reply to post by GlossomBoodchild
G
Speaking of that strong creator here's who he is...But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the
earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation. Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens
and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world
by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. (Jeremiah 10:12)
If it wasn’t for Jesus, you would cease to exist! Really…, page 28
privacy
reply posted on 3-3-2009 @ 01:27 PM by OldThinker
Originally posted by GlossomBoodchild
Creationists have NO evidence.
no evidence? Consider some of the amazing aspects of design that are evident in our solar system:
1. The earth is positioned at just the right distance from the sun so that we receive exactly the proper amount of heat to support life. The other planets of our solar system are either too close to the sun (too hot) or else too far (too cold) to sustain life.
2. Any appreciable change in the rate of rotation of the earth would make life impossible. For example, if the earth were to rotate at 1/10th its present rate, all plant life would either be burned to a crisp during the day or frozen at night.
3. Temperature variations are kept within reasonable limits due to the nearly circular orbit of the earth around the sun.
4. The moon revolves around the earth at a distance of about 240,000 miles, causing harmless tides on the earth. If the moon were located 1/5th of this distance away, the continents would be completely submerged twice a day!
5. The thickness of the earth's crust and the depth of the oceans appear to be carefully designed. Increases in thickness or depth of only a few feet would so drastically alter the absorption of free oxygen and carbon dioxide that plant and animal life could not exist.
6. The earth's axis is tilted 23 degrees from the perpendicular to the plane of its orbit. This tilting, combined with the earth's revolution around the sun, causes our seasons, which are absolutely essential for the raising of food supplies.
7. The earth's atmosphere (especially the ozone layer) serves as a protective shield from lethal solar ultraviolet radiation, which would otherwise destroy all life.
8. The earth's atmosphere also serves to protect the earth by burning up approximately twenty million meteors each day that enter it at speeds of about 30 miles per second! Without this crucial protection, the danger to life would be immense.
9. The two primary constituents of the earth's atmosphere are nitrogen (78 percent) and oxygen (20 percent). This delicate and critical ratio is essential to all life forms.
10. The earth's magnetic field provides important protection from harmful cosmic radiation.
All of this happened just by chance? I think someone would have to commit intellectual suicide to believe that. What does your logic say as you consider the evidence?
Source: www.flickr.com...@N01/discuss/72157608358762611/
[edit on 3-3-2009 by OldThinker]
reply posted on 3-3-2009 @ 06:26 PM by moocowman
reply to post by OldThinker
Sorry dude can't speak for Mr Black but cherry picking from hundreds of years of dubious scriptures to find vague similarities with later events, is not predicting anything and certainly not proof of anything.
This is as wishy washy as any fortune teller or those that promote the works of Nostradamus.
Nowhere in the OT does it say something quite specific like this -
And Yahweh said to Trevor " In the year 4 (or whatever as Yahoos days are sometimes years or thousands of years depending on who you listen to) I Yahweh the jealous god blah blah will come to you in human form and will walk among you as a man"
"I will change my name to Jesus the grandson of so and so the son of so and so brother of so and so." "I will be born in a town called so and so and king so and so will hear of it and kill hundreds or of babies just in case they are me, so there will be hundreds or thousands of little baby graves around the area on my birthday."
"At the age of 12 I will argue with the rabbis and enter into theological debate about myself etc etc. Later on I will have twelve disciples by the names of so and so and will hang out with a woman called Mary of Magdella. I will be of x height and weight with the usual beard and x hair and have a following of many thousands of Jews my chosen people, of whom I am one just like the rest of my brothers and sisters named so and so."
" I will then go about these miracles ( list of miracles dates times and places) teach everyone all about me, as it is quite clear that you lot are not getting what I'm about at the moment and I will need to change the way I operate in the future".
"At x date and time one of my followers will turn me in to the romans for upsetting the priests etc and they will collude to execute me by crucifixion on x date and time, and my chosen people the jews will get the blame for my big idea."
"While I am suffering on a timber beam with nails through my ankles and wrists there will be 2 other people suffering the same fate, however while they scream in agony they manage to find the breath to get into an argument about my execution."
"Just before I die (as I have somehow made it possible for me to die ) I ask myself why I have abandoned myself, and I die at x date and time approximately 6 hours after being hung up" " On X date and time Ms X and Ms X will come to where I have been buried and find that my body has gone, as I didn't really die I just pretended to for the sake of the lesson I'm going to teach your future generations"
There you go OT that's pretty specific if it was put to paper a thousand years or more before the actual event, and that piece of paper remained authentic till now.
No doubt many xtians will claim "Ah but Yahwegod didn't want us to know what he was going to do back then, so he made things a bit vague.
For the sake of band width I'll not go any further into insane logic for the moment, it's enough to say that a prediction has to be quite specific, and the various texts you quoted are far from that.
Although Mr. Black is humorous, both you and he are forgetting (ignoring?) the many dozen references.predictions/prochecies to the jesusgod as you call him...if interested in learning more see...
Sorry dude can't speak for Mr Black but cherry picking from hundreds of years of dubious scriptures to find vague similarities with later events, is not predicting anything and certainly not proof of anything.
This is as wishy washy as any fortune teller or those that promote the works of Nostradamus.
Nowhere in the OT does it say something quite specific like this -
And Yahweh said to Trevor " In the year 4 (or whatever as Yahoos days are sometimes years or thousands of years depending on who you listen to) I Yahweh the jealous god blah blah will come to you in human form and will walk among you as a man"
"I will change my name to Jesus the grandson of so and so the son of so and so brother of so and so." "I will be born in a town called so and so and king so and so will hear of it and kill hundreds or of babies just in case they are me, so there will be hundreds or thousands of little baby graves around the area on my birthday."
"At the age of 12 I will argue with the rabbis and enter into theological debate about myself etc etc. Later on I will have twelve disciples by the names of so and so and will hang out with a woman called Mary of Magdella. I will be of x height and weight with the usual beard and x hair and have a following of many thousands of Jews my chosen people, of whom I am one just like the rest of my brothers and sisters named so and so."
" I will then go about these miracles ( list of miracles dates times and places) teach everyone all about me, as it is quite clear that you lot are not getting what I'm about at the moment and I will need to change the way I operate in the future".
"At x date and time one of my followers will turn me in to the romans for upsetting the priests etc and they will collude to execute me by crucifixion on x date and time, and my chosen people the jews will get the blame for my big idea."
"While I am suffering on a timber beam with nails through my ankles and wrists there will be 2 other people suffering the same fate, however while they scream in agony they manage to find the breath to get into an argument about my execution."
"Just before I die (as I have somehow made it possible for me to die ) I ask myself why I have abandoned myself, and I die at x date and time approximately 6 hours after being hung up" " On X date and time Ms X and Ms X will come to where I have been buried and find that my body has gone, as I didn't really die I just pretended to for the sake of the lesson I'm going to teach your future generations"
There you go OT that's pretty specific if it was put to paper a thousand years or more before the actual event, and that piece of paper remained authentic till now.
No doubt many xtians will claim "Ah but Yahwegod didn't want us to know what he was going to do back then, so he made things a bit vague.
For the sake of band width I'll not go any further into insane logic for the moment, it's enough to say that a prediction has to be quite specific, and the various texts you quoted are far from that.
reply posted on 3-3-2009 @ 06:53 PM by TruthParadox
reply to post by moocowman
You're right...
Religious prophecies must be vague but not too vague.
It's a fine line that has to be met for a religion to flourish. It creates enough curiosity and wonder without being falsifiable.
Just like a fortune teller.
Damn... I know so much about this stuff, it almost makes me want to start my own religion and see how far it goes
.
21st century religion, anyone?
You're right...
Religious prophecies must be vague but not too vague.
It's a fine line that has to be met for a religion to flourish. It creates enough curiosity and wonder without being falsifiable.
Just like a fortune teller.
Damn... I know so much about this stuff, it almost makes me want to start my own religion and see how far it goes
. 21st century religion, anyone?
reply posted on 3-3-2009 @ 07:00 PM by moocowman
reply to post by TruthParadox
Just like the prophet Paul or L Ron Hubbard not forgetting Joseph Smith and that watchtower dude.
You know I often consider this line of work myself, wasn't it Barnum that once said "there's a mug born everyday" ?
Her's an old thread, perhaps the new religion of Yodagod would bring some cash in
[edit on 3-3-2009 by moocowman]
Damn... I know so much about this stuff, it almost makes me want to start my own religion and see how far it goes .
Just like the prophet Paul or L Ron Hubbard not forgetting Joseph Smith and that watchtower dude.
You know I often consider this line of work myself, wasn't it Barnum that once said "there's a mug born everyday" ?
Her's an old thread, perhaps the new religion of Yodagod would bring some cash in
www.belowtopsecret.com...
[edit on 3-3-2009 by moocowman]
reply posted on 3-3-2009 @ 07:02 PM by OldThinker
reply to post by moocowman
moo! that was the LONGEST answer I've seen from u...I'm with my boys playin GoldenTee at the local...kickin their butts,btw... I'llget back with u tomorrow ....did u refute the hundreds of predicted items on the link or just mess with my posted?
OT
moo! that was the LONGEST answer I've seen from u...I'm with my boys playin GoldenTee at the local...kickin their butts,btw... I'llget back with u tomorrow ....did u refute the hundreds of predicted items on the link or just mess with my posted?
OT
reply posted on 3-3-2009 @ 07:05 PM by moocowman
Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by moocowman
moo! that was the LONGEST answer I've seen from u...I'm with my boys playin GoldenTee at the local...kickin their butts,btw... I'llget back with u tomorrow ....did u refute the hundreds of predicted items on the link or just mess with my posted?
Find out 2 moz enjoy your game OT
OT
reply posted on 3-3-2009 @ 07:08 PM by Welfhard
reply to post by OldThinker
I'm glad you asked these questions, OT. Take notes, this will be on the final.
Not sure where this idea comes from. All life on earth is continually supported by one thing which gives us all our energy either directly or indirectly, the sun. As life goes on, energy radiates from our planet, effectively being lost, but we gain more energy from the sun than we loose. The sun itself has a limited supply of fuel however and will eventually run out. Because of that, evolution does not violate the first law.
On a second note, the first law doesn't even apply because evolution is an open system. Conservation of the first law will only be kept if you are dealing with a closed system.
No because life is just a thing called organic chemistry. Complexity and largeness of living organisms is a direct result of the second law, entropy in chemistry. Change in a organism occurs when a circumstantial mistake is made. The mistake is either good bad or neutral. Most bad mistakes kill the organism, but neutral and good mistakes remain. Given time, 3 billion years, mistakes will produce the complexity and variety that we see in life today.
No and I HAVE to call you obscenely ignorant on this one. Evolution is the theory that explains the diversity of life, not where it comes from. The explanation for how life starts is abiogenesis, a totally different science. If you look up abiogenesis you'll find that the first forms of life were not fully alive, similar to a virus (MRSGREN). The first forms didn't "perpetuate" in a reproductive sense at all, they just feed and grew- then they broke apart forming new individuals. But that is not the Theory of evolution at all.
Also if you are going to use that you need to define the word "Kind". creationists refuse to define it.
There is no missing link, there hasn't been a missing link in human evolution in 40 years!
Human evolution
Ken Miller is a catholic scientist.
Apart from that, just about every single thing in the fossil record is a piece of evidence supporting evolution. The fossil record is limited by the fact that requires very particular circumstances to produce fossils. You go on a holiday and have one long experience, doing all sorts of things with friends. You end up with photos representing snapshots in time of only an instance. With out memory of the holiday, it would be very difficult to put the photos in order. That's what happens with transitional forms (all forms are transitional by the way, including us). Look up archaeopteryx. It's an avian dinosaur and an ancestor of modern birds.
Cont-
[edit on 3-3-2009 by Welfhard]
I'm glad you asked these questions, OT. Take notes, this will be on the final.
Doesn’t evolution violate the First Law of Thermodynamics, the law of energy conservation, which states that energy can be converted from one form into another, but it can neither be created or destroyed? YEP!
Not sure where this idea comes from. All life on earth is continually supported by one thing which gives us all our energy either directly or indirectly, the sun. As life goes on, energy radiates from our planet, effectively being lost, but we gain more energy from the sun than we loose. The sun itself has a limited supply of fuel however and will eventually run out. Because of that, evolution does not violate the first law.
On a second note, the first law doesn't even apply because evolution is an open system. Conservation of the first law will only be kept if you are dealing with a closed system.
Doesn’t evolution violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics, the law of energy decay? The energy available for useful work in a functioning system tends to decrease, even though the total energy remains constant. Structured systems progress from a more orderly, more complex, state to a less orderly, disorganized, and random state. YEP!
No because life is just a thing called organic chemistry. Complexity and largeness of living organisms is a direct result of the second law, entropy in chemistry. Change in a organism occurs when a circumstantial mistake is made. The mistake is either good bad or neutral. Most bad mistakes kill the organism, but neutral and good mistakes remain. Given time, 3 billion years, mistakes will produce the complexity and variety that we see in life today.
Doesn’t evolution violate the Law of Biogenesis that life comes only from preexisting life and will only perpetuate its own kind?
No and I HAVE to call you obscenely ignorant on this one. Evolution is the theory that explains the diversity of life, not where it comes from. The explanation for how life starts is abiogenesis, a totally different science. If you look up abiogenesis you'll find that the first forms of life were not fully alive, similar to a virus (MRSGREN). The first forms didn't "perpetuate" in a reproductive sense at all, they just feed and grew- then they broke apart forming new individuals. But that is not the Theory of evolution at all.
Also if you are going to use that you need to define the word "Kind". creationists refuse to define it.
Is there not any evidence in the fossil record to substantiate evolution?
Hasn’t the fossil record failed to document a single, verifiable "missing link" between ape and man? Maybe some neat drawing, but nothing verifiable right?
There is no missing link, there hasn't been a missing link in human evolution in 40 years!
Human evolution
Ken Miller is a catholic scientist.
Apart from that, just about every single thing in the fossil record is a piece of evidence supporting evolution. The fossil record is limited by the fact that requires very particular circumstances to produce fossils. You go on a holiday and have one long experience, doing all sorts of things with friends. You end up with photos representing snapshots in time of only an instance. With out memory of the holiday, it would be very difficult to put the photos in order. That's what happens with transitional forms (all forms are transitional by the way, including us). Look up archaeopteryx. It's an avian dinosaur and an ancestor of modern birds.
Cont-
[edit on 3-3-2009 by Welfhard]
reply posted on 3-3-2009 @ 07:25 PM by Welfhard
reply to post by OldThinker
OK what ever, just don't start a debate you can't finish. Also these claims are all tired old creationist garbage. It should be known that all challenges that creationists have made against evolution have been met pretty well immediately. So if you get these from answers in genesis or something, keep in mind that anyone with any decent scientific knowledge will be able to pick them apart.
These creationist challenges only convince the ignorant. Have a look:
An Index to Creationist Claims
[edit on 3-3-2009 by Welfhard]
OK what ever, just don't start a debate you can't finish. Also these claims are all tired old creationist garbage. It should be known that all challenges that creationists have made against evolution have been met pretty well immediately. So if you get these from answers in genesis or something, keep in mind that anyone with any decent scientific knowledge will be able to pick them apart.
These creationist challenges only convince the ignorant. Have a look:
An Index to Creationist Claims
[edit on 3-3-2009 by Welfhard]
reply posted on 3-3-2009 @ 07:32 PM by MischeviousElf
What happens if you are the creator?
Or all of us collectively?
Ever thought about that, I was dreaming last night an there was lots and lots of evidence for what my eyes..... oh wait there they were closed how come there was light in my dream?
how did that get there? How is there light in dreams just the same way as we see it?
and feeling?
and taste?
and sound?
I wonder....
Anyhow your whole hypothesis of the OP is about 1000 years too late (the cross) as this man has proved, the true secrets of the Cross lie in the ancient Celtic and previous to that Indian subcontinent Knot work and patterns...
The Truth About The Cross
Kind Regards,
Elf
Or all of us collectively?
Ever thought about that, I was dreaming last night an there was lots and lots of evidence for what my eyes..... oh wait there they were closed how come there was light in my dream?
how did that get there? How is there light in dreams just the same way as we see it?
and feeling?
and taste?
and sound?
I wonder....
Anyhow your whole hypothesis of the OP is about 1000 years too late (the cross) as this man has proved, the true secrets of the Cross lie in the ancient Celtic and previous to that Indian subcontinent Knot work and patterns...
Resurrected by Crichton E M Miller in 1997 the ancient working cross has been awarded two Patents.
The cross was demonstrated twice at Cambridge University by invitation in 2006 and 2007.
The Truth About The Cross
Kind Regards,
Elf
reply posted on 3-3-2009 @ 07:36 PM by OldThinker
reply to post by Welfhard
Welfhard, Congrats you are smarter than OT!
Come see me in 30 yrs.....who will still be here...with a legacy of great, great g-children? You or me?
I'm kinda busy 2nite...mooo seeemed to see....yet u still wanna argue?
What's up with? u stilll drinkin' ?
Welfhard, Congrats you are smarter than OT!
Come see me in 30 yrs.....who will still be here...with a legacy of great, great g-children? You or me?
I'm kinda busy 2nite...mooo seeemed to see....yet u still wanna argue?
What's up with? u stilll drinkin' ?
reply posted on 3-3-2009 @ 07:47 PM by Welfhard
reply to post by OldThinker
I don't overly wanna argue but you made some rather bad claims about evolution being impossible which I felt I needed to address.
I am drinking but it takes a lot to get me even tipsy. I'm a uni student so I always have some amount of alcohol in my system. So far tonight I've had a few KGB's and a couple of beers.
.................
I've got to go off now, get some tea. I'll be back on later tonight to talk about that whole "All the right circumstances (sun, earth, moon, crust, atmosphere, etc) exist for intelligent life to occurr- this can't be a coincidence" thing you mentioned earlier. K.
[edit on 3-3-2009 by Welfhard]
I don't overly wanna argue but you made some rather bad claims about evolution being impossible which I felt I needed to address.
I am drinking but it takes a lot to get me even tipsy. I'm a uni student so I always have some amount of alcohol in my system. So far tonight I've had a few KGB's and a couple of beers.
.................
I've got to go off now, get some tea. I'll be back on later tonight to talk about that whole "All the right circumstances (sun, earth, moon, crust, atmosphere, etc) exist for intelligent life to occurr- this can't be a coincidence" thing you mentioned earlier. K.
[edit on 3-3-2009 by Welfhard]
reply posted on 3-3-2009 @ 09:35 PM by Welfhard
OK now where was I.
That is not evidence of creation. These are requirements for us as we are now to exist and survive. I read a book by Isaac Asumov in high school about the requirements for life to exist in the universe. Quite eye opening.
Wikipedia
The fact is that every single one of those 530,000 civilizations has individuals making lists like you posted. You may think that it is somehow cosmically significant that these conditions but they are fairly common everywhere.
[edit on 3-3-2009 by Welfhard]
Consider some of the amazing aspects of design that are evident in our solar system:
[snip]
All of this happened just by chance? I think someone would have to commit intellectual suicide to believe that. What does your logic say as you consider the evidence?
That is not evidence of creation. These are requirements for us as we are now to exist and survive. I read a book by Isaac Asumov in high school about the requirements for life to exist in the universe. Quite eye opening.
Extraterrestrial Civilizations is a book written by Isaac Asimov in 1979, wherein the probability of there being intelligent extraterrestrial civilizations within the Milky Way galaxy is estimated. This estimation is approached by progressively analyzing the requirements for life to exist.
The term "Earth-like world" is prominent, in that the assumption is made that any world where life could evolve would have certain similarities to Earth, such as temperature ranges and gravity sufficient for an atmosphere to exist. Asimov begins with the estimated amount of stars in the galaxy, 300 billion.
This number is then reduced to 280 billion as stars without planetary systems are discarded, and then furthermore reduced as more factors are taken into consideration. This process culminates in the statement that "the number of planets in our galaxy on which a technological civilization is now in being is roughly 530,000."
Wikipedia
The fact is that every single one of those 530,000 civilizations has individuals making lists like you posted. You may think that it is somehow cosmically significant that these conditions but they are fairly common everywhere.
[edit on 3-3-2009 by Welfhard]
reply posted on 29-3-2009 @ 08:14 PM by bloodWolf762
reply to post by OldThinker
This is interesting and I watched the little video, but even a little research will show that it does not always look like a cross, it bends and twists. It's actually made up of three separate parts, called the A, B1, and B2 chains. That gives it really a total of six "ends", which accounts for a lot of its flexibility in connecting up various kinds of molecules. Because of this, scientists who create biomaterials are extremely interested in the whole family of laminins. They use them to create artificial substrates for transplants.
I found pictures of laminin in the human body that actually look like a pitchfork (it has six ends, maybe the devil did it), a cross, an upside down peace sign (or sword), among other things. Laminin is not a uniform cross shape all the time. I wouldn't base faith on this.
This is interesting and I watched the little video, but even a little research will show that it does not always look like a cross, it bends and twists. It's actually made up of three separate parts, called the A, B1, and B2 chains. That gives it really a total of six "ends", which accounts for a lot of its flexibility in connecting up various kinds of molecules. Because of this, scientists who create biomaterials are extremely interested in the whole family of laminins. They use them to create artificial substrates for transplants.
I found pictures of laminin in the human body that actually look like a pitchfork (it has six ends, maybe the devil did it), a cross, an upside down peace sign (or sword), among other things. Laminin is not a uniform cross shape all the time. I wouldn't base faith on this.
reply posted on 29-3-2009 @ 09:12 PM by bloodWolf762
reply to post by OldThinker
If there was nothing before Creation, where did God, the sentient, all-knowing, all-powerful deity come from? No one from any organized religion will even attempt to answer this question, well, actually they usually say that 'he just is,' or 'have faith'. The closest I've gotten is the Kabbalah in Jewish mysticism, but their description of God's origins looks and sounds a lot like evolution.
If there was nothing before Creation, where did God, the sentient, all-knowing, all-powerful deity come from? No one from any organized religion will even attempt to answer this question, well, actually they usually say that 'he just is,' or 'have faith'. The closest I've gotten is the Kabbalah in Jewish mysticism, but their description of God's origins looks and sounds a lot like evolution.
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