What chapter and verse in the quran does it say that the world in flat? I'm just asking becasue I haven't read the whole book yet. Only about half.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep



One who submits to God is automaticly regarded as a Muslim, even if the God and doctrine are different ?



Deep

If I may answer this one...
Muslim means Submitter, the one who submits to God. Qur'an doesnt differ here between nations, past, present. Anyone who submits to God is muslim regardless of a label put on him. The first submitter was Adam. All prophets are considered to be Muslims ( Submitters ) because of their devotion to God and faith. The way Muslims of today pray, submitting to God, puts them all in this group.

There is another word for religious people "mumin" meaning believer, to that counts anyone who believes in God, without actually fully devoting his life to God or practicing faith.

Some statements I've read in this thread are really starting to convince me that with a number of Americans being very devout Christians, what's going on in the Middle East is truly a Crusade against the Infidel, and if public opinion really believes what is being said about Islam, then we really are no better than 12th-century peasants being told that the Saracens are out to rape their wives and enslave their children...

It's all so very, very sad.

Originally posted by Solarix
This is not from a christian or jewish perspective; I thought I would get that out of the way to begin with.

Is Islam a religion where you have to check "free-thinking" at the door and embrace a tyranical, murderous, intolerant worldview?

IMO: YES!

1. How can the Koran be the infallable word of God when it contains nonsense like the earth is flat and the sun moves around the earth.

2. How can it be said that Mohammed was a loving and compassionate man yet he killed, robbed and sadisticly tortured people. ie: a man was murdered for making fun of Mohammed in poetry.
Also, Mohammed tortured and punished some by chopping of their arms and legs, burning out their eyeballs and killing them slowly in the harsh elements of the desert.

3. Why do Muslim claim that Mohammed was a liberator of women when it is taught that women are:
a) inferior to men
b) must obey their husbands - or be dealt with harshly
c) Mohammed said that hell was filled with women due to disobeying their husbands
d) Husbands can beat them because Allah promotes this in the koran.
e) Have no essential rights like child-custody and the right to divorce.
f) Court testomony is worth only half of the testomony of a man.
g) She has no autonomy, first her father controls her then her husband.
h) Allah wants them to stay at home and not to came out.
i) They are forbidden to join ceremonies such as funerals.
j) The Koran speaks only towards man as if woman arent full human beings.

4. How can Muslims say that Mohammed was a perfect human-being or even a good man and his example should be followed when it is known that he did a 9-year old girl when he was 53?
Don't many muslims follow this example because the best muslims should follow the Sunna?


5.How can it be said that Islam is a religion of peace and love when the koran teaches that non-believers are forbidden to be friends of muslims and in fact the koran promotes killing them and otherwise abusing them?

here in the UK: Sadly a friend of mine (a white man) is married to a Pakistani girl. I can sadly tell you she fled her home because of: rape, beatings, abuse and general evil all because the men of the house feel its their right indeed DUTY to do so. her brothers and father beat her, her sisters and her mother. Tried to abduct her child (reputed to be her OWN fathers kid concieved through rape)

She fled with her child and will never go back home because she knows she will be KILLED if she returns because she's in love with a white man.

The police was informed and do you know what they said: Its an Asian matter we wont get involved because of the problems it will cause. The police are TOO AFRAID because of the political correct crap that will be generated.

Muslims are also some of the most intolerant people around, they consider all non muslims to be inferior, and women are regarded to be lower than cattle and dogs.

I also know that the abuse and subsequent police inaction is NOT an isolated incident here in the UK.

Dont get me wrong, i know Muslims as individuals and they are OK people, but i will never trust their religeon, not knowing what i know or seeing what i have. Im sorry i will never.

[edit on 20-6-2004 by rustiswordz]

[
This is entirly false. I know of many Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhist that commite the same act, what your point? Where in the world are you getting all your information from ? I am Punjabi Sikh living in Canada, and I have come across these crimes even in my fellow Sikh households ( beatings and women being deemed inferior only ), and Sikhism is one of the most tolerant doctrines on the face of the planet. Many of my good freinds are Muslims from Arab countries, Africa, India, Pakistan, and in my observation they are some of the most tolerant peoples I have ever met.

What you are describing could be cultural and social, nothing to do with Islam as a doctrine.





Deep

Actually the family of the girl in question hadn't been in the country very long. And what right does the family have to beat the # out of this girl and doezens like them just because the girls see the western way of life and realise its a way out of their torment.

Cutural differences, what a pitiful excuse to beating a girl half to death at the hands of he OWN flesh and blood. None, no reason at all, there is no justification whatsoever.


[edit on 20-6-2004 by rustiswordz]

What does her beating have anything to do with Muslim people in general ?
Are all Muslims women beaters, savages, primitive ? That makes no sense at all, this thread is about the doctrine, not its people.

Deep

I want people to understand exactly where I stand on things...

Yes, there are - especially in Saudi Arabia - a huge amount of instances of crimes against women.

Yes, there is a very fundamentalist streak of Islam which has led to the Taliban reintroducing lapidation as a mode of execution and forbidding citizens to listen to music or read books.

Yes, some Muslims did cheer when 9-11 happened.

HOWEVER...

In Africa, Islam is often a force of development - in some regions, Muslims will work and live alongside Christians and work towards a better life.

In Morocco, King Mohammed VI has put forth an education initiative a few years ago, targeted, among others, towards girls.

For those Muslims who cheered on 9-11, there were also a huge number (who weren't before the TV cameras) who sadly shook their heads and said "The people who did this are *not* Muslims..."

What I find really scary is going through this site and seeing how people are ready to unilaterally condemn an entire religion­ and the people who practice it. It's scary, and it's unjust.

It has everything to do with it. Muslim doctrine is full of violent metaphor and religeous hate. much of this entire thread covers how i feel and have plenty of examples of how evil it is.

I shant say anymore, the anger is up and i may say something i regret, Zero deep we must agree to disagree, you say its not an evil religeon i say it is and nothing we can say to each other will alter our perspectives on this.

Originally posted by rustiswordz
It has everything to do with it. Muslim doctrine is full of violent metaphor and religeous hate. much of this entire thread covers how i feel and have plenty of examples of how evil it is.

I shant say anymore, the anger is up and i may say something i regret, Zero deep we must agree to disagree, you say its not an evil religeon i say it is and nothing we can say to each other will alter our perspectives on this.

But you based your entire argument over a domestive issue, not actualy attacked the doctrine.

Deep

The quality or rightousness of a Religion, like much else in the Universe, is not based on what they say they believe but what they do because of those beliefs.

I apologize to peaceful Muslams everywhere but your violent brethern in the Islamic Faith seem to be doing everything possible to be certain that Islam is considered the Enemy by every other Civilization and Religion on the Planet. I would suggest that you who consider yourselves to be peaceful Muslams may want to take your religion back from those who have hijacked it. Otherwise, these Fanatics that you say you don't support but who you won't oppose are going to get you in trouble. They will come corrupt your sons and enslave your daughters, making another generation filled with hatred and fear. How sad and barbaric is a Religion that gives it's highest honors and accolades to those who kill the most and hate the strongest?

Yeah Islam is formed from the same stam,p as Christianity, so it is intolerant, abusive, so on and so forth. Dont gimmie this crap its tolerant and peaceful. About as much as christianity is. Like any of the middle eastern spawned religions. Monothieistic religions are all the same. Pure crap.

With any luck, christians, muslims, and jews will kill each other off. save us population problems, get rid of many other ones.

New understanding.

I believe that Christ is the son of the creater of all things....God

Lucifer is a fallen angel, mad because God gave man a soul, and knocked angels into second place.

Lucifer who is satan has been given power and time here on earth to decieve as many as he can.

Lucifer is Allah.

Islam means submission to Allah

***From "The spiritual Background of Early Islam" by E.J. Brill, Leiden, 1972.
I quote the following.

" Islam means submission to (Allah), but originally it meant that strength which characterized a desert warrior who, even when faced with the impossible odds, would fight to the death for his tribe."

Very simple, Lucifer is the desert warrior, when even faced with fighting the army of God, will fight to the death to keep his peers (angels) from being second in Gods eyes.

This story is written in the bible and Lucifer loses.

I like the way you think, She-Elf. Should I enclose a marrage proposal in a U2U or would you like a separate topic? (I'm probably kidding. Please don't feel harrassed.)

Seriously though, isn't the entire purpose of Religion to enable people to abdicate responsiblility for their own choices? The Evil that people do to each other is probably a lot easier to live with if people can make themselves believe that it was what God wanted.

Now though, here we are in the 21st Century and for a few hundred years, science has been pulling back the vail of ignorance that Religion has always used to keep the masses in fear. Religion has had to scramble hard lately to find ways to admit to having been wrong about so many things throughout history without too many people figuring out that these false "Holy" institutions never had a clue in the first place. Most Religions seem to be able to adapt but Islam apparently either can't or won't.

Yes, I believe Islam is intolorant. I feel they have to be. Like I say time and time again, Islam must oppose Western Culture if it is to survive and the spiritial leaders of Islam know it. Western Culture is based on several principles that as far as I can tell are directly opposed to some of the core Islamic values, mores, and cultural practices (status of women, seperation of church and state, value of individual human life to name the most obvious). Western Culture, pushed on the wavefront of science and technology is an irrisistable force. To not fight it is to lose to it as the USSR found out and I suspect China is begining to discover.

Religions (and govenments controlled by them) are based on emotion and unprovable assertions. It seems as if there is a direct corralation between how backward and repressive a Religion is and how strong the emotional provocations must be and how outlandish the unprovable assertions are (ex: 72 virgins. yeah, right). Western Culture likes to educate everyone. Once a people becomes educated, they are more likely to see beyond the narrow walls of their own culture, experience and beliefs. They are more likely to think their way out of or around the limits they have been deluded into placing on themselves. Of course Islam fears Western Culture. Once the fear and superstition are removed, these Islamic Leaders probably have very little else to recommend them as Leaders. Islam doesn't seem to be a very good system for running a country either since few Islamic countries seem to be very successful without a whole lot of outside influence and support.

Once again i see this crap come spewing forth from the mouth of someone who is obviously so bias its not funny... your views have been raised before by many others, and your views have been addressed before by many, i'm not going to get worked up on this coz i have nearly been banned whilst defending Islam (not FOR defending Islam, but for the what i said while defending Islam). But i
will just letyou know from what i've read your looking at Islamic states and extremists, NOT Islam as a religion. But thats a common error made by bigots so your forgiven

Oh one more thing... Why is it wrong if the Quran says the world is flat (i dont think it actually does, i'm of islamic upbringing and dotn EVER recall reading or hearing that one) dont forget christianity not only said it was but persecuted those who disagreed... that was while Islam was improving science and tech

[edit on 21-6-2004 by specialasianX]

Muslim does not mean submitter to God !!!
A Muslim is someone who submits to Islam, Not GOD
Allah isnt the Arabic word for God Either. Ilah is the Arabic word for God. The Islamic phrase "No God but Allah" is a prime example of that, “La ilaha illAllah.” A word for word translation into English would read: La [no] ilaha [god] ill [except or but] Allah [Allah]. "The important thing to note is that the word “Allah” is a name and is not the word for god. If “Allah” were the word for god, then the phrase would read, “there is no allah but allah. Clearly it does not. The Qur’an itself claims that Allah is the personal name of the Islamic god: (017.110) “Say, Call Him Allah or call Him Ar-Rahman; whatever the name you call Him, all His names are beautiful.”

Originally posted by paperclip

Originally posted by ZeroDeep



One who submits to God is automaticly regarded as a Muslim, even if the God and doctrine are different ?



Deep

If I may answer this one...
Muslim means Submitter, the one who submits to God. Qur'an doesnt differ here between nations, past, present. Anyone who submits to God is muslim regardless of a label put on him. The first submitter was Adam. All prophets are considered to be Muslims ( Submitters ) because of their devotion to God and faith. The way Muslims of today pray, submitting to God, puts them all in this group.

There is another word for religious people "mumin" meaning believer, to that counts anyone who believes in God, without actually fully devoting his life to God or practicing faith.

Just because maniacs perverse Islam does not mean it is evil. Christians during their so called "crusades" murdered many Moslems in the name of Jesus christ. Even before medevil times Christiantiy was pushed on many of nations. Where is your criticism of them? Religion is used to divide and conquer. True Islam precedes Muhammed. Women are equal and all men are seen as bretheren. I Self, Law/Lord Am Master or I Serve Lord and Man. Dont get caught up in the hype. As a Moslem I practice none of these modern Islamic tenets which are not the true foundation of ISLAM. But before you condemm one way of life (not religion) look at the crimes that have ben used in others (catholic Church etc.) Because the Crusades killed many Moslems, should we all condemm Christians? Don't be blinded by ignorance.

[edit on 6/22/2004 by MOOR45]

Originally posted by wooten123
Illimatic I need to apologize to you, I am new here and did not realize you were mentally retarded. There are hundreds of religons that pre-date Islam. You are really reaching now and not using common sense. Then again most fanatics don't use reason at all.

Originally posted by Illmatic67
Islam was the original religion. Islam is more than just a religion, it means submission. Adam submitted to God, so did Enoch and Abraham. They were all Muslim because they submitted to God in Islam.

Islam is not a new Religion. Prophet Muhammad( pbuh) was not the founder of Islam. He was in fact the Last Messenger of Islam. The word "Islam" is derived from the hebrew root " Shalom" (peace) and the aramaic "Shalem" (completion/perfection as in a Message). The full definition of Islam reflects all of these underlying meanings and can be translated " Submission to the Will of G-d in perfect harmony and accordance with the Laws of Nature". In short "Islam" is "Equilibrium". It is the balanced Din ( Way of Life). It is the Animus and the Equus. Islam is the very message that Jesus Christ (pbuh) taught . Jesus Christ taught and practiced the Religion of Ha'Shlama ( translation: Islam) and Prophet John the Baptist was an Islamic martyr.

According to the Qur'an , the Prophet Abraham(pbuh) was the first man to coin the term " Muslims" and he stated that his companions and descendents are Muslims. Similarly subseqent Prophets also used the term " Muslim" as a way of identifying themselves.

Jesus Christ referred to his disciples as "The Mushlam" and he urged others to emulate:

Jesus Christ (pbuh) using the word "Muslim" in Luke 6:40

Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo


Translation in English: "No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher."



----River

P.S: The Dead Sea Scrolls of Qumran also confirm that the righteous are known as the community that SUBMITS [ to perform Islam]


[edit on 22-6-2004 by River Euphrates]

[edit on 22-6-2004 by River Euphrates]