Islam: An intolerant, inconsistent fallacy

Originally posted by popeye0314
New understanding.

I believe that Christ is the son of the creater of all things....God

Lucifer is a fallen angel, mad because God gave man a soul, and knocked angels into second place.

Lucifer who is satan has been given power and time here on earth to decieve as many as he can.

Lucifer is Allah.

Islam means submission to Allah

***From "The spiritual Background of Early Islam" by E.J. Brill, Leiden, 1972.
I quote the following.

" Islam means submission to (Allah), but originally it meant that strength which characterized a desert warrior who, even when faced with the impossible odds, would fight to the death for his tribe."

Very simple, Lucifer is the desert warrior, when even faced with fighting the army of God, will fight to the death to keep his peers (angels) from being second in Gods eyes.

This story is written in the bible and Lucifer loses.

I've read somewhere that Jesus was also a warrior. I find it funny that "Christians" only follow the new testament which was basically put together and pasted to the torah(the old testament)Also that they pray to Jesus and not God the one who created Jesus. It�s obvious that you and that guy you quoted don�t have a clue about Islam. Islam and Christianity originated form the Jewish faith. If you don�t want to believe that then you are just blind to that truth.

Muslims believe in all the prophets of God ( Moses, Jesus and Mohammed), Christians deny Mohammed and Moses( even though Moses is a part of �their� bible). And Jews think that they are the chosen people an are still waiting on their messiah. Muslims acknowledge those that came before them. Zealot Christians like your self seem to think that time started 2004 years ago. You should probably examine your faith a little more and see were it true origins lie. You will find that what is taught now is a far cry to what Jesus was taught. He told people to worship God not him. People don�t read their bible. They believe the lies and twisted interpretations that are given to them.

Here is what the bible says:

Luke 17: 20 -21
Now when he was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of GOD will gome, He answered them and said, "The Kingdom of GOD does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of GOD is within you"

Mathew 4:5-7
Then the devil took him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, sand said to Him, �If you are the Son of God, throw your self down For it is written:

�He shall give his angles charge over you� and, �In their hands they shall bear you up Lest you dash your foot against a stone.�

Jesus said to him, �It is written again, �You shall not tempt the Lord your God�

Mathew 4:10
Then Jesus said to him, �Away with you, Satan! For it is written, �You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.�

Mark 2:10
But that you may know that the Son of Man has the power on earth to forgive sin

Matthew 5:45
That you may be sons of your father in Heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and sends rain on the unjust.

Mathew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God
Mathew 23:9-10
Do not call anyone on earth your father; for one is your father, he who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for one is your teacher, the Christ.

Matthew 26:39
He went a little farther and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, �oh my Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will�

Matthew 10:40-41
He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward.

-Mark 10:18
So Jesus said to him, Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is God.

- John 8:28
Then Jesus said to them, when you lift up the son of man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My father taught Me, I speak these things.

John 5:37
And the father himself, who sent me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, no seen his form.

Matthew 7:21
not everyone who says to me, Lord Shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, lord, lord have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of him who sent me

John 7:16
Jesus answered them and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his who sent me

John 13:16
Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who was sent greater than he who sent him. If you know theses things, blesses are you if you do them

Matthew 13:57
so they were offended at him. But Jesus said to them, A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house
- John 14:28
You have heard me say to you, I am going away and coming back to you If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, I am going to the Father, For My Father is Greater than I

I want you to go back are read your bible!!!!!!!!!!!!! I did not take any of theses quote and tried to explain them or take them out of context. I will leave that up to you.


I hate arguing with ignorance because I always have to bring my self down to the zealots level just to make a point. I have also noticed that no one answered my fist question. Where in the Quran does it say that the earth is flat? I know for a long time the church thought the world was flat and that everything revolved around the earth. To think other wise was blasphemous and you could get killed. Humm� that sounds like intolerance to me.

Originally posted by Otts


Yes, some Muslims did cheer when 9-11 happened.

Salaamu'aliekum,

Why just Muslim's?
Alot of Latin American's cheer when 9-11 happened, namely Chileans, 9-11 is something chileans wont forget and im not talking about the twin towers but im talking about the way Salvador Allende was aken out of power.
Followed by that beutifull event, 5000 Chiliean's died by the hands of Rich Chilean swins who were funded by the Vatican and CIA..Nice aye??
I know laot of Aussie's here who praised the Attacks also and im sure the Serbs were having a feest.
Whats the Difference???
The Media Only showed Minorities in the Islamic world and repeated the images over and over again, so that it beats in you head "Muslims are BAD PEOPLE" and by the looks of it, it worked out quite nicely

Salaam

Guerilla

Originally posted by Guerilla

Originally posted by Otts


Yes, some Muslims did cheer when 9-11 happened.

Salaamu'aliekum,

Why just Muslim's?
Alot of Latin American's cheer when 9-11 happened, namely Chileans, 9-11 is something chileans wont forget and im not talking about the twin towers but im talking about the way Salvador Allende was aken out of power.
Followed by that beutifull event, 5000 Chiliean's died by the hands of Rich Chilean swins who were funded by the Vatican and CIA..Nice aye??
I know laot of Aussie's here who praised the Attacks also and im sure the Serbs were having a feest.
Whats the Difference???
The Media Only showed Minorities in the Islamic world and repeated the images over and over again, so that it beats in you head "Muslims are BAD PEOPLE" and by the looks of it, it worked out quite nicely

Salaam

Guerilla

Nice way to show how the american media brain washes the masses!!! Bush used 9/11 as an excuse to go to war in Iraq so he could get the gun that saddam was caught with. He shows it to people on occasion and it is loaded.

River, I'm interested in what you have to say. The 315 messengers you speak of, is there a list of these on the internet somewhere. I'm looking for it right now. Does this list include buddha, jesus, krishna,etc...I'm very intrigued by the notion. Does islam believe buddha and Zarathrustra were islamist?
Even if I do question the rationality of the qu'ran; I will not agree that islam is intolerant. I've had friends that were muslims and they were terrific people. Of course, I don't equate terroists with religion either; I equate them with specific people and groups.
I believe the qu'ran does offer more of a reality than christianity teaches in some areas. For instance islam doesn't support the idea of the trinity or the divinity of yeshua. I'm sure there are much other truths in islam. I look forward to studying it in depth.
I think Scat has summed it up best...The rest is what causes wars...

[edit on 23-6-2004 by KSoze]

I have to confess that I just can't understand why people pay attention to what people say rather than what they do.

With Islam for example, I don't care what the Quran says, even though the parts of it that I have read are full of hate, bigotry and extremely destructive dogma. I don't believe any book written by man is the word of God, including the Bible. I don't care what these people believe, I only care what they do with those beliefs. As far as I can tell, Islam uses their beliefs to justify war on anyone who doesn't submit to what they believe. Islam brings conflict, violence, and destruction everywhere it gains a foothold. Disagree? Fine. Then name a peaceful, successful Islamic nation. Can you? I can't think of one. In fact, if you can, name anywhere in the world that Muslims exist in large numbers without starting conflict with anyone who is different.

I have no respect for Islam (or any religion) when it is used to justify hate, murder, and terror. If it walks, talks and acts like a barbarian cult out of the Dark Ages, it probably is.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Then name a peaceful, successful Islamic nation. Can you? I can't think of one. In fact, if you can, name anywhere in the world that Muslims exist in large numbers without starting conflict with anyone who is different.

Bosnia. There, Muslims were victims of ethnic cleansing commited by orthodox christians who wanted to "clense" the balkan area from those who are not christians. Thousands women and children were tortured, killed, raped, because they are Muslims. Serbs destroyed all mosques, burned all records that Muslims ever lived in that area. Before that conflict everyone was living very peacefully in that part of the world. Then nationalist christians decided to go back to Crusades era and butcher those who do not accept their version of Bible.
The only part of Bosnia where no ethnic cleansing occured was the part controled by Muslims. There, the churches still stand, nobody harased, tortured or killed christians.

That does not answer the question, Paperclip. Bosnia is neither peaceful or successful.

No, what I am asking for is an example of any way at all that Islam has succeeded in doing anything good or making better any place that it has established itself.

All I'm asking for is just one Islamic success. Just one instance to prove that Islam has any positive value for the world. Anyone?

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
That does not answer the question, Paperclip. Bosnia is neither peaceful or successful.

No, what I am asking for is an example of any way at all that Islam has succeeded in doing anything good or making better any place that it has established itself.

All I'm asking for is just one Islamic success. Just one instance to prove that Islam has any positive value for the world. Anyone?

If you are gonna ask that question then why dont you ask about the several Christian underdeveloped warring nations in Africa. You are ignorant if you believe a religion defines a people. I think many members have stated that already including myself. I see baptist, protestant, catholic, preachers and priest shown to molest young boys. Does that mean every one of these congregations is a den of evil? By the Morroco and Algieria are examples. Successful compared to who, the U.S.? Be real. They are not on the bottom. Turkey is also peaceful. It's problems with terrorism are not daily slaughters like in the middle east and they have plent of money much of that from the U.S. trying to keep an ally by the mediterranean.

[edit on 6/23/2004 by MOOR45]

Originally posted by MOOR45

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
No, what I am asking for is an example of any way at all that Islam has succeeded in doing anything good or making better any place that it has established itself.

All I'm asking for is just one Islamic success. Just one instance to prove that Islam has any positive value for the world. Anyone?

If you are gonna ask that question then why dont you ask about the several Christian underdeveloped warring nations in Africa.

No, actually he has every right to ask that question and that question alone. This is not a discussion about Christian nations, he asked about ISLAMIC nations. There is no need to take the focus from one question and clump it with otheres. He does not need to look at Christian nations because that does not have anything to do with his question. Sticking to the question at hand is what is neccessary.

No, actually he has every right to ask that question and that question alone. This is not a discussion about Christian nations, he asked about ISLAMIC nations. There is no need to take the focus from one question and clump it with otheres. He does not need to look at Christian nations because that does not have anything to do with his question. Sticking to the question at hand is what is neccessary.
No, now you are misunderstanding me. The question was rhetorical in nature to understand his thinking about Islam as a religion. I didnt question his right to ask if you read my post again carefully, but to ask a question that would allow him to see that a few bad people in a religion does not a people make. It's very simple. We have to be sensitive to everyone here in terms of faith belief, etc.

[edit on 6/23/2004 by MOOR45]

Thank you Faisca. Most will wrongly assume that I'm a Christian looking to bash the opposition. That is false. I am not a Christian and I think similar things about their dogma and fear inspired control mechinisms. I thought this topic was about Islam, which is what I wrote about.

Ive asked similar questions about the "good" of Islam in a few other threads. I have yet to recieve satisfactory answers that meet the original criteria

[edit on 23-6-2004 by Ambient Sound]

Just about all religions proclaim to be the source of truth but instead become a source of conflict keeping humanity at each others throats ignorant of mans true destiny and the true face of God remains hidden.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Thank you Faisca. Most will wrongly assume that I'm a Christian looking to bash the opposition. That is false. I am not a Christian and I think similar things about their dogma and fear inspired control mechinisms. I thought this topic was about Islam, which is what I wrote about.

Ive asked similar questions about the "good" of Islam in a few other threads. I have yet to recieve satisfactory answers that meet the original criteria

[edit on 23-6-2004 by Ambient Sound]

You need to read posts more carefully. I cant make an assumption of you over the net just based on your statements. But it is crazy to say what good or bad a religion has done and use that against those who practice it's tenents. This is why even when we talk face to face about religion people have arguments and nations war. If you want to talk about good and bad in any religion, then none of it is good because it divides people who are not conscious enough to know that your belief in God unfolds when you unfold and there is only one. Stop letting the media brainwash you with images of nonsense. That is the point here. There are billions (est almost 2) in the world. How many of the "good" ones do you see on tv? Wake up! Ignorance breeds hatred.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
That does not answer the question, Paperclip. Bosnia is neither peaceful or successful.

Dude, it is peaceful. There were only 3 years of conflict in which Bosnia was attacked by their neighbours, before that it was peace, after that is peace. It is a very peaceful and tolerant country, actually the part controlled by muslim goverment is, the part controlled by orthodox christians is a huge problem, some of them are still very very ignorant, but are working on it.
It was on its way to success before the war in 1992. I don't know if you are aware of it, Bosnia was a part of Yugoslavia from 1945 till 1991, and yugoslavia was a communist country. They had a lot to work on after the fall of comunism and they were doing a very good job. If it weren't for the trigger happy neighbours they would be at a level of other east european states by now, like poland, Czech Republic, Slovenia etc, etc. The war was a huge setback, but they are slowly recovering from it. They are not succesful as the west, but not because they are Muslims, but because their neighbours are very ignorant and very much trigger happy.

Also, as someone mentioned, Turkey is quite peaceful, I'd say Malaysia is too, UAE as far as I know are too and some other neighbouring states.

Arab countries were colonies of the west until the early/mid 20th century and most democratic movements were stopped at their early stages ( reminder: Iran and the role of CIA in overthrowing elected candidate and replacing it with a horrible dictator in the 50s ). Also, the so-called "Cold" War was very much hot and was fought in Asia, in Middle East countries ( Russia and USA were each suporting dictators and keeping them in power to stop the other side from controling a country ) and in South East Asia. After the fall of communist Russia all those rogue states were just abandoned and a breeding ground for various extremist organisations was created. In their eyes, it was USA and Russia who destroyed their countries and then just left.
It has very little to do with religion itself, it has a lot to do with politics, power, money, resources. Common folk does not understand these issues, so they have to be driven by something else, religion. What do you think, how many people in arab countries have read the Qur'an? How many of them can read at all??

Tools of mass control: religion, communism, patriotism. Every goverment on this planet utilises one of those to control the population, to make them support whatever it is that the goverment is currently doing.

Nobody on this planet is immune against the desire to control, to have power, to do evil. The difference is, in the west all the evil things they do are ok and seen as part of the society, nobody blames entire nations and cultures for the deeds of a few. USA is a perfect country despite all murders, rapes, serial killers, religious extremism in the south, racism, militia etc, etc. But the rest of the world has to be absolutely perfect up to the very last individual, to be accepted. One slip-up by a rogue group and the whole continent, whole religion, is labeled as evil. Most people in Arab states go about their everyday work, getting food, water, money to survive. A small group ( it is a small group of a few 1000, compared to 1 billion muslims in the world) decided to go on a killing spree, and it is their actions that are considered a "normal" behaviour of every muslim, thats how they all are, nutters. Such thinking only makes those people believe extremists when they try to recruit new members "look how ignorant the west is, they hate your God, they hate Allah, they think we are all savages, they kill your sons and daughters, they think we are lesser species".

Terrorism is a very serious world-wide problem that feeds on ignorance of both sides, on poverty, wars, on uneducated people, who are bitter, angry, disapointed, with no future. That is what we have to fight if we want to fight terrorism.

Oh man, this is a long rant, and I think a bit off topic here, but IMO it is absolutely crucial to realise WHY people commit evil, if you want to prevent it in the future.

Paperclip, that wasn't a rant at all. That explanation was so detailed that I would be hard pressed to expand on it. I have been talking about brainwashing, etc. When we are the common people (not the elite), we have to use a greater deal of common sense to not be drawn into the games that the rich have created on the misfortunes of others (not all rich individuals). Tommorrow's future starts with how we thimk and turn those thoughts into action. It is scary because many are not educated on Islam as a whole, only from TV or what Muhammed brought to it. He was by no means the founder.

In reading your responses I notice that you point out how uneducated the average Muslim is and that most can't read the Quran. If true, I say that in itself proves that Islam is a failure. How can any system of beliefs that purposely keeps it's people in the dark ages be considered good? How can a people that enslaves half of their population be considered good?

This is what I don't understand. How can all these supposedly peaceful Muslims allow the things that are done in their name and the name of their god? Maybe you will reply that they have no control over what their religous leaders do. I say that is just BS. Who made them religous leaders in the first place. Who keeps going to hear them preaching hate and destruction. Who lets them stay in power? I suppose it must be these peaceloving Muslims we keep hearing about.

You point to the UAE and places like Qater and Oman and say, "Look, here is success". I will grant you that they may be peaceful at the moment, but most of those small countries have been supported by the West at some time and most of those countries have smaller populations than some US cities. You mentioned Malaysia but it is a constitutional monarchy, which is based English Common Law rather than on Islamic Rule and Law as far as I can tell. If you look at their neighbor Indonisia, you can see that it won't be long before Malaysia has similar troubles.

Let the flaming continue....

Originally posted by Ambient Sound

Disagree? Fine. Then name a peaceful, successful Islamic nation. Can you? I can't think of one. In fact, if you can, name anywhere in the world that Muslims exist in large numbers without starting conflict with anyone who is different.

I have no respect for Islam (or any religion) when it is used to justify hate, murder, and terror. If it walks, talks and acts like a barbarian cult out of the Dark Ages, it probably is.

Can you name a christian state that is peaceful. America has never seen a 20 year period with out War!!! In the month of May alone there were more murders in New York than in Bagdad!!!! So you are just showing how closed minded you are. You forget the Past and present of Christanity. They are the only religious orginization that had it's own Army so don't feed me that bull about it being a peaceful religion!!! We are just as violent as any nation that has been on this earth. There is a diffrence between protecting your self and occupying other nations!!!!!!

Originally posted by DaTruth

Can you name a christian state that is peaceful. America has never seen a 20 year period with out War!!! In the month of May alone there were more murders in New York than in Bagdad!!!! So you are just showing how closed minded you are. You forget the Past and present of Christanity. They are the only religious orginization that had it's own Army so don't feed me that bull about it being a peaceful religion!!! We are just as violent as any nation that has been on this earth. There is a diffrence between protecting your self and occupying other nations!!!!!!

Are you really calling New York a Christian City??
Are you really calling the U.S. in it's current state a Christian nation??

This nation STARTED with Godly principles, but has walked away from them.
Constitution says "all men are CREATED equal" Public school system says men EVOLVED.

Jesus Christ said "Harm one of these little ones and you might as well tie a huge rock around your neck and jump off a cliff into the ocean" (Paraphrase)
U.S. court say it is a womans right to choose whether her baby is going to live or not. (and then turns around and will allow it's still warm body to be used for "medical research")

Please, Please..... Please!!!! don't tell me that you think the catholic church is a Christian organization.
Edited to say: READ the words of Jesus Christ and then tell me if the catolic church follows those principles and that doctrine.

Bye-the-way Jesus said that "My kingdom is NOT of this world, if it were THEN would my servants fight"




[edit on 23-6-2004 by ab2tw]