If it wasn’t for Jesus, you would cease to exist! Really…

reply to post by OldThinker

if time was not a factor...

It would mean that freewill is a quality unique to god. For materialistic beings like us, time is a factor. WE don't have freewill and that's all that matters.

VANTAGE POINT is the key....

Notice God's POSITION in this verse....

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:37-39


This is GOOD NEWS!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by OldThinker

 

if time was not a factor...

It would mean that freewill is a quality unique to god. For materialistic beings like us, time is a factor. WE don't have freewill and that's all that matters.

OK, just think about it....that's all

OT

PS Did you have time to watch that short vid?

reply to post by OldThinker


But what about the good news that Mithras lives? Or that Ra loves us unconditionally?

Let's face it, it's not exactly "the" good news is it.


"PS Did you have time to watch that short vid? "
Not on dial up. And I'm going to bed, I'm tired and a little drunk.

"OK, just think about it....that's all "
I've been thinking about it for a decade now and the conclusion is inescapable.

[edit on 28-2-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by Welfhard


HA HA!!!!!

reply to post by Welfhard


HA HA!!!!!



Good night!!!!

Thanks again!!!

I laughed so hard I hit enter twice

[edit on 28-2-2009 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by noobfun
hmm time natural selection random mutation sexual selection, recombianat chromosones, speciation , enviromental isolation predation.........

Noobfun, when you get back....here is my biggest problem...with the evolution movement....their fear of all views discussed....

The evolutionists indeed have a problem. And that’s why they resort to legal and political intimidation, firing or denying tenure to scientists and science teachers who are creationists or ID proponents (see the book Slaughter of the Dissidents), and using economic boycotts to protect their theory. If evolution were really the truth, then evolutionist teachers, professors, and scientists would welcome challenges from IDers and creationists because they could very easily expose their arguments as scientific absurdities. The fact that the evolutionists don’t welcome the challenges but do everything they can to avoid or prevent them is strong evidence that Neo-Darwinian “microbe-to-microbiologist” evolution is a massive deception masquerading as proven scientific fact

Sad, bro..really sad!!!

More here: Hot off da press, just today....

www.answersingenesis.org...

reply to post by OldThinker


Answers in Genesis is the most religiously motivated website. You can't take anything they say as objective. They believe that the bible is literal, so how could they ever be objective, they are defensive because their beloved story is said to be wrong.

"Evolutionists" (creationist term) aren't afraid of creationists, they follow the evidence and then have to deal with people who aggressively disagree with their findings. Evolution is great science which has mountains of real world, ancient and contemporary evidence, as demonstrable as gravity. When creationism has some evidence, then and only then should we discuss the idea, but now there is no point, let alone reason to teach it in schools.

reply to post by Welfhard


I hear you. This is actually a balanced article though... you may read and let me know...ok?

As I pointed in article of a ID on www.liesnomore.net... Intelligence Design have nothing to do with a life on this planet. Nothing intelligent about.
To OT: Stop trowing a verses from Bible as that book was written to be a "joke on humanity". Present in intelligent matter a evidence from other source as I did. I presented the evidence of historical facts of who wrote the bible and that the characters in that book are fictional. Do you have any evidence to support your claim?. So far what I saw was the verses and speculations. As some other person said:" You do not need a book to tell you of how to live your life". I feel sorry for any one who need a instructions of how to proceed in life. Are you a "mindless being" who can not make a rational decisions?.
For one to know the truth it have to know a "both side of that story". You can not find the truth if you look into only one source of information. It my look good to you and be convenient, but you can not base your life on that information. For millennial - the information about the Bible was suppressed, but now you can easy find the truth if you are willing to seek. Take your time and read the article on my web site. Fallow the sources of that article and then made a conclusion. It is a introduction to a different religions and how religions was born. It present you a historical facts of who wrote the Bible and why. You can download in PDF and read in your own time.
I am not trying to "shake" any one believing, but rather point to sources of information as I did not had before. One "smart" person said "Look and you will find it".

Originally posted by liesnomore
To OT: Stop trowing a verses from Bible as that book was written to be a "joke on humanity".

Please relax big boy!

The bible is very very trustworthy!!!

Reliability of the New Testament as Historical Documents

Reliability of the New Testament as Historical Documents
"Astounding" number of ancient manuscripts extant: 5,000 Greek manuscripts, 10,000 Latin and 9,000 other--totaling over 24,000 manuscript copies or portions of the New Testament. These are dated from 100 to 300 years after the originals. (There are no original manuscripts ["autographs"] extant, but the number and similarity of copies allows scholars to reconstruct the originals.)
Early fragments: John Ryland manuscript 130 A.D. in Egypt; Bodmer manuscript containing most of John's gospel 150-200 A.D.; Magdalen fragment from Mat. 26 believed by some to be within a few years of Jesus' death; Gospel fragments found among the Dead Sea Scrolls dated as early as 50 A.D.
Comparison with other ancient documents (available copies versus the originals):
Caesar—10 copies—1000 year gap

Tacitus—20 copies—1000 year gap

Plato—7 copies—1200 year gap

F. F. Bruce: "There is no body of ancient literature in the world which enjoys such a wealth of good attestation as the New Testament."
William F. Albright: "Thanks to the Qumran discoveries, the New Testament proves to be in fact what it was formerly believed to be: the teaching of Christ and his immediate followers circa.25 and circa. 80 AD."

More on Part 1 here: www.faithfacts.org...

reply to post by liesnomore



More on part 2 here: www.faithfacts.org...

Archaeology and the Old Testament

Archaeology and the Old Testament
Ebla tablets—discovered in 1970s in Northern Syria. Documents written on clay tablets from around 2300 B.C. demonstrate that personal and place names in the Patriarchal accounts are genuine. In use in Ebla was the name "Canaan," a name critics once said was not used at that time and was used incorrectly in the early chapters of the Bible. The tablets refer to all five "cities of the plain" mentioned in Genesis 14, previously assumed to have been mere legends.
Greater proportion of Egyptian words in the Pentateuch (first five books) than in rest of the Old Testament. Accurate Egyptian names: Potiphar (Gen.39), Zaphenath-Paneah (Joseph's Egyptian name, Gen. 41:45), Asenath (Gen.41:45), On (Gen. 41:45), Rameses (Gen. 47:11), Oithom (Exodus 1:11).
Finds in Egypt are consistent with the time, place, and other details of biblical accounts of the Israelites in Egypt. These include housing and tombs that could have been of the Israelites, as well as a villa and tomb that could have been Joseph's.
Confounding earlier skeptics, but confirming the Bible, an important discovery was made in Egypt in 1896. A tablet—the Merneptah Stela—was found that mentions Israel. (Merneptah was the pharaoh that ruled Egypt in 1212-1202 B.C.) The context of the stela indicates that Israel was a significant entity in the late 13th century B.C.
The Hittites were once thought to be a biblical legend, until their capital and records were discovered in Turkey.
Crucial find in Nuzi (northeastern Iraq), an entire cache of Hittite legal documents from 1400 B.C. Confirms many details of Genesis, Deuteronomy, such as: (a) siring of legitimate children through handmaidens, (b) oral deathbed will as binding, (c) the power to sell one's birthright for relatively trivial property (Jacob & Esau), (d) need for family idols, such as Rachel stole from Laban, to secure inheritance, (e) form of the covenant in Deuteronomy exactly matches the form of suzerainty treaties between Hittite emperors and vassal kings.
Walls of Jericho—discovery in 1930s by John Garstang. The walls fell suddenly, and outwardly (unique), so Israelites could clamber over the ruins into the city (Joshua 6:20).
In 1986, scholars identified an ancient seal belonging to Baruch, son of Neriah, a scribe who recorded the prophecies of Jeremiah (Jer. 45:11).
In 1990, Harvard researchers unearthed a silver-plated bronze calf figurine reminiscent of the huge golden calf mentioned in the book of Exodus.
In 1993, archaeologists uncovered a 9th century B.C. inscription at Tel Dan. The words carved into a chunk of basalt refer to the "House of David" and the "King of Israel." And the Bible's version of Israelite history after the reign of David's son, Solomon, is believed to be based on historical fact because it is corroborated by independent account of Egyptian and Assyrian inscriptions.
It was once claimed there was no Assyrian king named Sargon as recorded in Isaiah 20:1, because this name was not known in any other record. Then, Sargon's palace was discovered in Iraq. The very event mentioned in Isaiah 20, his capture of Ashdod, was recorded in the palace walls! Even more, fragments of a stela (a poetic eulogy) memorializing the victory were found at Ashdod itself.
Another king who was in doubt was Belshazzar, king of Babylon, named in Daniel 5. The last king of Babylon was Nabonidus according to recorded history. Tablet was found showing that Belshazzar was Nabonidus' son.
The ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah have been discovered southeast of the Dead Sea. Evidence at the site seems consistent with the biblical account: "Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." The destruction debris was about 3 feet thick and buildings were burned from fires that started on the rooftops. Geologist Frederick Clapp theorizes that that pressure from an earthquake could have spewed out sulfur-laden bitumen (similar to asphalt) known to be in the area through the fault line upon which the cities rest. The dense smoke reported by Abraham is consistent with a fire from such material, which could have ignited by a spark or ground fire.

How bout a lil' archeology huh?

reply to post by liesnomore



More on part 3 here: www.faithfacts.org...

A lil' Prophecy!

Fulfilled Prophecy as Evidence for the Bible's Divine Origin


Fulfilled Prophecy as Evidence for the Bible's Divine Origin
2,000 prophecies including some 300 prophecies and implications about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.
There are no prophetic failures.
While there are both obvious and subtle prophecies, most are very detailed and specific.
No other religion has specific, repeated, and unfailing fulfillment of predictions many years in advance of contingent events over which the predictor had no control.
Studies of psychics show only around 8% of their predictions come true and virtually all of these can be attributed to chance and a general knowledge of circumstances.
Mathematicians have calculated the odds of Jesus fulfilling only 8 of the Messianic prophecies as 1 out of 1017 (a 1 followed by 17 zeros). This is equivalent to covering the entire state of Texas with silver dollars 2 feet deep, marking one of them, mixing them all up and having a blind-folded person select the marked one at random the first time. For more on this, see What Are The Odds?
Fulfilled prophecy is powerful evidence that the Bible is divine rather than human in origin.
Objection: Jesus manipulated events to fulfill prophecy. Answer: (a) Many prophecies were out of his control (ancestry, place of birth, time of death). (b) His miracles confirmed Jesus to be the Messiah. (c) There is no evidence that Jesus was a deceiver. (d) In order to manipulate all the people (including his enemies) and even his disciples to make it appear that he was the Messiah, Jesus would have needed supernatural powers. If he had such powers, he must have been the Messiah he claimed to be.

reply to post by liesnomore



Par 4 of 4-how bout some stats?

Statistics of the Bible's Power

Statistics of the Bible's Power
Amazingly Consistent Theme of the Bible
The Bible contains 66 books, written by approximately 40 different writers, over 1600 years, on 3 different continents, in 3 different languages, on thousands of different subjects, yet with one central theme—God's redemption of mankind from sin won for the whole world by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Logical Consistency of the Bible
For a successful debate, show that your opponent's views are arbitrary or inconsistent, and that your position is consistent and not arbitrary. The Bible is internally consistent ("self consistent" or "logically consistent"). Some debating points:

Life after death in heaven or hell may be, in one sense, difficult to believe, but it is entirely internally consistent with the rest of the Bible. If there is a truly just God, justice is only certain if there is ultimate justice. The non-biblical view, in contrast, is inconsistent when it holds that we came from nowhere and go to nowhere, but life is filled with meaning in between. Thus only the biblical worldview is internally consistent.
The statement that "there are no moral absolutes" contains two mistakes:
The declaration itself is an absolute statement, thus it contradicts itself.
A person cannot live his life without moral absolutes. Examples: fairness vs. unfairness; kindness vs. hatred.
For another example, the doctrine of original sin is consistent with the need for a savior.
If there is an omnipotent God, the miracle of creation, as well as the other biblical miracles, is very plausible.

Alright, there's some info for ya!

Manuscript
Archeology
Prophesies
and Stats!

OT

PS: You are free to believe what you will...and I'll never be disrespectful to you...guess I learned how to asct properly from THE BOOK?

James 3:17 huh? 17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.


What a shame...this made-up book teaching people to be considerate?

reply to post by OldThinker

Statistics of the Bible's Power Amazingly Consistent Theme of the Bible The Bible contains 66 books, written by approximately 40 different writers, over 1600 years, on 3 different continents, in 3 different languages, on thousands of different subjects, yet with one central theme—God's redemption of mankind from sin won for the whole world by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

One central theme ? C'mon dude you're stretching it a bit there, the bulk of most of the bibles are taken up by the old testament nothing to do with the jesusgod you ask any jew.

Here's Lewis Black explaining the difference between the old and new testament, hilariously funny but contains strong language.



[edit on 2-3-2009 by moocowman]

reply to post by OldThinker


Oldthinker, That video on Laminin was fantastic! I’ve never heard this guy speak before but he is really good, and when he projected the picture of what a Laminin protein looks like…

… it was totally unexpected! That was so cool!

For some people, this may increase their faith, but for me it was one of the trillions of marvelous signatures of Jesus Christ that I see in the universe all the time. He is everywhere.

I knew that it wasn’t something that you could present as evidence to the unbeliever though. They don’t see it because they can’t see it, but if God ever removes the veil… it will be just like that servant of Elisha who was frightened by the huge Syrian army surrounding them. Elisha was like, “What are you so afraid of, there is more of us then there is of them?”

“More who?”

I can see Elisha slapping his forehead, “Oh God, please let him see…”
That was when he saw it. Not because Elisha had good enough evidence, but because of the supernatural. That’s what happens when God comes on the scene.

Give me the supernatural…

BTW, wish I could help with the barrage of questions that you’ve been hit with… I just don’t have much time on the internet. Yet, I might U2U some answers to the respective “inquisitors”…

[edit on 2-3-2009 by apaulo]

reply to post by apaulo


Hey thank you so very much for the note apaulo! I see this video as a piece of information that the Lord may bring to their memory, when he moves on their heart...

I do recognize, "our struggle is not against human opponents, but against rulers, authorities, cosmic powers in the darkness around us, and evil spiritual forces in the heavenly realm" Eph 6:12

Glad you liked it, you should see this one... www.youtube.com...

OT

Originally posted by moocowman
One central theme ? C'mon dude you're stretching it a bit there, the bulk of most of the bibles are taken up by the old testament nothing to do with the jesusgod you ask any jew.

Here's Lewis Black explaining the difference between the old and new testament, hilariously funny but contains strong language.

Although Mr. Black is humorous, both you and he are forgetting (ignoring?) the many dozen references.predictions/prochecies to the jesusgod as you call him...if interested in learning more see...

www.cynet.com...

Here's just a few for ya...

Micah 5:1-2 (NIV) Marshal your troops, O city of troops, for a siege is laid against us. They will strike Israel's ruler on the cheek with a rod. 2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

John 1:1 (NIV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 8:58 (NIV) "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Ephesians 1:3-14 (NIV) Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

Colossians 1:15-19 (NIV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

Revelation 1:18 (NIV) I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Jesus is the Son of God

Psalms 2:7 (NIV) I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my Son ; today I have become your Father.

Proverbs 30:4 (NIV) Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

Matthew 3:17 (NIV) And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

Luke 1:32 (NIV) He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,

Romans 1:4 (NIV) and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus would be anointed with the Spirit of God

Isaiah 11:2 (NIV) The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD--

Isaiah 61:1 (NIV) The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,

Psalms 45:7-8 (NIV) You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy. 8 All your robes are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia; from palaces adorned with ivory the music of the strings makes you glad.

Matthew 3:16 (NIV) As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.

John 3:34 (NIV) For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.

Acts 10:38 (NIV) how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

There are SO much more,but OT's gotta respect the ATS bandwidth man


Moo, thanks again for joining....hop all is well...

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Answers in Genesis is the most religiously motivated website. You can't take anything they say as objective. They believe that the bible is literal, so how could they ever be objective, they are defensive because their beloved story is said to be wrong.

"Evolutionists" (creationist term) aren't afraid of creationists, they follow the evidence and then have to deal with people who aggressively disagree with their findings. Evolution is great science which has mountains of real world, ancient and contemporary evidence, as demonstrable as gravity. When creationism has some evidence, then and only then should we discuss the idea, but now there is no point, let alone reason to teach it in schools.

Creationists have NO evidence. They have beliefs.

Originally posted by GlossomBoodchild

Creationists have NO evidence. They have beliefs.

G, I do enjoy your posts bro!

OT’s got evidence…at least some great questions!!!!

Doesn’t evolution violate the First Law of Thermodynamics, the law of energy conservation, which states that energy can be converted from one form into another, but it can neither be created or destroyed? YEP!

Doesn’t evolution violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics, the law of energy decay? The energy available for useful work in a functioning system tends to decrease, even though the total energy remains constant. Structured systems progress from a more orderly, more complex, state to a less orderly, disorganized, and random state. YEP!

Doesn’t evolution violate the Law of Biogenesis that life comes only from preexisting life and will only perpetuate its own kind? YEP!

Is there not any evidence in the fossil record to substantiate evolution? Nope!

Hasn’t the fossil record failed to document a single, verifiable "missing link" between ape and man? Maybe some neat drawing, but nothing verifiable right? YEP!


“My boy” the late Henry Morris echoed….“If evolution were true, then the various stages of human evolution ought to be the best documented of all, since man is supposedly the most recent evolutionary arrival and since more people are searching for fossil evidence in this field than in any other. Nevertheless, as noted above, the actual evidence is still extremely fragmentary and very doubtful. Exactly which hominid fossils might be ancestors of man, as well as when and in what order, are still matters of heated dispute even among evolutionary anthropologists."

And lastly doesn’t evolution fail to explain the existence of even a "simple cell." ????
Single cell organisms have in their genes and chromosomes as much data as there are letters in the world’s largest libraries - a trillion letters. Heck, OT doesn’t really KNOW what happened in the past…I dunno....i think a gambling man would choose a strong creator over chance…sorry!

OT still loves ya!





[edit on 3-3-2009 by OldThinker]