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Why would anyone say ‘religion’ is here…to ‘control’ people?

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posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 11:00 AM
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reply to post by Jaruseleh
 


Consider then that the point of creation could well be simply for the Divine to experience that which is not itself, whilst at the same time learning more about itself.

IF there are infinite variations of what is happening this would still work for me in regards the creator creating creation simply for the experience.

I wonder however why it is that we are plugged into this particular space / time line, and why we are not able to shift consciousness so that we ourselves are able to observe one of the different space / time lines within the context of ourselves within that reality.

Its a difficult discussion to have when we aren't really sure how many dimensions there actually are or how they all interact with each other.




posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 11:07 AM
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Most religions consider God to be perfect...infallible. If God truly is perfect, he doesn't need to do anything for experience. If he does, then he is not perfect by definition.

What you say makes sense, but by your logic, God can not be perfect.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 11:12 AM
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The North American Christian game is simply a legal way to launder money......its better then any bank and many banks know where rich wealthy churches get the cash.

They shake down scared old people, they award building contracts to good Christian insiders (drug dealers), they deposit all of that cash toward......sorry..all that collection cash is never deposited.

Now...to be faie these churches are full of great people who are really believing the whole yarn. And these people so far as I have seen are just your every day people wanting some stress relief and some social interaction.

I do believe the bible....churches on the other hand do not get my respect...ever again. lol



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 11:20 AM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


Any ATS regular or lurker can see OT is online to represent his savior….no bait and switch here. It’s pretty darn clear, agree?

Proof…my threads here… www.abovetopsecret.com...

I have a few questions, if you may…please no flaming, ‘civility and decorum’ expected, right?

1) Do you think faith/religion is here to control the masses?

Faith is not religion. Faith is inherent to our society, it's like hope, or despair.
Organized religion WAS here to control the masses. It has enormous power still today, but in the Western world it's declining fast. Religions were mantained by an elite who is today shifting paradigms, trading religion with consumism and dumbing down individuals.
It's far more effective on current times.

2) Why?

Because greedy bastards always existed, and power corrupts. They need this structure of manipulation to shape the world as their will, and keep it that way. Being afraid of God and/or hoping he'll take you out of your miserable life was good enough for people in the past to get through life, as you can see, with their natural beliefs (whichever they may had been) tampered with this socially imposed ones.

3) Your evidence?

Far to numerous to compell it on this post. It doesn't even have to be far fetched, there are many common examples on how Organized Religion has manipulated society. Just to name a few:
A) Pope crowning Kings on the Middle Ages.
B) Extremists/fanatics indoctrinated to kill.
C) Feel sinful, then confess (publicly or privately) and beg for mercy.
D) You have to get baptized because the original sin is within you, ever since your conception, even if you haven't done nothing yet. You are predetermined a sinner, an inferior beign.
E) When in despair, just ask God for help. He will do what's best for you. If your life sucks, then it's just you're not faithful enough. Just keep trying!

Every one of this last items show how religious people are indoctrinated and conditioned on their lives, molded to fit someone's agenda.

4) Did you once believe?

Yes. I still do.
5) Did you change?

Yes, I don't believe in what I used to.

6) Why are you an atheist?

I am not.

7) Why are you an agnostic?

Because of 1) What I commented before and 2) I find it so hard to believe the whole Bible-Jesus story as EXACTLY depicted by religious people.

8) Why you are a christian?

Guess I'm not. Though I respect Jesus a lot, if he really existed, which I don't know, and nobody does except very, very well connected individuals.

9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?

Nothing in particular. God to me is a concept so grand that we can't even begin to grasp it. I do know it has no relation whatsoever with mankind other than its creation (maybe), and probably isn't something "sentient", maybe a cosmic/mechanical "force" for not having a better term.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 11:50 AM
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reply to post by Jaruseleh
 


For me it is important to distinguish between faith / belief in a divine and the words used by the religions.

I firmly believe the religions are currently for the most part used for various forms of control, though for a scope of reasons, thats another discussion.

All i can say is dont try applying human labels to something outside of our own immediate world, we have barely begun to scratch the surface of true understanding, to try and label something as "perfect" or "good" or even "evil" "uncaring" when it is something that encompasses and exceeds those ideas is very dangerous.

Keep looking and sharing what you find in an open and honest way and hopefully one day we will as a people come to a better undertstanding.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
1) Do you think faith/religion is here to control the masses?
2) Why?
3) Your evidence?
4) Did you once believe?
5) Did you change?
6) Why are you an atheist?
7) Why are you an agnostic?
8) Why you are a christian?
9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?


1. YES
2. Money
3. Tithe
4. Never
5. Never
6. Was born as one (like everyone else)
7. N/A
8. N/A
9. N/A

There you go



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 12:33 PM
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reply to post by gYvMessanger
 


Well, you are right in the sense that we can't put into words something we can't comprehend, but we do need to describe it in the best way possible. In other words, we have to go by our definition of things. If it is something outside our definition, then we can not hope to understand it...which begs the question: why put faith in something we really know nothing about?

It bothers me when people tell me that God exists outside of our realm of comprehension. If that is the case, how can one defend it? Seems the only way to do so is to "make things up" about it, and use that as your foundation for debate. I would love to believe in an all knowing, all loving God...but until I see absolute proof of it, it's all just stories and made up descriptions.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 12:34 PM
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Religion doesn't control people, people use religion as a tool to control. God is reached thru oneself, not thru the church.
We are all part of God, God is oneness. How can you put a face to it?



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 12:38 PM
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1) Do you think faith/religion is here to control the masses?
2) Why?
3) Your evidence?
4) Did you once believe?
5) Did you change?
6) Why are you an atheist?
7) Why are you an agnostic?
8) Why you are a christian?
9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?



Is faith here to control the masses? No, I see faith as an internal mechanism of hope/belief used by an individual to control, or try to control them selves. Such as faith shown through good works, meditation, belief in a savior etc.

Religion at its best tries to present a tool kit of codes of conduct, and systematic stories and lessons that a person of faith can use to achieve the goals of the individual believer, and at worst try to control the believers actions to worldly gain for the religous leader/leaders aims.

Why do I believe these things? Because I have been a human being who is seeking the truth of these questions all my life.

My evidence would have to be internal for faith, and external for religous institutions, i.e there stated doctrines.

I was born a Congregationalist, turned into a hooting and hollering pentecostal in my teens, looked into JW's, Mormons, Muslims, TM and Hindi faiths. I finally settled upon what I believe to be the true faith RC'ism
and am happy there.

I have never felt the need to prove my beliefs to any other person, I have found that proving them to myself was a sufficently difficult and worthy endeavor all in itself.

God should be what ever God is. We should be a reflection of that. Heck I think we are a reflection of that. The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.

Peace



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 12:38 PM
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There was a time when religion was in place to control the masses. The height of it was of course the dark ages when the church controlled everything. It kept people subordinate to their rulers (kings by Divine Right, etc.). And it was set up with an emphasis on do this that or the other and you will suffer in Hell for eternity. Clearly a means of controlling the masses.

But the masses aren't really afraid of the "Devil" and "Hell" anymore, so they're controlled through TV, propaganda and debt, lol.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 12:40 PM
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reply to post by Jaruseleh
 


Yes I agree it creates more questions than answers, but my view of GOD is somewhat different than most. (Please excuse the lame anology) GOD to me was the being who mixed the batter in which the cake(our reality) will be made from(he created all the rules by which the physics in the universe are governed) and turned the oven on(set it all in motion/big bang). Then he let it run it's course. I know this flies in the face of most peoples take on GOD, but this is my opinion. Take it or leave it.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by Buddy420
reply to post by Jaruseleh
 


Yes I agree it creates more questions than answers, but my view of GOD is somewhat different than most. (Please excuse the lame anology) GOD to me was the being who mixed the batter in which the cake(our reality) will be made from(he created all the rules by which the physics in the universe are governed) and turned the oven on(set it all in motion/big bang). Then he let it run it's course. I know this flies in the face of most peoples take on GOD, but this is my opinion. Take it or leave it.


Heh, this is almost identical to how I feel, though I use a different analogy. I don't believe "God" has any influence what-so-ever on our day to day life. I think "God" or some highly intelligent being created everything, and just let it roll...which, although I am thankful for, I see no reason to worship this being, as it is most likely not watching/listening anyway...and very possibly died a LONG time ago.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 01:42 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


Exactly how many points do you wish for me to provide? There are literally thousands upon thousands and it isn't just the Christian religions that do this all the majors do. But, as I think you know this is not the way it is supposed to be.

Yes, the religious majority do good works but, often it as the price of ensuring they are the main game in town so to speak. So while I do applaud them for doing the works sticking an ulterior motive behind them is the problem. I've given this example before:

When the local township was sponsoring a food drive for the homeless. Many of the religious sponsored themselves. Wanting to help out myself I contacted friends that attend the local church of Wicca as well as the company I worked for. They were very happy to join in.

Oh wow the local churches lost it when they found the church of Wicca was joining in with the good deeds and threatened to pull out even though there was no services or anything being offered by the Wiccans, they were just to be there helping out.

In the end the Wiccans decided to pull out themselves because joining in would derail most of the good deeds for that day while feeding much less. The mayor apologized saying that they should accept a helping hand regardless of where it came from.

The message of control here is that the churches were afraid having another belief system in the house which would shake off efforts to proselytize the audience. The other belief system didn't care if they did this or not and was seeking to feed the homeless not chase after converts while feeding them.


The words by your savior are very good but, I see scant few observing his exact words instead pushing for power, control, and manipulation. Often they show up resembling more the Pharisee instead of the savior. If the message is good you don't have to force people to it or scare them into it because being forced brings rebellion and being scared only lasts so long.

So if you walk into services in most of these churches down south the main message is to fear the savior instead of hearing whatever message of love he has to offer. One may get the little old lady screaming and crying afraid that hell will open beneath her feet before she gets to the front but, is that the message of "accepting the savior" that yourself or others wish to portray? That fear of hell wears off and would it not be better to have the enlightened story behind it first?

There are many examples yes, but what the broad scope has to do is pushing people to these beliefs whether they accept them or not. Anyway, religion does control people. The true spirituality inside however does not.


Anyway time for dinner OT.





[edit on 5/2/2009 by toochaos4u]

[edit on 5/2/2009 by toochaos4u]



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 02:05 PM
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Here's my two cents on the matter.

1)Do you think faith/religion is here to control the masses?

Not sure if you're talking about your specific faith/religion or the concept of faith and all religions. I'll rephrase the question so at least you understand the context of my response.

A)Can faith be used to control people?

Yes.

B)Were religions created to control the masses?

Yes, to a degree, many were. Although I wouldn't use the word "control" exclusively nor would I say that they "are here" to do that. Religions are created, and they can be used for, a variety of things.

2)Why?

As far as faith being used to control, I think that purely by definition someone who is willing to believe something for which there is no proof may be more susceptible to manipulation.

In my opinion, religions are created and used to do one or more of a variety of things.
Some of which include;
1) Attempt to explain our place in the universe
2) Keep people in line
3) Attempt to unify groups of people
4) Solidify a power base
5) To instill a sense of superiority

3)Your evidence?

Jim Jones, tithing, Mega-Churches, Rome, Papal infallibility, Nicaea, religious fanaticism, "God's will" mandates, creationism, the crusades, the inquisition, etc.

4)Did you once believe?

Not that I can remember. I may have when I was very young, and I don't mean to be flippant, but I think if I did I probably stopped around the time I realized that there was no Santa Claus. My Grandparents were very religious and I initially thought that the bible contained some nice stories, but ones that were made up by man.

5)Did you change?

I think I changed in the sense that I didn't know the extent of the non-sensical nature and absolute violence and depravity of the bible. When I did read it in its totality I was shocked and didn't really want to have anything to do with that at all. It basically started on page one with "the lesser light to rule the night". Okay, so I knew that was suppose to be the moon, but it's not a light it reflects light so they didn't get off to a good start and then it just went downhill from there.

6)Why are you an atheist?
7)Why are you an agnostic?

I'll answer both of these at once since I think many people have different definitions of those two words. I would describe myself as a spiritual person. I would say that I believe in a higher power, but would not define it as a God in the traditional christian sense of the word. The rejection of this is based on many factors a primary one being the concept of an all knowing all powerful God.

If God is all knowing then he knew, even before he created Eve, exactly what would happen. In essence, he created something defective, knowing full well the future implications. To me, this is contrary to a divine power

8)Why you are a christian?

I am not. And by the way, you might have left out a few other possibilities.

9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?

Let's start with what God should not look like/act like/be like.

Vengeful, mass murderer, proponent of sacrifice, proponent of ritual mutilation to
name a few. I think it's funny when people say God is beauty and love and then
leave out the part where he's sitting around waiting for the day to come down and
destroy a significant portion of the population and send them to eternal
damnation. Sounds like a great guy.

"God" probably doesn't "look like" anything. To anthropomorphize God I think is arrogant.

I also think it's funny that people say there has to be a creator because there had to be a beginning. Yet they can say God is infinite. So something actually can be infinite.
So why couldn't there be something else that was infinite? Why does it "have to be" your God?

"God", for lack of a better word, is probably just a force, like gravity, that we have yet to, and may never, comprehend.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject. Peace



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by 420prajna
reply to post by TheMythLives
 


How does Christianity let people make up their own minds? Christianity threatens people with eternal damnation and torture and pain forever if they dont believe exactly how they're told!


QFT!

When there is a god that tells us how to live our life the way we want it without harming others is the day I will believe in a god.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by FritosBBQTwist

Originally posted by 420prajna
reply to post by TheMythLives
 


How does Christianity let people make up their own minds? Christianity threatens people with eternal damnation and torture and pain forever if they dont believe exactly how they're told!


QFT!

When there is a god that tells us how to live our life the way we want it without harming others is the day I will believe in a god.


That would be Jesus. And that is why I am so dead set on separating Jesus and his teachings from the religion created in his name, and the church who has killed and such in his name.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 03:10 PM
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1) Do you think faith/religion is here to control the masses?
absolutely, take a look at the voter guides published by various religious groups! In CA the religionists are seeking to control the gay population, the pro life people want to control what my daughters do with their bodies and their futures.

2) Why?
POWER, the same reason that all entities attempt to exercise control. With the threat of everlasting hell they have succeeded with the sheep that are full of fear and lack of critical thinking ability.
3) Your evidence?
Sarah Palin, John Haggee, Rod Parsley, KKK, Jihadists

4) Did you once believe?
yes I did.
5) Did you change?
Not my love and devotion to the Creator/s but to a book and a dogma
6) Why are you an atheist?
NA
7) Why are you an agnostic?
NA
8) Why you are a christian?
Because I believe in the message of Jesus, but do not accept the nonsense of the Original sin and the need to be returned to a state called Salvation.
9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?
The total opposite of the OT god. loving, inclusive, forgiving, non judgmental, non threatening, secure with no need to force worship, available to all not only the "chosen" or those of a particular persuasion

Religion is not spirituality!!!!! The entire premise of the CC, Constantine Cannon or New Testament is to steer the believer from the personal experience or gnosis to the orthodox view of the church where the corporate worship and need for ritual is required! Which of course, helped the Roman Empire maintain control.

The religious zealot is a dangerous enemy, he sees you as fodder for his god. As times get harder and more people turn to their faith, the opportunity for persuasion becomes greater. When we are able to see that we all worship and believe in the same god, the Creator of this Universe and all others, then and only then will the religious wars and division be stopped. When we can learn to allow others to their faith, without feeling the need to press our practices and views on those who think and believe differently, maybe peace and prosperity will reign.

Maybe not.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 03:19 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker

1) Do you think faith/religion is here to control the masses?
2) Why?
3) Your evidence?
4) Did you once believe?
5) Did you change?
6) Why are you an atheist?
7) Why are you an agnostic?
8) Why you are a christian?
9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?

[edit on 4-2-2009 by OldThinker]


1.) Not faith. Faith, by definition, is a belief that is not based on proof, and it is very personal. Religion, yes. Absolutely.

2.) You cannot 'impose' faith on others. It's a personal belief. Religion? Yes you can, and it has been done throughout time, for power and submission. "Bad" Christians have been widely known to shove their religion so far down others' throats to instill fear and demand order and obedience. I say "Bad" Christians because the good ones do not do this. Good Christians remember the true message of love and peace that is supposed to be the foundation of their religion.

3.) I think it's been proven enough in this thread. Many have been slain "in the name of God." When Pagans saw their families getting slaughtered for their beliefs I'm fairly certain some didn't think twice about converting.

4.) Yes.

5.) Yes.

To 6, 7 and 8: No.

9.) God, The Higher Power, The Universal Mind, however you want to look at it, to me, is the ultimate, purest most perfect form of energy, that emanates warmth and love.

I was raised a Catholic, and into my later teens I realized that I'd been a sheep my entire life. Told what to believe, think and practice. All that changed fairly recently, at least 3 years ago, and now that I see things clearly I have abandoned that belief.

I still think there is a higher power, but I choose to see it as the universe. Ultimate oneness, energy, everything is controlled by it. We are -all- godlike, whether you realize it or not. Every major religion teaches that we are created in the likeness of the creator.

[edit on 5-2-2009 by BombasticChaos]



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 03:22 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


1) Do you think faith/religion is here to control the masses?

Yes. Religion is something that is external to yourself. I just posted a thread about this. Man-made religion is made to make YOU feel bad about yourself and to make YOU feel guilty about your existence.

Faith, on the other hand, is a entirely different matter. That is personal. Everybody has faith in something. The only difference is that it is not structured like religion (well, organized religion). I.E., "I have faith in something or higher power" is entirely different than "I have faith in Jehovah".

Man made religions is designed to make people feel weak and under control of something external, be it priest, the bible, etc.

2) Why?

History. Observation (take a look at other religions, not your own). Etc, etc.

3) Your evidence?

Look above.

4) Did you once believe?

Yes, many many years.

5) Did you change?

Yup. And very happy. You will be happy too.

6) Why are you an atheist?

N/A

7) Why are you an agnostic?

N/A

8) Why you are a christian?

I was born into a strict christian home.

9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?

Why 'SHOULD' we care? Perhaps a better question would be, "why shouldn't we care? Why shouldn't we all work together to make life better on earth?" Ah, you get the drift.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 03:27 PM
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1) Do you think faith/religion is here to control the masses?
-Yes, the most of them

2) Why?
-becuase, MOST give you tight rules to live by, and almost no personal freedom.

3) Your evidence?
-No, but can you proof a religion? like asking the proof of christianaty and giving the bible (proof religion with religion)

4) Did you once believe?
-I do, as a shaman.

5) Did you change?
-not really.

6) Why are you an atheist?
- Im not.

7) Why are you an agnostic?
- Im not.

8) Why you are a christian?
-Im not.

9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?
-A "God" has to give a fully free will, not one restricted to rules to live by.






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