your bases just to be sure .


Ok, here's my thing... I don't know if there is a god.
But, I have pretty high standards for a god if he/she/it does exist.
I believe that such a being would care more about the good we did in our life rather than playing lip-service to him.
I believe that such a being would not be so arrogant to hold an eternal grudge to those who don't believe in him.
I believe that such a being would make himself known if there were negative consequences.
I believe that such a being would not make a virtue of faith but rather the faculties and mind he gave us, which would be designed (by evolution or creation) to use logic and reason rather than blind assumption.
I believe that such a being would not be a racist - ultimately judging people for how they were raised in their culture and what they were taught was right.
I believe that there is no purpose for Hell, and a higher being would know that.
I believe that any creator would not judge us for how he created us, as that would be retarded.


Seriously, 'what if' you are wrong about the 3,000 + deities that you conveniently left out of your 'hypothetical situation'...

And isn't believing in a deity simply because you fear the consequences a BAD thing?

One person enjoys an eternity of bliss while another endures an eternity of torture.
The difference between the two?
One was more fearful and decided to play lip-service.
One was more gullible.
One was more honest with himself and knew that there is no evidence to support any deity, and therefor did not claim to know.

Funny, the only good virtue I see there is of the one being sent to Hell.

there is no god?

we die. nothing happens

there is a CHRISTIAN (big deal, you cant just say "god") God.

athiests say "oops #...forgive me"

we die, were in heaven with all the others.

gotta love the loop holes in your doctrine. the priest molesters will be there too.

reply to post by TruthParadox


That is a great post! I wish I could give you more stars.

Yep it's a poor attempt at Pascal's Wager in disguise.

Why not just come right out and present Pascal's Wager? Simply because it has been done billions of times before. Christians try to be more creative with it. The sad thing is that it fails EVERY TIME and they don't even realize it.

I just hope they will one day wake up and realize their kind of thinking.

Granted, I have been a Christian for almost 25 years. I realize that it may take some time, but eventually some will come to a realization.

"Religulous" is a wonderful movie. I recently watched it (I could finally download subtitles). I recommend anyone to watch this one. It shows how irrational certain religions are. I SERIOUSLY recommend Christians to watch it because it shows people of DIFFERENT religions. Christians will go, "Oh look how absurd their beliefs are! How could they believe that???" That is EXACTLY how it is!

THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX!

Sorry for my brief rant.

Funny, the only good virtue I see there is of the one being sent to Hell.

Oh yes, very funny.

Originally posted by asmeone2
What will you Christians do if you find yourselves riding the WHeel of Karma instead and have to face for music for all that the genocide, murder, perpetuated ignorance, sexual abuse, embezzling, and so on perpetuated in "Jesus's Name?" No "blood of the savior" to get you out of it this time!"

See, this can work two ways.

And I agree, it is very condescending to assume that everyone who questions Christianity is incaple of faith or religious thoughts, therefor must be Athiest.

I look at it this way, if God exists and he has half the power he's credited with, he will be able to know the difference between someone who denied him because they wanted to getout of moral boundaries and someone who just didn't think a specific dogma made sense.

I'm sorry, Asmeone, kinda like in Buddhism, or Karma, each person whether they believe in the God of the Old and New Testament or not, is judged individually for what they did in their life, good or bad.

Yes, we have certain rules we have to go by if we are true believers in the Bible. Christian followers of Jesus believe the New Testament is a "re-writing" of the Old Covenant (the Old Testament) because God wanted to make it easier for all people to be saved.

And yes, in the New Testament, it says anyone who has heard the gospel and rejects Jesus won't be written in the book of life. This is what I believe.

But why should it matter to anyone? The problem occurs when people start killing each other because of their beliefs, religious or otherwise.

By the same token, that doesn't mean we have to all believe or support the same things in the name of tolerance. And sometimes we have to speak out against the things we don't agree with. Speak out against, not kill or maim people.

I do agree with you about God being able to know the difference between people who just want to do their thing whether it's moral or not and people who might not follow a certain dogma.

Actually, God just wants to have a personal relationship with each and every one of us, like a loving Father.

edit to change wording

[edit on 26-2-2009 by sezsue]

again

[edit on 26-2-2009 by sezsue]

Originally posted by jericanman
hypothetical situation 1

if me (and other Christian's) are wrong and their is no god ...Jesus etc, then we have still hopefully spent our lives helping others and being loving and true.

end result we die nothing more. we (hopefully) had a good impact on the people we did share life with while here though.

What if non-christians had spent their life doing good. What if an atheist had spent his life being loving and true?

hypothetical situation 2

if atheists are wrong and their is a god.. Jesus our lord etc,
as an atheist you would have never accepted Jesus as your savior and the way to heaven and eternity in gods glory. no mater how much good you did during your life.

end result you die. then the whole spending eternity in the void (hell) under constant torture of your soul.

Hmm, nice religion you got there.... It would be the same as serving under a king who forced everyone to wear blue clothes and dance. Those who wore red clothes and danced would be punished.

hypothetical situation 3 (now this is the more important)

if on your death bed you felt god's presence (trust me you would instantly know the feeling of every cell in your body emanating love)

christian or atheist. if you then called for gods help and for jesus to cleanse your sins. even though you wouldn't be a born again christian for very long. (might even get this chance again after death who knows) you would be accepted and live in eternal heaven.

so would you as an atheist go against everything you believed in life to save yourself. i doubt if anyone would chose hell in a situation like that.

Sounds like the emanating love could be the release of '___' into your body upon near death. Some like to call it God, some like to call it a spiritual insight, others call it '___'.

BUT - if you're right, then this all forgiving God would maybe forgive those who chose to live a GOOD life in denial of jesus and the lord, by maybe saying 'OMG that guy didn't even need to visit church or pray to jesus, yet he went out and fed the homeless and gave money to charity and painted the school, WITHOUT me even needing to say anything.......... send him to HELL'...

Yeah great religion Christians. You sell it really well.

reply to post by sezsue

because God wanted to make it easier for all people to be saved.

Saved from what? From punishment? A punishment of a crime we did not commit?

Any sane judge on this earth would not punish you for the deeds of your parents.

But why should it matter to anyone? The problem occurs when people start killing each other because of their beliefs, religious or otherwise.

BINGO. The problem starts when religious people start to exert control over others who do not believe. We have to keep them at bay. Otherwise, we will start to see our freedom evaporate.

This is the reason why so many have make a big effort to debunk religions such as Christianity and Islam. They want people to start think for themselves and grant everybody freedom.

Actually, God just wants to have a personal relationship with each and every one of us, like a loving Father.

Right. That's one's belief. No need to scream from rooftop and warn everybody of hellfire if anyone doesn't want to have a relationship with their god.

It's a personal thing. That's called spirituality. No tenets. No rules. No laws. No hell.

Just you and your god or just yourself.

Hmmm....not one positive post towards the OP!!

I wonder why?

Anyone willing to start the first one??


And who will own up to starring and flagging this thread




ok ok its sezsue!

[edit on 26-2-2009 by zerozero00]

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
reply to post by sezsue

 

because God wanted to make it easier for all people to be saved.

Saved from what? From punishment? A punishment of a crime we did not commit?

Any sane judge on this earth would not punish you for the deeds of your parents.



That's what I said, each person is judged individually for the good and bad they did.

But that's just what I believe.

I also believe there are a lot of good people out there, who try to do the right thing, whether they believe in God or not.

reply to post by zerozero00

And who will own up to starring and flagging this thread

Second account..?




o.k. I'll admit it...I'm a closet zealot.

reply to post by sezsue


I know Christianity beleives each person is judged. The thing is that it happens after death--if at all.

I was refering in my post for the tendancy for some christians to go, "Whee! Jesus saved me, I'm forgiven!" and then have little thought to truly changing themselves or atoneing for what they have done, because they can always pray and be forgiven later.

That, and the tendancy to write off any Christian in a position of influence who gets caught with dirty hands as "not a real christian."

reply to post by zerozero00

And who will own up to starring and flagging this thread

Ok, I'll flag it so that everybody get's to see how religion can blind people to such an extent that they come up with OP's like this one.

ok lets pull a turn about on this

hypothetical situation for a christian using pascals wager

you have faith in god and jesus you keep telling your self this over and over, and well most of your social circle are religeous too and you dont want to let them down .. and well its what you have always done so why stop now

but so much of what your told conflicts with what the bible actually say and how the world actually is

if god made the worlkd why is it so different to the way he intended it to be, people sin sure but why is it a loving god lets all those horendose things happen and not even try and help, why is the ungodly are such nice people most of the time, why is the godly christians are sometime really bad

your faith just doent make sense and you know its not based on real evidence either just somthing you felt that you know might have been somthing else entierly and well everyone told you it was god so you figured it had to be but doughts creeping in

do you

situation 1

sit down take a long hard look at what you have been told, compare it to what the bible actually says and the way the world really is and try and come to a better understanding of just what it is you really believe and how much you just go along with

situation 2

try and find real evidence for god set about your lifes work to find physical evidence to show the whole world that god is indeed real and loving

situation 3

dont worry about it, lead as good a life as you posibly can and help people just for the sake of you can so you should, and not worry about it either way

situation 4

head over to ats and try and stump a bunch of atheists, hell if they cant give a relly good answer then that means you must be right and you can put those doughts out of your head for a bit longer and carry on, if you can just keep it up a bit longer maybe it will all make sense soon and you will truley know jesus

guess what dragging out a 300 year old argument that was shown to be a rediculously poor attempt to convince anyone including the idiot making the argument almost as soon as it was first proposed and every other major religeon hit on a similar idea as well and did it earlier.... it aint gonna convert us ..and really wont be enough to keep you convinced for long either ... so which situation you gonna try next? an honest realistic option or more self delusion?

go for situation 4 again? only with a pailey argument this time and hope that one isnt as easily falsifiable so you can beleive a little longer?



[edit on 26/2/09 by noobfun]

Originally posted by jericanman

a hypothetical situation for all atheists

i read ats on a daily basis and find it shocking the amount of christian debunking threads appear. for all those atheists out their think of this.

hypothetical situation 1

if me (and other Christian's) are wrong and their is no god ...Jesus etc, then we have still hopefully spent our lives helping others and being loving and true.

end result we die nothing more. we (hopefully) had a good impact on the people we did share life with while here though.

And I am prepared to die and have nothing happen afterward.

hypothetical situation 2

if atheists are wrong and their is a god.. Jesus our lord etc,
as an atheist you would have never accepted Jesus as your savior and the way to heaven and eternity in gods glory. no mater how much good you did during your life.

end result you die. then the whole spending eternity in the void (hell) under constant torture of your soul.

I would then goto where they condemned my fiance prior to her passing away. She was a Buddhist. In which case I would be with her and I wouldn't care about the other circumstances since I almost joined her after her passing away anyway.

hypothetical situation 3 (now this is the more important)

if on your death bed you felt god's presence (trust me you would instantly know the feeling of every cell in your body emanating love)

christian or atheist. if you then called for gods help and for jesus to cleanse your sins. even though you wouldn't be a born again christian for very long. (might even get this chance again after death who knows) you would be accepted and live in eternal heaven.

so would you as an atheist go against everything you believed in life to save yourself. i doubt if anyone would chose hell in a situation like that.

I would gladly go wherever my beloved went. I made a vow upon hearing of her passing away that when I die IF there is an afterlife I was going to find out where she was. If I wasn't happy about where my Beloved was then I was going to do something about it and I wouldn't care what the consequences to me were. I loved her then and I love her now and I stand by that vow.

[Rest of quote snipped]

I am also mentally prepared for Valhalla (I would have fun) , The Elysian Fields, or oblivion or perhaps nothing that has appeared yet upon this Earth.

Religions are nothing more then an early form of government control. Gee I am a poor man with no future, but I can get a following by spouting a bunch of stuff about hell and damnation...

"Oh hail good prophet, what are we ever to do...."

"Fear not...(superman voice) my fellow slav.. subjects. If you believe in my god and donate 10% of your income in my, erhem, his name then you will be saved from all damnation and sin and whatever else scares you. For our god is loving and kind when you full worship m.. him!!"

*in walks monk in robe*

*people give there wealth*

*so called prophet now has money and followers*

Religion has been the most profitable and least productive business in all of history...

That is why you see people debunking it.... we got smart enough to figure out the BS.

Originally posted by jericanman

fell free to flame away im half expecting it. but truly what would you do if on your death bead you found you where wrong all along.


and remember this is a hypothetical. so try and visualize the situation i set. im not trying to offend anyone. just to get some brain cells fired into the "what if"

I'm going to take this question seriously, and I haven't read any of the responses in this thread yet. I will as soon as I post though.

I think your question is fundamentally flawed. If I found out at any time in my life that I was wrong about there not being a God (at least not in anything like the sense you give that word), then I would believe in him.

The dilemma you've presented is commonly known as Pascal's wager.

But belief isn't a matter of rational calculation of which possibility gives the better odds of payoff. At least not for me. I do not believe in God because I do not believe in God. It's that simple.