Islam: An intolerant, inconsistent fallacy

Originally posted by Wintermorg
Hello Everyone,

Facts about the islam:

allah was a moongod before mohammed showed up and twisted the old pagan religion and destroyed the old arabic worlds with his nazi like propaganda, just like hitler did with the old german believes, he said he was the reincarnation of wotan, and that he did the thing he did because of wotan (see the connection between him and mohammed? alright then!)
read this comic about the origin of allah the moongod, the last part is about the christian god, i don't support that last part for i am not a christian, i reject christianity also,
www.chick.com...


[Edited on 2-6-2004 by Wintermorg]

[Edited on 2-6-2004 by Wintermorg]

[Edited on 2-6-2004 by Wintermorg]

Anyone that quotes Chick publications is seriously walking on thin ice.

Linguistic Preface: The Title "Allah" and the Name "YHWH"

A few points of linguistics must be prefaced before the subject at hand is addressed in fullness. For not only has the brutal repression of the Church blinded the masses to the historical reality of Jesus Christ himself, the Church has also concocted the Anti-Semitic lie that the term "Allah" is anything other than the `Arabic way to speak of the One Monotheistic God of the Children of Israel (as the Qur'an claims). Rather Christianity has set forth the lie that "Allah" is the name of some "moon god." This assertion is absurd, for it wasn't until the Ottoman Empire that the crescent moon and star became affiliated with the Muslim world. When the Turks conquered Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453, they adopted the city's existing flag and symbol. Legend holds that the founder of the Ottoman Empire, `Uthman, had a dream in which the crescent moon stretched from one end of the earth to the other. Taking this as a good omen, he chose to keep the crescent and make it the symbol of his dynasty.

The `Arabic term "Allah" is a combination of two words, "Al" (ال and "ilah" (إله. "Al" is the definite article in Arabic. Semitic linguists believe that the original root definite article of all Semitic languages was "Hal." With Hebrew it evolved as "Ha" and Arabic as "Al." Though it is not written as a letter in the Hebrew language the first consonant of the word following "the" (ה in Hebrew is doubled just as is done by the "Lam" (ل in the `Arabic "Al" (ال when it precedes certain letters.

The second word is "ilah." This means "divinity" or "god." But "ilah" is not definite. It can be made feminine (إلاهة, it can be made plural (آلهة and thus does not always convey the absoluteness of THE ONE God. So accordingly, when speaking of THE One God of Monotheism, the Qur'an says "Al-ilah" (الإله which is conjugated into "Allah" (الله.

Some have propagated a racist myth that the `Arabic language calls "God" by the name "Allah" because this was allegedly the name of an `Arabic "moon god." This is a lie based on white racists Christian's hatred for Semitic peoples. Christians claim that they have among them 14 Million Christian `Arabs. If that is the case, then this means that there are 14 Million Christians calling Allah by this name of "Allah" as well. The racists who tell you that "Allah is a moon god" are actually slandering the Christian faith of your brothers and sisters in Christ. [Abu' Jamal]



----River




P.S : Pardon the smiles. probably a transcriptional glitch.

[edit on 22-6-2004 by River Euphrates]

--Wooten123

Islam is not a new Religion. Prophet Muhammad( pbuh) was not the founder of Islam. He was in fact the Last Messenger of Islam. The word "Islam" is derived from the hebrew root " Shalom" (peace) and the aramaic "Shalem" (completion/perfection as in a Message). The full definition of Islam reflects all of these underlying meanings and can be translated " Submission to the Will of G-d in perfect harmony and accordance with the Laws of Nature". In short "Islam" is "Equilibrium". It is the balanced Din ( Way of Life). It is the Animus and the Equus. Islam is the very message that Jesus Christ (pbuh) taught . Jesus Christ taught and practiced the Religion of Ha'Shlama ( translation: Islam) and Prophet John the Baptist was an Islamic martyr.

According to the Qur'an , the Prophet Abraham(pbuh) was the first man to coin the term " Muslims" and he stated that his companions and descendents are Muslims. Similarly subseqent Prophets also used the term " Muslim" as a way of identifying themselves.

Jesus Christ referred to his disciples as "The Mushlam" and he urged others to emulate:

Jesus Christ (pbuh) using the word "Muslim" in Luke 6:40

Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo


Translation in English: "No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher."



----River

P.S: The Dead Sea Scrolls of Qumran also confirm that the righteous are known as the community that SUBMITS [ to perform Islam]

Originally posted by Wintermorg
Hello Everyone,

iMuhammed (pbuh) the------[edit]
he ------[edit] a 9 year old when he was 53
its so weak when people are trying to talk the -----[edit] of a child


Ayatollah Khomeini: [Edited on 2-6-2004 by Wintermorg]

[Edited on 2-6-2004 by Wintermorg]

[Edited on 2-6-2004 by Wintermorg]

Its pretty unusual that you cite the "Ayatollah " as some sort of authority. Who is the "Ayatollah" to me?.......

Well, anyways Ayesha's age dispute has never fully been resolved. Different hadiths state different ages ...anywhere between 9-23.....Thus, none of the sources are unanimous about her age. Although the vast majority of Sunnis and Shias fall trap to this Christian missionary propaganda....in the end no one has conlusively stated with all confidence that she was the age of 9.

here is a website that gives you a detailed breakdown of the debate surrounding Ayesha's age..

www26.brinkster.com...



----River

Originally posted by absinthealien
"Maybe you should actually start reading my posts then so you can maybe understand. Islam is not a religion, it's submission towards God. To be Muslim means you have surrendered before God. Adam and Abraham did just that, hence they were Muslim. Abraham wasn't a Jew. "

I thought Adam rebelled against God and that was what kicked the whole sin thing off. Rebellion doesn't equate to "surrender"

Adam did not openly "rebel" against G-d. What he did was subconscious.....he wasn't fully aware of the action until after commiting it..... In Islam, both Adam and Hawaa (Eve) were forgiven and finally exalted to noble ranks as 'G-d's Representatives" and "Inheritors of the Earth". And they SUBMITTED to G-d and G-d alone.


---River

[edit on 22-6-2004 by River Euphrates]

Originally posted by wooten123
4:141, And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumphs) over the believers.

Did I miss something? Your Allah lied to the Taliban because as far as the rest of the world knows the Taliban got waxed. Refute that.

The belief system of the Taliban is diametrically opposed to "orthodox" Islam. In fact the Heretical One-Eyed Supreme Leader of the Taliban has an uncanny resemblance to what is described of as "Dajjal-Al Masih"/"Anti-Christ" in the Hadiths.


---River

regarding Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)....


this is what Mahatma Gandhi a hindu pacifict and , A NATIONAL/UNIVERSAL ICON FOR PEACE had said:

Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924.

"I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life."

Originally posted by River Euphrates

Originally posted by wooten123
Illimatic I need to apologize to you, I am new here and did not realize you were mentally retarded. There are hundreds of religons that pre-date Islam. You are really reaching now and not using common sense. Then again most fanatics don't use reason at all.

Originally posted by Illmatic67
Islam was the original religion. Islam is more than just a religion, it means submission. Adam submitted to God, so did Enoch and Abraham. They were all Muslim because they submitted to God in Islam.

Islam is not a new Religion. Prophet Muhammad( pbuh) was not the founder of Islam. He was in fact the Last Messenger of Islam. The word "Islam" is derived from the hebrew root " Shalom" (peace) and the aramaic "Shalem" (completion/perfection as in a Message). The full definition of Islam reflects all of these underlying meanings and can be translated " Submission to the Will of G-d in perfect harmony and accordance with the Laws of Nature". In short "Islam" is "Equilibrium". It is the balanced Din ( Way of Life). It is the Animus and the Equus. Islam is the very message that Jesus Christ (pbuh) taught . Jesus Christ taught and practiced the Religion of Ha'Shlama ( translation: Islam) and Prophet John the Baptist was an Islamic martyr.

According to the Qur'an , the Prophet Abraham(pbuh) was the first man to coin the term " Muslims" and he stated that his companions and descendents are Muslims. Similarly subseqent Prophets also used the term " Muslim" as a way of identifying themselves.

Jesus Christ referred to his disciples as "The Mushlam" and he urged others to emulate:

Jesus Christ (pbuh) using the word "Muslim" in Luke 6:40

Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo


Translation in English: "No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher."



----River

P.S: The Dead Sea Scrolls of Qumran also confirm that the righteous are known as the community that SUBMITS [ to perform Islam]


[edit on 22-6-2004 by River Euphrates]

[edit on 22-6-2004 by River Euphrates]

Thank you for saving my fingers. Like the way you dropped science. You know how many Muslims believe Muhammed was the founder of Islam when even archaelogical evidence shows different. We have to stop promoting ignorance and using media to influence or minds and sprits. Think for yourselves and research. As long as they keep the common people at odds with petty stuff like religion, we will remain in a stagnant conciousness and be taken advantage of even more.

The Quran itself shows that it borrowed heavily from arabian myths and fables that existed before Islam.
people being turned into apes for fishing on the Sabbath-yep, thats what the quran says happens...lets not forget the fairy tale jinns...neither of these are exactly original concepts.
Islamic beliefs do not stand up to reasoning very well. Especially its concept of hell which noone on here has offered to explain. Probably because they realized how irrational the whole idea really was.
The quran is held to be flawless, the final revelation of allah to mankind. Does the Quran answer all the questions one might have? Nope, so its incomplete.
When is mankind going to learn that you cannot put infinity (ALL that is) into a book(s). Surrender to god....Yeah right...surrender your brain, your ideas, your life to our RELIGION; thats what there really talking about...

I keep asking about creation according to Islam, but no response. Does Islam cover creation?

Originally posted by KSoze
The Quran itself shows that it borrowed heavily from arabian myths and fables that existed before Islam.
people being turned into apes for fishing on the Sabbath-yep, thats what the quran says happens...

Islam does not believe in the concept of Sabath. G-d did not rest on the 7th Day nor does G-d need to rest.

----River

Originally posted by popeye0314
I keep asking about creation according to Islam, but no response. Does Islam cover creation?

1) Islam believes that G-d created other humanoid inhabitants on earth that preceded Adam. According to the classical scholar of Islam, Tabari ...these civilisation was known as "Devi and Peri". The angels have also witnessed the destruction and eventual extinction of most of these humanoid species. Thus, they were surprised that G-d would place another "race" on earth.


[2:30 Holy Quran]
Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

2) According to the Quran the Universe was created out of "Dhukhun" or gaseous smoke. Also according to the Qur'an the heavens and the earth were created in 6 period (indefinite) of time.


[7:54 Holy Qur'an ]Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds.



3) Also, the Qur'an also tells us that all living creatures were made from water...

[21:30 Holy Quran]

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?



----River

"O ye unto whom the Scripture hath been given! Believe in what We have revealed confirming that which you posses, before we destroy countenances so as to confound them or curse them as We cursed the Sabbathbreakers (of old time), The commandment of Allah is always executed. Lo!" Q4:47,48.
AND
"and ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes despised and hated! And We make it an example to their own and to the succeeding generations, and an admonition to the God fearing" Q2:65;66

This is only parts of it:
River, this is straight from the Qu'ran...I simply said what the Qu'ran reads...it is a part of the story...Do islamists not believe that the Qu'ran is the word of god. If they do, then how do they disregard these words?
These people were punished for breaking the sabbath were they not?
Now a question for any Islamist:
Who exactly were these fisherman that were turned into apes? Are these people's (apes) descendants still alive today?
River, The purpose of the sabbath isn't necessarily for rest...perhaps it is to reflect on god and his work. No, god doesn't need rest. But then again, god really doesn't NEED to do anything

Originally posted by Illmatic67

Originally posted by KrazyIvan
the bible is the only holy book were the god said that he loved the world and its people

Holy Qur'an, 1:1

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the Worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
You do we worship, and Your aid do we seek.
Show us the straight way.
The way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, those whose portion is not wrath, and who do not go astray.

----------------------

You see, reading is so cool. If you actually open up a Qur'an and read it you might learn something. [/quote

�Kill them, for he who kills them will get a great reward. Our great leader said, �Our doctrine assigns for a person who participates in battles in our cause to be rewarded with booty if he survives, or he will be admitted into the Hall of Heroes if he is killed in the battle as a martyr. Had I not found it difficult for my followers to do without me I would have remained in army units fighting great battles and would have loved to have been martyred for the cause.��


�We have conquered another nation. The captives and the booty have all been collected. Now, my leader, may I take a slave girl from among the prisoners?� �Take any one you like,�


�Embrace our doctrine first and then fight.�

�I have been made victorious with terror!�

No thanks, muhammads god is not merciful.

Originally posted by KSoze
The Quran itself shows that it borrowed heavily from arabian myths and fables that existed before Islam.
people being turned into apes for fishing on the Sabbath-yep, thats what the quran says happens...lets not forget the fairy tale jinns...neither of these are exactly original concepts.
Islamic beliefs do not stand up to reasoning very well. Especially its concept of hell which noone on here has offered to explain. Probably because they realized how irrational the whole idea really was.
The quran is held to be flawless, the final revelation of allah to mankind. Does the Quran answer all the questions one might have? Nope, so its incomplete.
When is mankind going to learn that you cannot put infinity (ALL that is) into a book(s). Surrender to god....Yeah right...surrender your brain, your ideas, your life to our RELIGION; thats what there really talking about...

One thing we learn in history is that if you want to understand a specific people at a specific time, you have to be able not to judge them according to our 21st century code of conduct or set of morals.

For example, it is said that for a 6th-century Frankish warrior, cruelty was a virtue - not because the Franks were bad people, but because the events that set those Franks on the move (some think they were invaded) and pushed them against the walls of the Roman Empire made them develop a culture of "survival of the fittest" where it's eat or be eaten. No wonder, then, that in Merovingian law, the fine you had to pay for cutting off a warrior's arm was often heftier than the one for killing a woman.

Same thing for the context surrounding the creation of Islam, at the beginning of the 7th century. Here are some of the arguments that have been raised against Islam in this thread:

1) When he was 53, Mohammed married a 9-year-old.
That was actually pretty commonplace in the Middle Ages. I don't know about Arabic culture, but in Europe this was often done to secure a critical alliance - Austria's motto in the 15th century was "Others make war - you, happy Austria, you wed", signifying that by allying itself by matrimony, Austria extended its territory.
- King Philip VI of France (1328-1350) married his second wife, then aged 15, when he himself was 56.
- King Henry VIII of England married his fifth wife Catherine Howard when he was 50 and she was 17.

2) The Quran does not stand up to reasoning.
Usually, religion is not about reasoning, it is about belief, about faith and miracles. This is why in the Middle Ages the first (religious) plays performed in front of cathedrals on holy days were called "mysteries" - and why in modern Catholic masses the priest still chants "How great is the mystery of faith". Religion is not about the rational, it is about something hidden that is revealed without explanation, it's about metaphysics.

3) The Quran contains stories that don't make any sense
Remember, the Quran and the Bible were both written at a time when most people didn't know how to read or write. Most cultural informations were transmitted by word of mouth, and culture was replete with colorful imagery, often based on a distant truth but distorted for the sake of entertainment and so people would remember the stories easily. These people were used to end their evenings telling stories to pass the time - that's what you do if you don't read or have TV. That's why Jesus often spoke in parables, which had images people could understand and pass down easily. But it's the message that counts, not necessarily the entertainment value of the stories.

As I said... it's all about understanding the context these people lived in.

You make a good point about context. However, we can assume that the context has changed now, right? Where barbarism and savagry may have been, by your arguement, common and proper in those times. What is their excuse now? The problem with Islam is exactly that. Although the context and situation of the world has changed drastically, Islam will not change or adapt itself to fit new circumstances. Screw the past. Do you think that beheadings and ripping bodies apart in the street to appease the bloodthirsty mob are proper in today's context? Hasn't our social evolution supposedly brought us beyond that? We like to think so.

It appears that the social evolution of Islam just stopped somewhere along the way. They seem to be doing things the exact same way as they did during the dark ages.

Originally posted by KSoze
"O ye unto whom the Scripture hath been given! Believe in what We have revealed confirming that which you posses, before we destroy countenances so as to confound them or curse them as We cursed the Sabbathbreakers (of old time), The commandment of Allah is always executed. Lo!" Q4:47,48.
AND
"and ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes despised and hated! And We make it an example to their own and to the succeeding generations, and an admonition to the God fearing" Q2:65;66

This is only parts of it:
River, this is straight from the Qu'ran...I simply said what the Qu'ran reads...it is a part of the story...Do islamists not believe that the Qu'ran is the word of god. If they do, then how do they disregard these words?
These people were punished for breaking the sabbath were they not?
Now a question for any Islamist:
Who exactly were these fisherman that were turned into apes? Are these people's (apes) descendants still alive today?
River, The purpose of the sabbath isn't necessarily for rest...perhaps it is to reflect on god and his work. No, god doesn't need rest. But then again, god really doesn't NEED to do anything

1) Most of what you seem to be saying here has some truth value. Islam is the "Perennial Philosophy" the crystallization and manifestation of truths found in all religions....It does indeed confirm what came before it.....we believe in 124,000 Prophets and 315 Messengers ....that is indeed enough to cover all the significant religious personalities found in all previous religions. However, to me it seems as if you are hinting that these are merely "fables" or mythos without truth.

[16:24 Holy Qur'an]
When it is said to them, "What is it that your Lord has revealed?" they say, "Tales of the ancients!"


some thoughts on the notion of religious borrowing

thetruereligion.org...



2) Why did G-d turn those mischief-making men into apes? Well, I don't know ...perhaps because they were causing trouble.....And G-d knows best .

However, why did G-d chose to transform them into apes....and what does this story serve by being included in the Qur'an. Perhaps it is the first reminder to the (scientific/agnostic) world that perhaps apes are the closest animals to humans.....many , many centuries before Darwin. However, in all honesty ...I really don't know. I don't think it matters as much as people make it out to seem.


---River

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
You make a good point about context. However, we can assume that the context has changed now, right? Where barbarism and savagry may have been, by your arguement, common and proper in those times. What is their excuse now? The problem with Islam is exactly that. Although the context and situation of the world has changed drastically, Islam will not change or adapt itself to fit new circumstances. Screw the past. Do you think that beheadings and ripping bodies apart in the street to appease the bloodthirsty mob are proper in today's context? Hasn't our social evolution supposedly brought us beyond that? We like to think so.

It appears that the social evolution of Islam just stopped somewhere along the way. They seem to be doing things the exact same way as they did during the dark ages.

Actually, what I was saying was really about the birth of religions. It can be applied to christianity too.

As to the Muslims and killing - obviously, when people die, like Berg, Johnson or Kim, in such a horrendous way, the temptation is great to say that they are all like that - or at least, a vast majority of them. However, I believe that someone in this thread or another one used a term I enjoyed very much: "CNN muslims", that is those who are captured on camera burning flags and shaking AK-47s at the camera. Are most Muslims like that? I don't think we can be so categoric about it. I think the only thing that differentiates Muslim and Christian extremisms is that a number of Muslim extremists will kill in God's name. It's horrible and barbaric, but it's extremism - is it the mainstream? I would hope not, and I'd be stunned.

Besides, is their cause religious or political? I would think political, but they're blanketing it with a religious justification.

Its all the same.

I don't know if I've said it before in this forum or I've just thought it alot. But I'll say it again.

Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism,etc...etc....etc....They are all the exact same thing, simply morphed for different cultures and time periods. Love yourself, love others, love god, be good. That's all that they are trying to say. All the other stuff is there for decoration.

But that's just my point of view.

Scat - And I happen to agree with your point of view. Have you read "The Good Heart: A Buddhist Perspective on the Teachings of Jesus", a book written from a series of interviews by priests with the Dalai Lama?

When you break it down to the essential... the only important message is to love one another.

No I've never read it, but I'll surely check it out. Thanks for the tip Otts.
:-D