Sea Shepherd Protesters Ram Japanese Whalers in Intense Clash

reply to post by Leto


If a creature is sentience, they are undoubtedly worthy of us recognizing their existence and intelligence, especially cetaceans (Whales, Dolphins). Sentience is big part of intelligence.

(Third "A>" down. Some of the ways whales are intelligent in their own right)
Link

Whales do feel pleasure and pain. If this is so, why do whalers harpoon and skin them? That's one good question you should answer. Plants do not have a working brain, therefore they cannot be sentient. Are you really going to claim whales are not conscious and self aware? They don't realize they are alive and strive to survive? Cetaceans are of the most human-like intelligence on this planet. Don’t tie them together with fish.

Again, animals are not as smart as humans are, but that does NOT mean they are not intelligent. Human intelligence is NOT the measuring point of intelligence for all creatures.

reply to post by Kalrana



How can you get confused over culling non native , fast breeding pests in your own back yard , that cause devastation to stock , property and livelihood , to traveling half way around the world into international waters to hunt an endangered species in its native habitat ?

They are not even hunting them in their own waters were any "traditional" hunting would have happened.

Do you really think they have a leg to stand on ?

reply to post by bkcrt


no you don't- i lived in alaskaand had some inuit freinds(legal for them to hunt)- where i had whale. it is actually quite good.

Originally posted by Saf85
reply to post by bigfoot1212

 

Here, Hear, finally some sense coming out of this hippy thread. Sure whales are nice and wonderous and so on, but they are somehow being put ahead of human lives in terms of value, mainly by retarded activists who do not know anything other than their cause!

Anyone putting the animals rights and lives ahead of a fellow humans, should do us all a favour and go get married to one of these animals, go live with them and maybe one day get hunted just like one lol.

Hmm human lives valuable?? more valuable then huge marine mammals that basically want nothing to do with us and are extremely important to the ecosystem or 4 billion resource wasting planet killing animals that MOST (like you) are ignorant to how important certain creatures are to this planet. You and mrbigfoot whatever his name is should jump in the ocean with your family and ill fire a harpoon into your face and into your partner and kids just for scientific research (but actually eat them later) and see how much of a problem that would be too you. Sorry but there is no way humans are more important than any of those creatures period.

That's something I also find hilarious , indigenous populations claiming "traditional" hunting rights but not using traditional methods.

Its so hard to take them seriously.

Ahh Epicwolf your link to madmermaids helps prove a point about hidden agendas
The owner is a guy by the name of John Setchell. A well known Animal libber with close ties to the Sea Shepards and Greenpeace. Hardly an unbiased source.

Originally posted by thedeadtruth
reply to post by Kalrana

 

How can you get confused over culling non native , fast breeding pests in your own back yard , that cause devastation to stock , property and livelihood , to traveling half way around the world into international waters to hunt an endangered species in its native habitat ?

They are not even hunting them in their own waters were any "traditional" hunting would have happened.

Do you really think they have a leg to stand on ?

Mate your the confused one go back and reread the threads.
Your the one trying to make out im saying things im not.
Typical AL tactics. Muddy the waters, totally ignore any facts presented to them and carefully select and misrepresent a few words.
""A real hunter also ALWAYS does a fast kill . No wounding shoots are allowed and killing young mothers or pregnant pray is considered the lowest of the low." - you wrote
"You have obviously never been on a cull where all animals young and old are wiped out. "- i replied. NOTICE IT WAS ABOUT HUNTERS not SPECIFICALLY WHALERS WE WERE BOTH TALKING ABOUT
then:
So you are now saying its an organized "cull" of whales , so killing everything you come into contact with is the actual aim of the Japanese . was what you came out with WTF???? HOW DO YOU MAKE SUCH A LARGE JUMP?
I then replied "No not all my comments were aimed at " killing young mothers or pregnant pray (PREY) is considered the lowest of the low." Done plenty of culls with ssaa cpm and parks victoria where any and all non-native animals were destroyed. Young, pregnant, old it didnt matter, they had to be destroyed. Better with a bullet than a slow death via poison AGAIN REFERING BACK THE HUNTING COMMENTS which then lead to the above comment.

That's something I also find hilarious , indigenous populations claiming "traditional" hunting rights but not using traditional methods.
At least something we agree on. Reread my earlier comments

Now i notice that nowhere in this thread has any anti whalers come up with a good argument or disproved the FACTS i and other pro whalers have presented. Only emotional arguments and claims of sentience in whales. and Skinons comments only back up my claims that "Every argument ive ever had with AL ends in them advocating violence against a fellow human being, yet ive never heard one hunter calling for a season on feral greenies and the looney left.... Geez you guys a violent bunch. Ever heard of HOPLOPHOBIA? Defense Mechanisms? Projection? Hmmm i often wonder how much these influence arguments like this. Throw in "Bambi Syndrome", or its scientific name "Swolenogin Bambitis Ignoramus" and you end up in these types of arguments."


Ive been playing games with animal libbers for close to 20 years now. I know the tactics, i know how you guys try to play the game. If people like Laurie Levy cant beat me, well then you guys have got no chance

Only the emotionally immature participate in violent protest, no matter the cause. Only the emotionally immature support the activities of violent protesters. People will get hurt. People may even be killed. No solution will ever come because of the violence. Only peaceful negotiation and legislation will ever bring about change. Violent protest will never make this happen and in fact slows down the process. Those protesters are just a bunch of children out on big party instead of doing something productive, no matter their true physical age. Real life is not a YouTube Video.

I don't really know a polite way to state this, even though it is true, so I'll leave it at that.

I admire anyone who can stand up for a cause for which they long, through a Passionate Fire within. However, after watching Season 1 of Animal Planet's "Whale Wars", I came away with mixed emotions.

For one, I do agree that the Japanese are concealing the true intent of their Whaling, and it seems blatantly obvious as well. They are conducting these Operations for very little True Scientific Purpose, but rather for Commercial Products and Produce.

However, I am also very familiar with the fact that Whale Meat is a fairly common food item in Japan. It has always been a part of Japanese Cuisine, especially in Seafood Markets, and due to such I believe the Japanese have a right to consume it.

I must also mention the Tactics which the "Sea Shepherds" have been using as well. Their harassment of the Whaling Vessels is enough, but when they in fact forcibly board another vessel uninvited, they are for all intents and purposes taking part in Piracy. The First and Foremost Rule of the Sea is that you must ALWAYS have the Skipper's (Or Ranking Officer on Deck) Permission before boarding a Vessel. It is one thing if you are an Official Boarding/Interdiction Party acting on behalf of a Recognized Governmental Entity, and doing so to Maintain Laws and/or Security, but these individuals are FAR from such.


This incident is yet again another example of how a Seemingly Good Cause can result in danger to Human Life. When an Unofficial, Non-Authorized Interdiction Mission such as this is put into place, it must only be carried out so long as Human Life, Property, and all Applicable Laws are Respected to the Fullest.

Kalrana....... I muddied the water..?

My comment..

How can you get confused over culling non native , fast breeding pests in your own back yard , that cause devastation to stock , property and livelihood , to traveling half way around the world into international waters to hunt an endangered species in its native habitat ?

Was in direct response to you voluntarily mentioning and hence suggesting that what the Japanese are doing has ANYTHING to do with a controlled cull of pests and killing off pregnant whales and calves is somehow applicable to that task.

Again I will point out we are talking about a wild endangered species in its natural habitat being slaughtered indiscriminately for money. Not for the good of the environment. And no I do not believe ANYONE has a right to do that. They can shove their flimsy "fake" tradition you know where.

Here is a point , if the whales do become extinct what will they do , curl up and die , no they will stop eating whale and something else will become a "traditional" dish.

EVERYTHING I have mentioned is relevant to this topic , including hunter ethics ( you made excuses for their failures ) Just keep on topic and maybe no one will get confused as to your opinion .

P.S. I am no animal rights activist , but I know bullsh*t when I see it.

I came across this article today ..

Iceland raises whaling quota to allow 300 kills a year February 6, 2009

Iceland's government has unveiled a steep rise in its disputed commercial whale hunt, a sixfold increase allowing the killing of 150 fin whales and up to 150 minke whales a year. Iceland, which pulled out of an international whaling moratorium in 2006 after observing it for 16 years, had a quota of nine fin whales and 40 minke whales per year.
Source

I also found this rather interesting article..

Early whales gave birth on land: study 1 day ago WASHINGTON (AFP) — Early whales gave birth -- and probably rested and mated -- on land, according to a study published Wednesday that examined 47.5 million-year-old fossils discovered in Pakistan. The "stunning discovery" reinforces the belief that modern sea-dwelling mammals originated from terrestrial ancestors, said H. Richard Lane, director of the National Science Foundation's paleontology program, which funded the research
Source

It's amazing how long these creatures have survived & evolved...
I wonder how much longer before they go the way of the Dodo...

Edit: Typo corrected

[edit on 7-2-2009 by yizzel]

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen
For one, I do agree that the Japanese are concealing the true intent of their Whaling, and it seems blatantly obvious as well. They are conducting these Operations for very little True Scientific Purpose, but rather for Commercial Products and Produce.

I've never understood why so many people think Japan is trying to hide anything.

It's all pretty clear - the research program is designed to develop a baseline picture of the health and distribution of current stocks, in order to develop a plan for the resumption of commercial whaling on a sustainable basis. The sale of whale meat from the current program funds ongoing research, both lethal and non-lethal, as well as academic research. This has been the case since the 1980s when the research program began.

This is not hidden information, and it's not particularly hard to find. A simple google search on the IWC and the ICR or JARPA or SOWER or any of the other acronyms found in the news on the topic will provide it.

In my experience, though, people just don't bother looking for it. They see that the media has put scientific research in quotations and naturally assume it's something shady. They take the allegations of groups like Greenpeace and the Sea Shepherd at face value, and even send them a check - without ever bothering to take a look at the rebuttal, let alone the facts making up the rest of the picture.

In other words, people believe what they want to believe.

Ahh more emotion dribble .....
And more ignoring of the facts. I have produced the figures to PROVE that at the current rate of whale harvesting WILL NOT lead to the extinction of whales and that you could DOUBLE the rate and it still would not be a threat but still the same claims that it will lead to extinction. How about you guys start producing figures that PROVE your claims and from a reputable source, not some PETA/Greenpeace/Sea Shepherd affliated rubbish
Oh thats right you CANT.

Southern Ocean Whale and Ecosystem Research Program and IWC figures, that are agreed upon by the member states, all PROVE that whale numbers are RISING.

It's clear that this isn't about protection against extinction (none of these whale are in immediate danger), this is about extremists trying to block the killing of any whale. The video that surfaced earlier today shows without a doubt the See Shepherd ship rammed the Japanese ship on purpose despite claims to the contrary.

I would like to suggest something that hasn't been mentioned yet, as
having to do with whales being mammals, with intelligence, feelings, awareness, and what not... and whether they are sentient...

I believe they are! That's not just me, but lots of other ATS members.

Not sure how to describe this, or put it into words, but I'll try...

Some things in nature just aren't known... We won't find everything in a book, or sourced to a site, or dictated to us by 'experts', or those with vast experience, even...

Maybe I'm subscribing to certain Native American beliefs, about every living thing posessing a soul, a connection to the earth, and the spirit world. An instinct, or simple wisdom beyond human's comprehension, that we as humans either ignore, disbelieve, or are too resistant to the possibility to even consider this side of life, and all it's mysteries.

No, whales can't make tools, or cook an omelette, but they sure as hell don't make war on eachother, or screw eachother over for a percentage, or contribute to their own destruction, the way us humans do, knowing we are doing it, and continuing to do so, anyway!

Which, unfortunately makes the human race somewhat insane, where as whales, and so many other creatures seem to maintain a rather peaceful, balanced, harmonious existence, without all the drama!

. . .wow. . . i've surprised myself a little. . . call me a hippy, you'd be accurate; Shaman is what I'd rather aspire to, though. . .

Carry On!

Originally posted by FRIGHTENER
No, whales can't make tools, or cook an omelette, but they sure as hell don't make war on eachother, or screw eachother over for a percentage, or contribute to their own destruction, the way us humans do, knowing we are doing it, and continuing to do so, anyway!

Which, unfortunately makes the human race somewhat insane, where as whales, and so many other creatures seem to maintain a rather peaceful, balanced, harmonious existence, without all the drama!

If whales were sentient they'd probably be warring on each other and doing other deceitful things. They aren't sentient so they just live the normal survival life that all other animals do.

These guys are great! I have watched their show on the animal planet, and I can't wait to see this in the next season. I don't think it should be allowed to hunt whales unless you live in the Arctic. So if your an Inuit tribe and live near the north poll (and need a whale kill a year just to survive), have at it. But I don't believe anyone else has the right. The problem is that it is not legal to hunt whales, but no one will enforce these laws. I' glad to see the Sea Sheppard stepped up its game.

reply to post by Kalrana


Numbers rising from what... ?

That's right , from the previously severely low numbers where the very mentality of the people you are saying have "rights" almost brought them to extinction , and without most civilized countries actually forming a ban and sticking to it , they would be extinct.

Can you connect the dots on that one Kalrana , did it go over your head , you want me to be even more simplistic because I can if you need it spelled out in Australian ?

Note: I come from New Zealand were whaling meant a lot of money for us also , our country heavily relied on that resource for years , but we are not completely stupid so stopped .

reply to post by thedeadtruth

As stated :And more ignoring of the facts. I have produced the figures to PROVE that at the CURRENT RATE of whale harvesting WILL NOT lead to the extinction of whales and that you could DOUBLE the rate and it still would not be a threat but still the same claims that it will lead to extinction.

Stop living in the past. People Do LEARN from past mistakes and it was the WHALING NATIONS that started the IWC. Back then most people would not of even cared if every single whale was wipeout. THEY DIDNT KNOW ANY DIFFERENT. But the whalers saw what was going on and started IWC
If you had done any research you would know that. But i suppose its easier to believe what you see on tv and told by the media than actual search for and find the facts youself.

Now is that simple enough for you? Doubt it.

reply to post by Kalrana


Surely you are having a laugh right ?


So you claim that if we double the numbers being "hunted" ( not harvested ) these are WILD animals remember , we would not force an extinction . The numbers would hold . But.......

To date only a few boats are doing the damage we are talking about and the kill numbers are kept low due to harassment . Do you want to start telling certain countries it is ok to have a hunting quota but not others , because surely the numbers you have in front of you can not support ALL countries that had traditional whaling in the past to now have a quota .

Have you any idea how hard that would be to police if all countries got told they could take only 1 or 2 ? Do you even know how many nations would apply ?

Come on tell me oh wise one , how good is your arithmetic and comprehension skills now , you have the FACTS in front of you of all IWC nations so this answer should be a dandy , or did you miss the day at school they taught you 1+1+1 ?

I will honestly be waiting for your brilliant ideas on how to run a fair global quota system , because surely you were not going to suggest Japan to double its take while supporting a ban from all other countries . Because that would be naive .And you are not naïve but a SMART , STRONG , HUNTER with lots of answers !!!!

So I wait........



[edit on 7-2-2009 by thedeadtruth]

[edit on 7-2-2009 by thedeadtruth]

Well seeing as its quite obvious that you dont know how to research anything so it seems i need to do some more work
Well for starters ANY NATION CAN AT ANY TIME COMMENCE THE COMMERCIAL HARVEST OR NOT.
Its part of the IWC charter. But you would have known that if you did some research.
Currently there are 2 nations that carry out harvesting Japan and Iceland
Since the current zero limit was introduced in 1986 ONLY FOUR nations have taken whales. The above 2 plus Norway and the Republic of Korea. There are also 7 groups of indigenous people entitled to harvest whales. Look them yourself if your interested
YOU are the only one that jumped to the conclusion that all nations will want to start harvesting. Can prove that claim?

"To date only a few boats are doing the damage we are talking about and the kill numbers are kept low due to harassment" Can prove that the Japanese are looking at more ships?

"Do you want to start telling certain countries it is ok to have a hunting quota but not others , because surely the numbers you have in front of you can not support ALL countries that had traditional whaling in the past to now have a quota ." Again its you that are assuming that all traditional whaling nations would take up harvesting. Can prove that claim?

From wikipedia on whaling:
International cooperation on whaling regulation began in 1931 and culminated in the signing of the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling (ICRW) in 1946, whose aim is to "provide for the proper conservation of whale stocks and thus make possible the orderly development of the whaling industry".The IWC was set up under the terms of the ICRW for the purpose of making decisions on quota levels and other relevant matters based on the findings of its Scientific Committee. Countries which are not members of IWC are not bound by its regulations and conduct their own management programs.

Now there are only 42 nations signed upto IWC out of between 168 and 254 nations, depending on who is doing the counting. 195 seems to be the most common number. Far from the majority someone claimed earlier...

Ever heard of the psychological term Projection? Its the unconsciously projecting one's own unacceptable feelings onto other people, so that one doesn't have to own them. In other words you assume to know what other people would do based on your own subconscious unacceptable feelings. Its a very common defense mechanism
An example of this when you constantly keep claiming the Japanese will wipe out all whales, it usually means thats what you would do if you had the chance.

And grow up and cut out the condescending attitude. Im putting the facts and you come back and act like a little kid. A typical AL/PETA lover tactics.
I dont think you have produced a single fact or decent argument up yet.
You need to put as much effort into coming up with a decent argument as you do thinking up your little snide remarks and trying to be a smarta**e


[edit on 7/2/09 by Kalrana]