Islam: An intolerant, inconsistent fallacy

Originally posted by DaTruth

Can you name a christian state that is peaceful. America has never seen a 20 year period with out War!!! In the month of May alone there were more murders in New York than in Bagdad!!!! So you are just showing how closed minded you are. You forget the Past and present of Christanity. They are the only religious orginization that had it's own Army so don't feed me that bull about it being a peaceful religion!!! We are just as violent as any nation that has been on this earth. There is a diffrence between protecting your self and occupying other nations!!!!!!

I challange you to find anywhere that I said anything at all about Christianity being a peaceful religion? I haven't forgotten anything. As I said before I don't have to look at Christian religions. I'm not a Christian. I don't particularly like Christians and I absolutely agree that Christianity isn't or hasn't been very peaceful. Bash Christianity as you wish and I will probably agree with you. I dispise most religions equally and see them as nothing more than a clever but outdated means to control people. I see nothing "holy" in any of it and I don't think any Religion has the least clue about God and what God is about. However, I haven't seen or heard of any Christians flying planes into buildings lately and I don't see Christians beheading people on a regular basis. Please make sure you know what I actually said before you rebut it.

For some reason you can't debate me on the topic, which is Islam. So, you feel you have to attack something you have assumed, in error, that I hold dear.

Try using logic instead of emotion as the basis for your thought processes and we may be able to have a rational debate.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
In reading your responses I notice that you point out how uneducated the average Muslim is and that most can't read the Quran. If true, I say that in itself proves that Islam is a failure. How can any system of beliefs that purposely keeps it's people in the dark ages be considered good? How can a people that enslaves half of their population be considered good?

This is what I don't understand. How can all these supposedly peaceful Muslims allow the things that are done in their name and the name of their god? Maybe you will reply that they have no control over what their religous leaders do. I say that is just BS. Who made them religous leaders in the first place. Who keeps going to hear them preaching hate and destruction. Who lets them stay in power? I suppose it must be these peaceloving Muslims we keep hearing about.

You point to the UAE and places like Qater and Oman and say, "Look, here is success". I will grant you that they may be peaceful at the moment, but most of those small countries have been supported by the West at some time and most of those countries have smaller populations than some US cities. You mentioned Malaysia but it is a constitutional monarchy, which is based English Common Law rather than on Islamic Rule and Law as far as I can tell. If you look at their neighbor Indonisia, you can see that it won't be long before Malaysia has similar troubles.

Let the flaming continue....

Let's forget the Middle East for a second. I am a Moslem (not traditional Muslim) who is by no means illiterate. I have 2 degrees of which one is a Masters in Public Administration. There are several Moslemsand Muslims who in the United States are well educated. Religion has nothing to do with illiteracy and I will not agree that these countries are illiterate by any strech of the imagination. Is a muslim to go out and stop every maniacal leader who claims to follow the laws of Islam? There are many practicing muslims in our government and every day life. Should we purge tem out b/c they may become fanatical? You need to examine your premise before presenting these themes. If what you say is true, we are in for troubled times in this country. Oh by the way, as sick as Sadaam Hussein is, Iraq was more stable and "peaceful" under his rule than American military occupation.

You dont see christians flying planes into buildings and beheading huh? Are you familiar with the Crusades and many Moslems were killed for their beliefs becasue they would not convert. Or how about Europe in the late 15th century especially in Spain? Timothy McVeigh, was what, a muslim? Or the Japanese at pearl Harbor, surely they were of the Mohammedian religion no? How about the men who hung men by their testicles from trees because of their color? Ah yes they were probably all Muslim. Give me a break! Read this link by UM_Gazz. www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 6/23/2004 by MOOR45]

No, you missunderstand me. I guess I should have said I don't see Christians doing that now. I guess you would prefer to ignore the social evolution that has taken place in the West in the last 50 years or so, while Islam doesn't seem to have evolved since the 7th Century. Islam beheaded someone yesterday.

Once again, someone can't defend Islam in a logical way so they have to try to turn it around and point it back at someone else. Arguing Christian fallacies holds no weight with me at all. I'm not a Christian and don't feel the need to defend them so find something else to try to piss me off with.

This topic isn't about Christians. It's about Islam. Of course I expect you have the Liberal Debaters Handbook open right now and are about to move past the chapter on changing the subject of the debate to the one on personal attacks.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
This topic isn't about Christians. It's about Islam. Of course I expect you have the Liberal Debaters Handbook open right now and are about to move past the chapter on changing the subject of the debate to the one on personal attacks.

Even though I'm not adding a lot to the discussion, I'm following it. And this is the problem that I see in the thread. People aren't talking about Islam, they try to change the subject, or pull in other variables. There are no other subjects in this thread, only Islam. Ambient Sound is trying to argue logically about Islam, not about Christianity, not about the Japanese, not about Jews, not about Hitler. But about ISLAM. There are some posts that add to the discussion about Islam, and I thank those people for those posts.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
No, you missunderstand me. I guess I should have said I don't see Christians doing that now. I guess you would prefer to ignore the social evolution that has taken place in the West in the last 50 years or so, while Islam doesn't seem to have evolved since the 7th Century. Islam beheaded someone yesterday.

Once again, someone can't defend Islam in a logical way so they have to try to turn it around and point it back at someone else. Arguing Christian fallacies holds no weight with me at all. I'm not a Christian and don't feel the need to defend them so find something else to try to piss me off with.

This topic isn't about Christians. It's about Islam. Of course I expect you have the Liberal Debaters Handbook open right now and are about to move past the chapter on changing the subject of the debate to the one on personal attacks.

You talk about one on one personal attacks and you attack a whole people who exercise a belief. Throw all the fanatics in on eboat. Can't defend Islam? There is nothing to defend. True Islam is way of life which I try to live and improve myself. I dont need to defend anything about it. Islam didnt behead anyone, a sick individual(s) did. Problem is your stance has been illogical 95% of the way. I see when I responded to you about intelligent Muslims you stood mute. This is no one on one as many here have discussed their dismay at you're so-called logic. However, ignorance doesn't always require a response. I gave you examples to show you why you were in error in your belief of Islam yet you say their is no logical response. Believe what you must but it is views like yours which keep the masses in the dark.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
I have to confess that I just can't understand why people pay attention to what people say rather than what they do.

With Islam for example, I don't care what the Quran says, even though the parts of it that I have read are full of hate, bigotry and extremely destructive dogma. I don't believe any book written by man is the word of God, including the Bible. I don't care what these people believe, I only care what they do with those beliefs. As far as I can tell, Islam uses their beliefs to justify war on anyone who doesn't submit to what they believe. Islam brings conflict, violence, and destruction everywhere it gains a foothold. Disagree? Fine. Then name a peaceful, successful Islamic nation. Can you? I can't think of one. In fact, if you can, name anywhere in the world that Muslims exist in large numbers without starting conflict with anyone who is different.

I have no respect for Islam (or any religion) when it is used to justify hate, murder, and terror. If it walks, talks and acts like a barbarian cult out of the Dark Ages, it probably is.

In October I visited the North of Benin, in Western Africa. The population there is over 80 per cent Muslim. Yet there is an organized Catholic church, as well as an organized Protestant ministry. I was in Benin to survey the needs of the community I visited, as my employer, with the help of the Canadian International Development Agency, had a project to help that community. While we were there, it was the mayor and the promoter of the local radio station - both Muslims - who insisted that if we wanted a real portrait of the community, they needed to take us to visit the mosque, AS WELL AS the Catholic church and the Protestant church. They knew the priest and the minister by name, shook hands with him and made small talk.

Now, if I were to subscribe to your theory, the only possible outcome would've been for the mayor and the promoter to call on the population to massacre the Catholics and Protestants in their midst. That didn't happen. In fact, we stayed over for lunch at the Catholic church... us and our Muslim hosts.

And YES, I travelled through a good part of that country - Benin - and I saw no conflict, only people working together very hard to improve their lot.

So there you go... I named a country. And I'm sure there are more. It's just that CNN doesn't pay attention to them, because they don't wave guns or burn flags, and that doesn't make for good TV action.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound

Originally posted by DaTruth

Can you name a christian state that is peaceful. America has never seen a 20 year period with out War!!! In the month of May alone there were more murders in New York than in Bagdad!!!! So you are just showing how closed minded you are. You forget the Past and present of Christanity. They are the only religious orginization that had it's own Army so don't feed me that bull about it being a peaceful religion!!! We are just as violent as any nation that has been on this earth. There is a diffrence between protecting your self and occupying other nations!!!!!!

I challange you to find anywhere that I said anything at all about Christianity being a peaceful religion? I haven't forgotten anything. As I said before I don't have to look at Christian religions. I'm not a Christian. I don't particularly like Christians and I absolutely agree that Christianity isn't or hasn't been very peaceful. Bash Christianity as you wish and I will probably agree with you. I dispise most religions equally and see them as nothing more than a clever but outdated means to control people. I see nothing "holy" in any of it and I don't think any Religion has the least clue about God and what God is about. However, I haven't seen or heard of any Christians flying planes into buildings lately and I don't see Christians beheading people on a regular basis. Please make sure you know what I actually said before you rebut it.

For some reason you can't debate me on the topic, which is Islam. So, you feel you have to attack something you have assumed, in error, that I hold dear.

Try using logic instead of emotion as the basis for your thought processes and we may be able to have a rational debate.

There isn't a nation out there that has been peaceful and sucessful. You can say that the U.S is sucessful but it sure as hell isn't peaceful or has a peaceful past. Your question is unrealistic because all human fight in one way or another. So you will not find a peaceful and sucessful nation anywere on the world Islam included. Is that rational enough for ya?

Originally posted by Faisca

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
This topic isn't about Christians. It's about Islam. Of course I expect you have the Liberal Debaters Handbook open right now and are about to move past the chapter on changing the subject of the debate to the one on personal attacks.

Even though I'm not adding a lot to the discussion, I'm following it. And this is the problem that I see in the thread. People aren't talking about Islam, they try to change the subject, or pull in other variables. There are no other subjects in this thread, only Islam. Ambient Sound is trying to argue logically about Islam, not about Christianity, not about the Japanese, not about Jews, not about Hitler. But about ISLAM. There are some posts that add to the discussion about Islam, and I thank those people for those posts.

Until you can add something of substance you are only sounding like his lawyer. To discuss Islam you have to properly contrast the fanaticism he is talking about to religion and sick minded people as a whole. You fail to understand that. I'll explain in elementary terms. Religion does not define a people, period. The original form of Islam is an ancient way of life and based on peace and the higher natural sciences. It has no borders based on color. It has no geographical limitations. It is only limited and skewed by the practitioner as with any doctrine. Mohammed came with a doctrine and Koran that took pieces of the foundation of Islam and turned it into one of biases to a degree. Everything in the modern version of the Koran is not perverted. His messsage and teachings became the staple of the area naturally. Although I alos say some of the content of the Koran is misunderstood. Islam is one of the most misunderstood religions b/c here in the states and worldwide it is not taught enough adn additionally not taught in full. This is just a small piece of the reason people feel anger towards this religion. As usual, just as it has gone on for centuries in all religions, governments, etc, a group uses religion to promote limited, personal feelings to push an agenda. This is futher agitated by outside forces. If someone has a limited view of something, the best way to explain some of these points is to contrast. That was the purpose of the examples, not to change the subject. So before you criticize, look at the whole picture based on unbiased logic, not emotion.

Originally posted by MOOR45
Until you can add something of substance you are only sounding like his lawyer.

Well hey I have no problem with helping out a fellow ATSer in a discussion...

I understand that Islamic fundamentalists terrorists don't make up all of Islam. I understand that there are fundamentalists in all walks of life, and that a small number of people should not be used to defame an entire way of life.

I'm personally not a scholar on the Koran, nor do I pretend to have anything more than a brief understanding of its content and teachings. I apologize for not being able to add anything of substance to the thread, but I would end up restating only what others have said. I think this is a very interesting discussion, and I enjoy reading it.

Originally posted by MOOR45
Let's forget the Middle East for a second. I am a Moslem (not traditional Muslim) who is by no means illiterate. I have 2 degrees of which one is a Masters in Public Administration. There are several Moslemsand Muslims who in the United States are well educated. Religion has nothing to do with illiteracy and I will not agree that these countries are illiterate by any strech of the imagination.

Moor45, I am not the one who said that most Muslims (moslems?) are illiterate. That was an excuse given earlier by someone arguing on your side of this debate. I just took his statement and followed it a little ways to demonstrate that it was a poor excuse.

Is a muslim to go out and stop every maniacal leader who claims to follow the laws of Islam?

If they start killing and enslaving people, yes.

There are many practicing muslims in our government and every day life. Should we purge tem out b/c they may become fanatical?

Again, only if they start killing and enslaving people.

You need to examine your premise before presenting these themes.

I consider everything I write quite carefully thanks. I have no problem saying things that some people don't like and disagreeing with the "established" dogma of whatever situation is being disscussed.

If what you say is true, we are in for troubled times in this country.

Agreed. We are in for troubled times.

Oh by the way, as sick as Sadaam Hussein is, Iraq was more stable and "peaceful" under his rule than American military occupation.

Well it took Saddam a decade or more to get Iraq to the sorry state it was in so I'm willing to wait a little longer to see what the real truth of that statement is. Also, I wouldn't say peaceful. I would say beaten down into submission. When a population is too frightened to object I suppose that can be seen as a form of Peace somehow.

Ambient Sound nice way not to reply to my answer to your question. I think we agree on one thing that religion can confuse people and make them irrational. But to single out a religion is just ignorant especally when you can see that is proment in almost all religions.

By the way, I am not attacking any race or group of people. If you like I am attacking a system of beliefs that seem to me to condone the worst sort of violence and barbarism that can be found on the planet which is what this topic is about.

[edit added] Well you will have to excuse me DT, i'll get to your answer. I type slowly and I like to consider what I write before I post it.

You point out that no place is really peaceful. That is a truth I suppose because that is human nature. But isn't the true purpose of any religion to help us control that violent human nature and get farther away from being savage humans and closer to being more like God? Nothing I have read or had quoted to me from the Quran seems to encourage getting closer to God by discarding this animal behavior. In fact it seems to offer such behavior as the prefered way to handle problems.

[2nd edit added] Nope, none of you need to defend Islam to me. I think all religions are mostly crap, Chritianity included. You faithful followers of Islam can let us say what we want about your religion. That is what you do with your Fanantics right, let them say want they want about your religion? Hmmm. Look where that is getting you. [2nd edit end]

[3rd edit added] I would like to point out that not all Germans were Nazis but the Nazis still managed to drag the rest of Germany into starting the biggest war in history. Why, O peaceful followers of Islam cannot you see this happening to you now? Did Hitler speak for all Germans? No. Does Osama and his crew speak for all Islam. Probably not, but in the end it didn't matter did it? [3nd edit end]

[edit on 23-6-2004 by Ambient Sound]

[edit on 23-6-2004 by Ambient Sound]

[edit on 23-6-2004 by Ambient Sound]

Well for the record I am not going from country to country for fanatics who don't represent me or Islam as a whole. I'm not Superman neither is anyone here. I said a thousand times before religions divided people. Obviously you didnt take the time to read my posts. Islam is supposed to be a science of a way of living not a reigion as it is today. Same with older forms of chrisianity. Today you say it's muslims, tommorrow it'll be something else. If that is the case we should be having an all out war based on your theory especially with almost 2 billion muslims plus.

[edit on 6/23/2004 by MOOR45]

Oh by the way, as sick as Sadaam Hussein is, Iraq was more stable and "peaceful" under his rule than American military occupation.

I don't know about you, but to any rational person compliance under the threat of force does not constitute peace anymore than a man handing over his wallet to an armed robber who isn't actually shooting him.

Eastern, I was only being sarcastic about that to make a point to Ambient. I would not suggest that he had a truly peaceful society under he's crazy rule. Saddam is one of the perfect examples of the fanaticism which does not explore the foundations of Isalm.

[edit on 6/23/2004 by MOOR45]

Actually I don't consider Saddam to have been a Religously driven fanatic at all, just your run of the mill greedy, power-hungry meglomaniac. He only started evoking Islam at the end to try to rally support when his fantasy of resisting the US revealed itself to be the hooka dream that it was.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Actually I don't consider Saddam to have been a Religously driven fanatic at all, just your run of the mill greedy, power-hungry meglomaniac. He only started evoking Islam at the end to try to rally support when his fantasy of resisting the US revealed itself to be the hooka dream that it was.

This is probably the only post you've stated that is actually based on fact. Everything else stated prior to this post of yours.....can more or less be disregarded.


---River

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
No, you missunderstand me. I guess I should have said I don't see Christians doing that now. I guess you would prefer to ignore the social evolution that has taken place in the West in the last 50 years or so, while Islam doesn't seem to have evolved since the 7th Century.

Perhaps your history textbooks do not cover the 1,100 years or so when the Islamic empire was the predominant world leader as well as its significant contributions to Science. It was only around the 1800's that the Islamic world seen a decline or " de-evolution" as you may call it.

However, this is normal every known empire and civilisation on Earth had its ups and downs. Even Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has stated in many Hadiths that there will come a time in which " terror" will be prevalent and the Islamic world will be deprived of Sincere leaders. He stated that the Dictators and Oppressors will rule the "Muslims". A companion of his was confused and asked the Prophet ...If the decline in Islam's success is due to limited numbers. The Prophet said no....he said that the Muslims will be everywhere but their decline is due to their attachment to "materialism" and their negligence of the Qur'an.


However, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) stated that his successor will arise from Iraq...He will be the Mahdi ( the archetypal Elijah) who will assist Jesus Christ ( who will descend in Damascus, Syria). Together they will bring peace to the world and bring it back to "Equilibrium" and prevent the powerful One-Eyed Dajjal that will emerge from Khuraasan (Afghanistan/Iran)....


----River

Perhaps your history textbooks do not cover the 1,100 years or so when the Islamic empire was the predominant world leader as well as its significant contributions to Science. It was only around the 1800's that the Islamic world seen a decline or " de-evolution" as you may call it.

The last vestige of Islamic supremacy was destroyed in 1683 when the Poles and Germans slaughtered the invading imperialist Turks at Vienna. The Ottoman Empire began a 240 year decline into oblivion. In terms of cultural achievements, Moslems virtutally stopped because of the Mongols and TimurLenk.

[edit on 23-6-2004 by Eastern_Diamondback]