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If it wasn’t for Jesus, you would cease to exist! Really…

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posted on Feb, 27 2009 @ 10:48 AM
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reply to post by dodgygeeza
 

D, Are you forgetting JUSTICE?

OT




posted on Feb, 27 2009 @ 10:49 AM
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reply to post by dodgygeeza
 


D, I think you are being simplistic...I'll be back later to explain...thx for your input!



posted on Feb, 27 2009 @ 10:51 AM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by dodgygeeza
 

D, Are you forgetting JUSTICE?

OT



Justice has limits in my opinion. Would it be that important for you to create pain and suffering to avenge pain and suffering?

If there is such a place, don't you think after just 1 minute of being in such a place you will be eternally repentant? What about 60 years?



posted on Feb, 27 2009 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by nj2day
However, your post begs the question:

Doesn't this mean that before Jesus came about, people couldn't have existed?


That right there is why you are on my list of friends. Keep up the sarcastic wit. I love it.

That or, before Christ, spontaneous human combustion was a daily occurrence.



posted on Feb, 27 2009 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by OldThinker

fittest?
adaptable?

You are splitting hairs...really.
no not even close

which is the fitest? a bacteria or a lion?

a mouse or a shark?

fittest has nothing to do with being the biggest meanest fastest strongest, he who adapts first laugh last



Respectfully...if you have the presumption/faith to believe that time and chance and more time and chance...helped animals grow bumps, then they flapped um' and flew...more power to ya....
really wanna go into this one OT? .... the creationism boards kinda quiet .. new sport else where may be fun

time and chance?
... hmm time natural selection random mutation sexual selection, recombianat chromosones, speciation , enviromental isolation predation......... little bit more involved were not allowed to use simple ..becasue he wanted it like that answers


Occams Razor would agree an all powerful God doing that would be far more probable....


dudes thats not occams razor thats yahwehs sheep shears your waving around, they are about as sharp as bush in a crissis


Occam's razor
"Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate" or "plurality should not be posited without necessity." Simplified to "'More things should not be suggested than are needed.'"


you creating extra factors to explain somthing that already has a working explenation that accounts for all the facts and doesnt need to create ANY extra facotrs beyond what has been observed and tested

but its not just 1 extra factor, becasue it has many properties eternal omnipotent omniscient omnipresent loving caring forgiving

occam's razor in action ..the one with the least additional factors wins !

again removes factors that have no real evidence or need to be there

and just for fun

christianity V's Atheism the occam's razor way




hell you can even apply it to the words

natural V' super/natural ......... see the extra none required part ready for shaving?


The evolutionist, God love um...is at a loss when it comes to explaining complexity...sorry...


hmm ok maybe you can explain the comlexity of the human eye and why god wired it backwards like a retard but got it right in octopus?

maybe you can explain why the complexity of atavims and why they only work the way they would if evolution and claditic/taxonomic trees were accurate representaitions of the heredity of speices?

maybe you explain the complex reason thats 99.9% of the all the species ever to grace the earth are dead .. extinct finito ....

and maybe you can explain the omplex issues of why the bible thinks whales are fish? and snakes ever had the vocal ability to pronounce words
...(and the its was satan i tells ya wont work becasue that makes god an idiot if you use that excuse)



claiming occams razor redicts supernatural causes is akin to stating gravity makes things move apart

ad if yu really want to talk about complexity and not enough time ... the time since humans and chimps split from thier ommon ancetor and arrived where they are today is just 0.0006 of a percent of all the time multicellular life has been on earth (that we know of)






[edit on 27/2/09 by noobfun]



posted on Feb, 27 2009 @ 11:50 AM
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Originally posted by Irish M1ck

Originally posted by nj2day
However, your post begs the question:

Doesn't this mean that before Jesus came about, people couldn't have existed?


That right there is why you are on my list of friends. Keep up the sarcastic wit. I love it.

That or, before Christ, spontaneous human combustion was a daily occurrence.


I do love nj2day's wit too, and he knows it...

You affirmation, however Mick, is correct...IF you ASSUME JC is only a man...

OT doesn't...HE pre-existed man, the universe, and everything 'created'



Heb.1:2 states that God... has in these last days spoken to us by his Son whom he has appointed heir of all things, through whom he made the worlds. "this agrees with Jn. 1:3 " all things were made through him and without him nothing was made that was made." All means all, not all other things as the Jehovah witnesses insert in Col.1..


The same Son that is speaking to us now was present at creation. This is the same Son that was in the bosom of the Father before any thing was created Ex Nihilo. Hebrews 1:2 tells us that God made the worlds through the Son. The Son had to have existed before anything was created, to create everything that exists, so does the Father.therefore they are both uncreated.

Ps.33:6 By the Word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth

vs.9 For he spake, and it was done, he commanded, and it stood fast." Christ is the word. Ps.148:1-6 "For he commanded and they were created." Col. 1:16-17 Speaking of the Son, "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.This means he is not one of those things created if he is before them.

Here we find the consistency of the N.T. of his preexistence as the creator yet as Heb.1:2 says it was through him God made everything. We can see the Sons role was not a secondary one but primary, that creation was from the Father- through the Son- and by the Spirit. The Father as the source created through the Son who is the agent and the Spirit was the power.

Heb. 7:3 the author of Hebrews describes Melchezidek as one without Father or mother, without genealogy; having neither beginning or end of life, like the Son of God, he remains a priest forever." Here he is giving the comparison of Melchezidek as a type of Christ in that he always existed. He also parallel’s the eternal priesthood and the Son as an eternal being without beginning of days or end of life. The writer of Hebrews used the three most important subjects to the Jews, the angels, the high priest, and the resurrection and we find the Son who is compared to them all, is superior. All of these were earthly examples of heavenly truths.

In Dan.7:9,13,and 22 he writes about the ancient of days which indicates him as the Father. In vs.13 we read about another called the "Son of man" who in vs.14 is called the most high (also verses 18, 22, 25, 27). The Son of man is seen in a vision as coming to the ancient of days, with the clouds of heaven vs.13, this correlates with Rev.1:7 as the clouds usually refer to glory.



source: www.letusreason.org...


Issue: @ BAY here is........who's assumption is right?


Time will SURELY tell...



posted on Feb, 27 2009 @ 11:56 AM
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reply to post by noobfun
 


noobfun, hey! hansome!

That WAS my point....no need for OT to argue words/semantics/in regard to the prior post I was responding too...

Only the strong (adaptable) survive vs. God so loved the world?

I'm going with the latter bro!



And I'll let you in a a lil' secret....you want to, too!


OT always honored to have you in the fry big boy! Also got this new coffee maker, sweet! Does a cup, small, med or large one at a time..also got some Paul Newman coffee with it...not bad!



posted on Feb, 27 2009 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker

noobfun, hey! hansome!

That WAS my point....no need for OT to argue words/semantics/in regard to the prior post I was responding too...

Only the strong (adaptable) survive vs. God so loved the world?
but the semantics do imply such very different meanings it stops becoming a matter of semantic

and in referance to your choice from the options above ....


maybe you explain the complex reason thats 99.9% of the all the species ever to grace the earth are dead .. extinct finito ....
didnt he love those ones?


And I'll let you in a a lil' secret....you want to, too!
wow that really is a secret even i dont know that .,.,,

to tell you the truth the way you keep trying to pull out science and logic and logical constructs like occams razor ... im starting to think theres a realist in there desperate to break out


stay away from occams razor its sharp he might just cut his way free


OT always honored to have you in the fry big boy! Also got this new coffee maker, sweet! Does a cup, small, med or large one at a time..also got some Paul Newman coffee with it...not bad!


coffee's always good ^_^ keeps me on my toe's and helps with the reducing the anit-evo's complexities

see thats why we cant explain complexity ... we make it into several simple components that explain it better ... it makes Behe cry




posted on Feb, 27 2009 @ 12:17 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
It’s a protein found in the extracellular matrix, the sheets of protein that form the substrate of all internal organs also called the basement membrane.


It's ironic that you should mention this. I read a book one time that referred to protein as being the "fingerprint of God."



posted on Feb, 27 2009 @ 12:52 PM
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reply to post by SpeakerofTruth
 

hmmm???

Lotta implications to that one!

OT



posted on Feb, 27 2009 @ 01:55 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
hmmm???

Lotta implications to that one!


two off the top of my head

god has very very small fingers

people will attribute anything to god to make them selves feel better

you would think all thee fingers prints and bit of god apparently left everywhere someone might have come up with some real evidence for him .... does no one in the appologetic movment watch CSI?



posted on Feb, 27 2009 @ 01:58 PM
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reply to post by noobfun
 




Like you said to me last month...

Stop messin up the thread!


OT



posted on Feb, 27 2009 @ 02:05 PM
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reply to post by noobfun
 


Yeah, he's in the small things too!


That's why I still here!


[edit on 27-2-2009 by OldThinker]



posted on Feb, 27 2009 @ 02:22 PM
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All signs that we experience indicate the design of a human mind. From facial gestures to traffic signs, from languages to music. In the OP, the sign (the cross in the laminin) is only interpreted as a sign, because it is appears to be a sign to the human mind that sees it. So, just as with numerology, if you are looking for a sign and already have a very simple idea of what the sign look like (a cross), then you will see it everywhere. For this reason, the OP is very sad evidence for the existence of a Christian God, considering how many meanings crosses have. We may find evidence of signs which are NOT human in origin, but this does not demonstrate the existence of a God. Rather, it demonstrates a problem with any theory that assumes that only humans use signs. One may simply revise the theory and include aliens, or a world-soul, or even chrononauts. There are many possible non-theistic explanations for any sign-based data which purports to prove the existence of God.

Unfortunately for the atheist, however, Occam's razor cuts both ways. It's not so kind to atheists as many atheists believe it to be. If you accept the principle that the simpler system is to be preferred, then what will you do if there are some phenomena that atheism simply fails to explain? These inexplicable phenomena, of course, will not be material phenomena because all matter is described by science.

Suppose we found that one of our more nebulous concepts like justice or love could not be explained in atheistic terms with anything like the simplicity with which these concepts could be explained in theistic terms. What then? So, logically speaking, we may choose to invoke Occam's razor, but until all the votes are in -- until the competing theories are complete -- we cannot decide definitively which side has the simpler explanation. For example, you should see the kind of logical knots that materialist philosophers tie themselves into when they try to explain language.

All this said, believing in God because it is a more aesthetically appealing belief than Darwinian evolution (as Old Thinker claims) is only a sufficient reason for believing in God if all other rational options are exhausted. I do not reject such a choice, but if this choice comes at the expense of either reason or pragmatic preference, then it is ought to be dispensed with.

Fortunately for theists, there are versions of theism that are both pragmatic and rational, so it is probably safe to maintain theism for aesthetic reasons, despite the atheist's introduction of Occam's razor.

I, however, consider myself a cross between pantheist and agnostic. I suppose this makes me the optimistic cousin of an atheist.

-Priam's Pride

(Edited for clarity)

[edit on 27-2-2009 by PriamsPride]

[edit on 27-2-2009 by PriamsPride]



posted on Feb, 27 2009 @ 02:42 PM
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reply to post by PriamsPride
 


PP, Welcome to ATS!

And a great first post on the thread...Hopefully later I'll get back and digest the content Good stuff, well thought out...

Cousin? watch out for those IN-LAWS


OT



posted on Feb, 27 2009 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by Christ!
 


I think its more along the line of dying to self-fishness...and serve others.

OT



It's whatever we think is our "life" at the moment.
The body is only part of a larger self-fishness complex.
I'm speaking of self-fishness in terms of differences.
Differences make the concept of "others".
So long as you serve "others", you serve differences.

The body is part of a complex expression of differences, unique characteristics, and special status.
Such expressions are not of the true GoD.
Such expression are designs of the false gOd.
The false gOd gives us a "life" as unique, different and special.
This is the "life" that Jesus asks us to "die" to.
Special status leads to betrayal which leads to crucifixion.
Such a life *is* a "cross".
Special status requires the sacrifice of perfection.
The truth is: GoD already gave us perfection.
To the special, perfection is a kind of *problem*.
If all were perfect, none would be different or special.
This pits special status against perfection.
This pits self-concepts against Self.
"People" are self-concepts who don't want to be perfect because they don't want to be the same as everybody else.
This is the *life-blood* so-to-speak, of humanity.
This life-blood is what manifests the human body phenom.
This life-blood must be *taken* from perfection, because the true GoD will not give it.
Only as perfection dies does special status seem to "live".
But, because special status is a lie, it is really not Life.
Rather, it is a kind of living death.
The separated can't "live" separately.
So, the self-fish always "die".
If the self-fish always "die", why not "die" to the concept of special status once and for all?
It is because the special somehow understand that special status does not end with physical death.
And they would prefer to take their chances with an ongoing special status.
Otherwise, they would prefer not to exist as all..as same and equal to Self.
Does that sound crazy?
Well, who ever said that sin was sane?
The "life" of the special is powerfully driven.
This drive prohibits them from interpreting correctly Self-saving statements.
So, the special are always confused and confusing.

Christ!





[edit on 27-2-2009 by Christ!]



posted on Feb, 27 2009 @ 05:45 PM
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What I believe and its most likely true is that people have existed for thousands of years before God and Jesus. If God really did create everything why did he wait several thousand years to speak up and influence humanity? If he really did create everything he would have set down his rules and regulations from day one.
But in reality God and Jesus didn't exist until man invented them.

So saith the Darkice.



posted on Feb, 27 2009 @ 05:58 PM
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Originally posted by Darkice19
What I believe and its most likely true is that people have existed for thousands of years before God and Jesus. If God really did create everything why did he wait several thousand years to speak up and influence humanity? If he really did create everything he would have set down his rules and regulations from day one.
But in reality God and Jesus didn't exist until man invented them.

So saith the Darkice.


Humanity is a manifestation of an ear-closing process.
Humanity is a manifestation of a walking away from reality.
What is wandering away from reality is mind.
Your mind.
GoD has called your mind back to reality since if first wandered off.
You have not heard.
So, man has ears that do not hear.
Blessed are they with "ears to hear".
By the time one manifests as "man", he is fairly close-minded.
It's a challenge to penetrate the darkeness [confusion] held dear within man's mind.
The world of man is made by man's maker, sometimes called "gOd"...or "G-d"...or "G.d"...whatever.
This gOd has set down the rules since day one.
Don't worry, you aren't breaking any of its rules.
If you feel guilt, it's because you are keeping its rules!
gOd didn't exist until *you* invented him.
After inventing him, he invented humanity.
So what you invented has invented "you"...which is a lie.
"You" lie about the true GoD with every breath.
If "you" exist, GoD must be dead.

Christ!



posted on Feb, 27 2009 @ 06:07 PM
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Wow.... another religious thread.

I saw the video and shut it off quickly hearing the same tone millionaire preachers say.

if people can't exist before jesus then how would jesus be a son?

I am just saying logically region of any time doesn't make any sense.

It's all old politics. It's the start of politics.

Cause they create believes and scare people to force them into thinking that if you don't believe in god you will go the under the earths crust and burn.

If you need a book to tell you how to live your life then be a follower. Just follow a leader and have faith he will save you.

cause if he turns around and mug you then well... believe in god.



posted on Feb, 27 2009 @ 07:49 PM
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reply to post by computerwiz32
 



thank you or your thoughts, although a tad sporatic...if it means anything the chessi-ness bugged me too...wish you would have heard the entire message...but good try anyway!

OT




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