Why would anyone say ‘religion’ is here…to ‘control’ people?

Originally posted by OldThinker


1) Do you think faith/religion is here to control the masses?
2) Why?
3) Your evidence?
4) Did you once believe?
5) Did you change?
6) Why are you an atheist?
7) Why are you an agnostic?
8) Why you are a christian?
9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?

1. I think that faith and religion are just stages of humankind that every culture must progress through.

2. They could be used as a means of control but look at other things such as politics, material goods, etc. They can also be used to control people.

3. If you look at Western civilization we have moved from agricultural/traditional culture to modernized/industrialized/scintific culture to postmodernized culture. Other countries are shoing the same progression. Some examples of that would be Japan, India, etc.

4. I once was a pretty devout Catholic but I have since moved beyond. Today, I don't believe in what is called the pre-modern/omnipotent. I fcus more on spirituality and I do follow teachings of all religions including teachings from Jesus, Buddha, etc. They have excellent teachings on how to live a good life. I search for vitality, to live with a capitol "L"

5. I have explained in number 4.

6. You could consider me an atheist but not a hard core one.

7. I am open to the possibility of some kind of all unifying/evolutionary force in our universe, if you want to call that "God."

8. No not anymore but the spiritual teachings of Jesus are valuable.

9. God should be how ever he/she/it wants to be.

Peace and love everyone,
Allison

[edit on 4-2-2009 by Dances With Angels]

Originally posted by asmeone2
1) Do you think faith/religion is here to control the masses?

Faith is a personal thing, so no.

But religion... as in beleifs rigidly organized into a dogmatic system... I don't have to beleive that it is here to control people, that speaks for itself.


2) Why?

History, and current events, speak for themselves.

3) Your evidence?

Any number of things. Look at current events for starters. Take the Fallwell-esqu idea of saying "X sin caused X event." Take GWB selling his wars, in part, as a crusade. Today religion is used to justify the prevention of homosexual marraige.

As little as five decades ago, the Bible was used to justify racial separation. White men were beleived to be biblically and genetically inferior. Goodle "White Man's Burden."

Before that you had the idea of Manifest Destiny in America, and equivilants that I don' tkno w the name for in other Colonial countries. That is, God has given the colonialists the right to expand througouht the land, native residents be damned.

Before that you have numerous examples of the Chuch using control. How about the idea that Kings had a divine right to rule, regardless of how cruel they could be? Or that science was heretical? Or that only the priestly class could learn to read and write Latin to actually understand the Bible? And sorry to bring up an old cliche here, but what about the religious-based justification for the Crusades?


4) Did you once believe?
Yes
5) Did you change?
Yes
6) Why are you an atheist?
I am not.
7) Why are you an agnostic?
I beleive that "God" is too big to be defined by any of man's contrivances. I also beleive that subscribing to one religion limits my ability to actually understand him.
8) Why you are a christian?
I am not.
9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?
I do not beleive that God actually has a will and interferes with man's daily life. It's difficult to explain but I think of it more as a collective spirit(sorry, another cliche) that is everything ant nothing at ones.

You can call me a copycat if you want, but our beliefs are almost identical as are our views on those things covered by the survey. 7 and 9 I could not put better myself

1) Do you think faith/religion is here to control the masses?

Faith is personal, so no. Religion is organized as an absolute authority, so yes.

2) Why?

see above

3) Your evidence?

none for anyone else, just personal experience

4) Did you once believe?

in what?! If you're asking about faith, yes at one time I had to believe

5) Did you change?

yes, I've witnessed too much synchronicity from applying spiritual practices to know otherwise.

6) Why are you an atheist?

Who told you I was?! They lied. I'm not.

7) Why are you an agnostic?

My mind is exploding. First you say I'm an atheist, now you insist I'm an agnostic! Nope, not this either.

8) Why you are a christian?

I do my best to follow Christs words, because he seemed like a delightful chap, that had a great deal of insight and wisdom which can be applied not only in his time, but for today and the future, as well.


9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?

The whole of god can't be comprehended by our limited mindsets, but as far (in space-time) as is known, that is (part of) god. As far as can be experienced by any and all living entities, that is god's beingness. God is infinity....

What should good act like?! I don't comprehend this statement. God is. Just look around.

[edit on 4-2-2009 by unityemissions]

GREAT THREAD- thanks

1) Do you think faith/religion is here to control the masses?
2) Why?
3) Your evidence?
4) Did you once believe?
5) Did you change?
6) Why are you an atheist?
7) Why are you an agnostic?
8) Why you are a christian?
9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?

1) + 2) YES and NO -

I think religion was once a way to describe the world for people who had
little understanding of process behind natural process. I also think religion was a great way to instill RULES and MORALS for all to learn from. + a common binding agent - IMO the best and worst part of religion - creates community and intolerance.

THEN

Representatives of various religions realized that if you tacked the ultimate reward or punishment on to the whole concept, you could get people to police their own thoughts and behaviors, for fear of the PUNISHMENT or missing out on the REWARD. Further more, the religion could be USED to accomplish whatever agendas the LEADERS set forth - by using the COMMUNITY as an implement.

"You can't see god, but he's there - he's nicer than your mom and angrier than a hornet."

The HOVERING guilt and mandatory FAITH are the two major factors in RELIGIOUS CONTROL.

You can not prove GODS existence as a human using any of the five senses - But to even think the thought is a break in faith -GUILT-

SO guilt is there to insure FAITH and Faith ensures GUILT,

because we are only human - it is in our nature to "mess up" .

3) Evidence is everywhere -

MEN blow them selves up in the name of god?

People blow up confused young girls and doctors in the name of god?

People spend more energy trying to save ZYGOTES then little ones with names...


my favorite - people will drive in cars - fly in planes - take medicine - turn on lights
all brought to us VIA

MANKIND and SCIENCE

Yet when the origins of everything are slowly being explained by COUNTLESS hours of work ( done by gods creation non the less ) -

all of a sudden science and some of MANKIND'S great work (science) is invalid???

PLEEEEAAASEE!

"You" will fly in a airplane miles above the EARTH in a creation of man and science - yet
when the same methods are applied to unearthing our GENESIS you abandon it because SCIENCE is not sound???...

IMO -its because the SCIENCE conflicts with a 2000 story ???

6000 year old earth?

You have to be ZOMBIE style under control - or MR to not see the phallus-c in ADAM and EVE and the like.

4) I once believed in SWEET BABY JESUS - although I have nothing against him - I do not buy into the whole burrito one bit - We are physically to small and to large to effect or truly observe many things - let alone god.

5)Like it or not I- you change everyday -

6)N/A

7)Because I believe in a higher power that is not concerned about human actions per say. I think we are a part of something and something is a part of us all.

8)NOPE

9) I think we are to small to see all of "god" - if an atom on your head had eyes could it see the EARTH as a whole? God is all - good - bad- YIN and YANG

IMO


[edit on 5-2-2009 by The Bald Champion]

reply to post by toochaos4u



Better post!!!! Thanks...

But...

You provided some external links/info...so now you have 6 'data points'....six...do you realize that a statistician/mathematician would laugh you out the room, if you tried to proof a point with six or so data pts...

It called statistical significance - In normal English, "significant" means important, while in Statistics "significant" means probably true (not due to chance). A research finding may be true without being important. When statisticians say a result is "highly significant" they mean it is very probably true. They do not (necessarily) mean it is highly important.

= = = I could provide you with a list a several hundred chrisitan charities, with several hundred examples of 'goodness'...


All OT is saying, is give life/experience a bit more time, get some more data, so to speak, befre you speak so confidently...

God bless!



[edit on 5-2-2009 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by Dances With Angels
8. No not anymore but the spiritual teachings of Jesus are valuable.

Yes, I agree...

John 13:34, 35 are my fav's...yours?

OT

reply to post by unityemissions



Thanks for the post...cute!

OT

WE used to call it being a "smart-elic" but I'm showing my age

Originally posted by The Bald Champion
Representatives of various religions realized that if you tacked the ultimate reward or punishment on to the whole concept, you could get people to police their own thoughts and behaviors, for fear of the PUNISHMENT or missing out on the REWARD. Further more, the religion could be USED to accomplish whatever agendas the LEADERS set forth - by using the COMMUNITY as an implement.

interesting terms you use?

Ever heard of Lawrence Kolberg?

OT

Originally posted by OldThinker
1) Do you think faith/religion is here to control the masses?
2) Why?
3) Your evidence?

I would say Yes and No to this...I think for the most part, religion today is generally good intentioned. However, centuries ago, I think it was a device used to control. "Do what we say, or pay the ultimate price" The fact that there is no remedial value to hell is what makes it a tool for control. You don't learn your lesson, then get to go to heaven...you burn in hell forever. People were a bit more spiritual/superstitious back then, and not willing to take the chance of burning in hell forever. However, nowadays, people seem less inclined to believe that's actually going to happen if they steal something, or kill someone, etc...Not saying all religious people are criminals, but I would guess that a large percentage of the people out there who ARE criminals, are also religious in some way.

4) Did you once believe?

Yes.

5) Did you change?

Yes I did.

7) Why are you an agnostic?

There are just too many contradictions in religion. I could go on for hours here, but I'll just mention one example (also, I mentioned one above...no remedial value in hell): Supposedly God gave man free will, however, God also knows everything, past, present, and future. If this is the case, man can NOT have free will, because God already knows what we will do. We've heard "God has a plan"...which means we are all on a pre-determined path to make God's plan a reality.

However, I am agnostic because I don't rule out the idea that there could be a "God"...though I don't believe that God is a perfect, all knowing being. I believe the universe had to be created somehow...I can't believe it just magically appeared out of thin air. My theory is that there was once a "programmer" of sorts. I liken this to the video game "The Sims" (cheesey, I know, but it's the best way I can think to describe my theory). Basically, in the sims, there is a person who goes about his life not knowing that he is in fact just a game. At one point in time, someone created this game...but that person has no impact on how this sim goes about his life. He basically just made the game, and once installed and started on your computer, this life was set in motion. This is a very abbreviated version of my theory, but the bottom line is that I believe some being created our universe, and simply set it in motion. He/she/it has no influence beyond that...this is why I am agnostic.

9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?

I don't know, and honestly don't care. It's irrelivant based on my theory. The way I see it, God - as it were- has no influence on my life, so however God wants to look/act/be like is fine by me.

1) Do you think faith/religion is here to control the masses?

yes - where there is a law, regulations and rules mankind is operating : nowadays there is a "war" going on for ultimate religious power including wordwide social, economical and political influence aiming for ultimate control over mankind

2) Why?
because rules and regulations stop the people from having to think as there is someone else or some institution thinking for them - this stops the people from thinking all the way through a thinking process that will cause them to question a whole lot of other things besides - inside them and outside them - people will only think along certain lines of established thinking because it is collectivily reassuring and they feel they belong to the group : standing on one's one is scary

3) Your evidence?

we ara all "contaminated" by collective thinking and need to learn to tkink for ourselves in regard to what we FEEL that we ARE

4) Did you once believe?

I still do believe

5) Did you change?

I stopped going to the church

6) are you an atheist?

I am not

7) are you an agnostic?

I am not

8) you are a christian?

yes

9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?

Gog shouldn't have to look like anything because he is inherent to all and everything existing on and beyond the earth and universe - and included into everything you could possibly imagine down to the tiniest cell - he is and as such we are included in him but his look on us makes us look at him and then we recognise we are one same as is one same all that lives - God is all that mankind could possibly conceive on the highest most beautifull and noblest spiritual level and so much more that we possibly could not conceive because our brain is not configurated to be able to work through and integrate such information - as such there are no words to describe God for he is as we are

Originally posted by Jaruseleh
...
There are just too many contradictions in religion. I could go on for hours here, but I'll just mention one example (also, I mentioned one above...no remedial value in hell): Supposedly God gave man free will, however, God also knows everything, past, present, and future. If this is the case, man can NOT have free will, because God already knows what we will do. We've heard "God has a plan"...which means we are all on a pre-determined path to make God's plan a reality."


Nice lengthy response..

hears one to think about...

vantage pt and probability...

I watched Lebron James last night...as a finite observe , I predicted the future, before he got the ball I predicted the future and said he would shoot the ball and he did...wow. it was simple probabiliy.

There is no time, padt present or future from God's vantage pt..so from his perspective he already knew, just as Lebron shot the ball freely, even though I knew he would..

OT



[edit on 5-2-2009 by OldThinker]

so, are you saying that God knowing the future is just probability? If that's the case, God doesn't know the future then...it's just a guess. You guessed that Labron would shoot, but he could have passed the ball. Knowing the future means you know without a shadow of a doubt that it's going to happen.

Here's one for you to think about:

How do you know that time has no meaning to God? Has he told you this? This is an assumption...If God doesn't know the future, then he is not all knowing, and therefor isn't God by definition. If God DOES know the future, then we do not have free will.

1) Do you think faith/religion is here to control the masses?
2) Why?
3) Your evidence?
4) Did you once believe?
5) Did you change?
6) Why are you an atheist?
7) Why are you an agnostic?
8) Why you are a christian?
9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?

1) Clearly. Yes.

2) That's quite a question. You're asking for a brief, maybe not so brief, outline covering the entire history of mankind over the last 2000 years.

Power, money, control of the senate would be good starting points.

Then, throw in something a little more creepy - such as the church, actually and purposefully, suppressing a person's natural ability to reach a type of ecstatic enlightment - thus making said church null and void.

3) Every time I meet a christian, friend. Every time I meet a christian.

4) No.

5) No. Lucky me.

6) I am not.

7) I am not.

8) I am not.

** No why are you a Jedi query? **

9) Look like? Act like? Be like? My god! Have you heard nothing Master Yoda has said?

May The Force Be With You.

reply to post by Jaruseleh


Jaruseleh, I'm at work, so no time to answer now...I'm actually driving to Tulsa tonite and will get to you later, ok?

OT

reply to post by OldThinker


My bag, my bag...

Just in a funky mood lastnite. No harm intented...

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by Jaruseleh

 

Jaruseleh, I'm at work, so no time to answer now...I'm actually driving to Tulsa tonite and will get to you later, ok?

OT

No hurry. Take your time.

btw, I live in Norman. Small world....

[edit on 5-2-2009 by Jaruseleh]

Originally posted by Jaruseleh
There are just too many contradictions in religion. I could go on for hours here, but I'll just mention one example (also, I mentioned one above...no remedial value in hell): Supposedly God gave man free will, however, God also knows everything, past, present, and future. If this is the case, man can NOT have free will, because God already knows what we will do. We've heard "God has a plan"...which means we are all on a pre-determined path to make God's plan a reality.

This seeming contradiction has puzzled me also, but I think I have found a loop hole which will allow for free will and an omnipotent god. Quantum mechanics has shown the high probability of alternate universes or realities existing where there are differences sometimes small, sometimes extreme, but more importantly given they are infinite in number every circumstance exist. So GOD has knowledge of every instance in all of these infinite timelines/realities/universes, but it is up to the individual conscious in each of these to decide(with his/her FREE WILL) which path out of this infinite number to take. Atleast that's my current hypothetical solution to this paradigm. Take it or leave it.

Originally posted by OldThinker

1) Do you think faith/religion is here to control the masses?
2) Why?
3) Your evidence?
4) Did you once believe?
5) Did you change?
6) Why are you an atheist?
7) Why are you an agnostic?
8) Why you are a christian?
9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?

[edit on 4-2-2009 by OldThinker]

I started to read some responses first, but decided to give an unbiased opinion first. This will likely not be a 1, 2, 3 answer, but it will convey my opinion on all 9 points.

As a child, I was given the understanding of God and religion by a variety of pastors, priests, deacons, etc. I grew up fearing mistakes based on the judgments that would be handed down to me in this life and the next. We were told stories of both atrocity and grace from a God that is both a jealous and iron fisted master, as well as a caring and loving father. I learned about a creator that gave and took life and learned that either could happen to me depending on how I acted day to day.
Did I feel controlled? Of course I did. He watches and records my every action, thought and feeling and in the end, those are what I am to be graded by. I was given 10 simple rules to live by as a follower, then told that each infraction would be held against my eternal soul. I didnt feel controlled, I felt like a puppy that just peed on the carpet with every step I took in life.

Then I grew older and started to learn about history. I learned about how people have used religion to destroy nations, peoples, and other religions. Throughout history there are recordings of hatred and violence between the religions. Imagine my surprise to learn that the most prominent of the worlds religions are interconnected from a core religion. I learned that the religions not sharing that commonality are mostly just rebellions against central religion.
Then it happened. Three little words. They had been staring me in the face my entire life, but they never meant anything to me because I was too afraid to see them. "King James Version". The word "Version" became burned into my mind and its very existence would give me no peace as long as it was the the very symbol of what I had been taught.
The deeper the rabbit hole went, I could feel the fear subside. I didnt have to fear the words of man in a tome explained by man in a building built by man.
I made a choice. I chose, I choose, to live my life by my own moral compass. Should it steer me off course, then I pay my own consequences of my own actions in my own time and by my own admission. I fear no man's words, no unseen judgment, no mystical trial, no eternal retribution.
I have chosen, for myself alone, to live by a faith of self and a faith in mankind. I hold no grievance against anyone that makes their choice of servitude, as long as they make the choice to hold no grievance against my rebellion. In that right, I will attest that there is something greater in this existence than I am, be it alien, cosmic or supreme. I give the belief in specifics to those that need that kind of reassurance and structure in their life. I do not answer to one, but many things greater than myself. I alone cannot make grass grow, only help the earth produce that bounty. I alone cannot hold back or encourage the wind to blow, but I can open my home to it and give it a path by which to travel. I alone cannot change the heart of a man, but I can lend an ear or spoken word to encourage a life less threatening. I alone cannot form a planet or star, but I can marvel in their beauty and treat each as a great entity unto itself.

There is something greater than everyone. Call on your God in thanks and beg of your God for support. I look to myself.

1a) Do you think faith is here to control the masses?

No

1b) Do you think religion is here to control the masses?

Yes

2) Why?

Religions often dictate rules to live by and judge those who do not live by them, when it is not their place to do so. Furthermore Religions use "carrot and stick" techniques such as the concept of an afterlife in either heaven or hell in order to complete the masses compliant, and as their power grow are not against using force in order to spread their point of view, i.e the crusades, islamic fundamentalists.

Also the mainstream religions are not clear on all aspects of the religious teachings to the lay persons, the average followers of a religion are pretty much just told what to do and expected to do it, this is often for their own good as not everyone has the drive to delve deeper into the mysteries, however it is still an obvious form of manipulative control, whether the intentions are for good or ill.

3) Your evidence?

The history of our race.

The Jewish religion does not pretend to be anything other than a lot of strict rules to live your life by based around spiritual concepts, neither does Islam, and an honest Christian will admit their hands are tied by the will of the Church.

4) Did you once believe?

I do believe.

5) Did you change?

I no longer follow the will on mainstream religions, instead I prefer to observe the knowledge given to them from a neutral standpoint and have my own connection with the creator.

6) Why are you an atheist?

I am not.

7) Why are you an agnostic?

I am not however I believe many are both agnostic and atheist in this day and age because the idea of an old man sitting on a throne in the clouds is inherently wrong and is the idea of "god" that so many people reject without attempting to come to a greater understanding.

8) Why you are a christian?

I am not the mission for the messiah was not completed, at this time it is still not completed hence even the Christian's await the second coming. Be joyous for what Yeshua taught you, but do not place him before you and your lord.

9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?

By definition the Creator is outside of our creation, you cannot begin to accurately express what god truly is, because we are only able to contain confined glimpses of what that ultimate source may have been / desires.

Originally posted by Buddy420

Originally posted by Jaruseleh
There are just too many contradictions in religion. I could go on for hours here, but I'll just mention one example (also, I mentioned one above...no remedial value in hell): Supposedly God gave man free will, however, God also knows everything, past, present, and future. If this is the case, man can NOT have free will, because God already knows what we will do. We've heard "God has a plan"...which means we are all on a pre-determined path to make God's plan a reality.

This seeming contradiction has puzzled me also, but I think I have found a loop hole which will allow for free will and an omnipotent god. Quantum mechanics has shown the high probability of alternate universes or realities existing where there are differences sometimes small, sometimes extreme, but more importantly given they are infinite in number every circumstance exist. So GOD has knowledge of every instance in all of these infinite timelines/realities/universes, but it is up to the individual conscious in each of these to decide(with his/her FREE WILL) which path out of this infinite number to take. Atleast that's my current hypothetical solution to this paradigm. Take it or leave it.

That's interesting to think about...by this theory, EVERYTHING happens, meaning there is essentially an infinite number of alternate universes...the problem with this, though, is that it nullifies "god's plan". Just an assumption here, but I doubt god's plan would be for every possible outcome to happen. Seems his plan would be a bit more linear..."this is how I want it to happen", not, "I want EVERYTHING to happen". That doesn't seem like much of a plan. lol

Joe: I'm going on vacation next week
Bob: Oh yeah? Where to?
Joe: I'm going to Australia
Bob: That sounds fun, what do you plan to do while you're there?
Joe: Everything.

The multiverse thing has always intrigued me, but it seems that it would throw more monkey wrenches into the existence of God than a single universe.