Scientists Not So Sure 'Doomsday Machine' Won't Destroy World

reply to post by XXXN3O


Because that is how science works. If we didn't study physics during those ten years then our knowledge wouldn't advance. You can't just jump from one plateau to another, you have to take slow climbs and gain experience.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


Im not daft, I know this but I see nothing but fear mongering to gain the public interest here.

Look at the last time. "The worlds end", "The worlds not ending", "Yes it is" and "No its not".

Everyone watched it almost.

No need for the fear, let people take interest for the right reasons not the wrong ones.

Maybe they are scared because almost nobody cares about it and sees it as a complete waste of money in hard economic times.




[edit on 28-1-2009 by XXXN3O]

Originally posted by questioningall
reply to post by TrueAmerican

 

I agree with you completely, I have thought the same thing.
What gives them the right to play God?
They have no right, they will not be learning anything miraculous.
They have no right to play with every person's life on this planet, as they are! They do not know what will happen.

I thought it was outrageous that people even supported this experiment.

It is not worth any scientific findings that may come out of it - in putting the Earth at jeopardy.

For those that dont know what this experiment does, for what could be gained from studying it, here it is-

The basic theory is this: Lets say that you wanted to know how a pocket watch worked. But you didnt have the ability to understand its complexity of construction. The LHC will basically smash the pocket watch at extremely high speed, and video tape it blowing apart. Scientists will then review the video, to see how the watch came apart, then rewind it to see how it came back together.

In this analogy, the pocket watch represents the universe. They are trying to understand the mechanism of the big bang, how our universe was created. This will then lead to more important discoveries about the nature of our universe. Things like, are there other dimensions, understanding more deeply how gravity and mass affect time/space, ect..

With this in mind, there are (forgive the pun) earth-shattering discoveries to be made from the LHC. The problem is, we have absolutely no idea what will happen when its turned on. SO, for all we know, ANY mirad of things could occur when its fired-up. Tearing a hole in time/space may not be the only thing we have to worry about.

People say that this event happens all the time in our universe, and this is mostly true. Whats not true about it is that it does not happen the way the LHC makes it happen. Particles collide at speeds faster than light all the time through our universe, but not like the LHC. The LHC cannot sustain the particles at light speed as they travel through the collider. The particles can only be brought up to light speed, but theres not enough power to sustain it. So it propells the particles in bursts.

There are too many things that are not natural about this machine, and any of these small variances from nature may create unexpected results.

They will say there is no threat, so that it will be allowed to continue, thats the only reason. This is breaking new ground in science here, and noone can say anything for certain.

But advancements are made by the individuals bold enough to try new things and take risks, not by sitting on the sidelines worrying over the reprocussions.

There is enough opinions for everyone, take your pick.

[edit on 28-1-2009 by treemanx]

I've got a serious feeling that the LHC will never become fully operational.

wink wink, nudge nudge.

On a side note. IMO it is necessary to take these chances (which are incredibly slim) to advance the species. If we don't we might as well go back to living in caves.

reply to post by treemanx


Your 'pocket watch' analogy is clever....except, once it's broken apart, the watch doesn'tneed to be re-assembled.

Of course, in the case of the 'pocket watch', the analogy falls apart once one realizes that there exists a 'watchmaker'...AND, if one could find this person, then all of the intricacies of the inner workings of the watch could be easily explained, or if not explained, at least you'd have the watchmaker in custody, so you could force him to build another watch....oh, wait! THAT's torture!!!

There is a larger analogy here, and I hate to be obvious, but sometimes one has to....

IF a being is omnipotent, then WHY would this alleged being WISH to be worshipped???

Doesn't make sense.....never has, never will.

AND, before I get flamed, I believe THIS IS an appropriate tack to take on this thread....because, a Divine presence, if it existed, would not allow the LHC to be built, IF it was likely to result in harm to Humanity.

Considering the incredible hubris of the Human Race, I look forward to the inevitable responses to this Post....

Originally posted by johnsky
Ungh....
Did you people even glance at the source?

IT'S FOX!



Wake me back up when someone credible sources the story.
At least an outlet that doesn't aspire to become a tabloid.

FOX is merely reporting on the paper by Casadio, Fabi, and Harms - which is available for free online [(.pdf)On the Possibility of Catastrophic Black Hole Growth in the Warped Brane-World Scenario at the LHC]

V. CONCLUSIONS
We have studied the evolution in time of microscopic black holes that could be produced at the LHC based on our previous paper [4] and the description of brane-world black holes given in Ref. [8]. With respect to Ref. [4], accretion has now been included in the analysis, and all of the parameters have been chosen so as to cover a fairly comprehensive range of possible outcomes. In particular, our model contains a critical mass scale, Mc, which
is related to the transition from the five-dimensional behavior, effectively described by the metric (6), and the usual four-dimensional description of a black hole. As shown in the previous Section, in particular in Tables I–III, the maximum black hole mass never reaches catastrophic size before leaving the Earth. The black hole mass remains at microscopic values for a wide range of acceptable initial conditions and for a wide range of critical masses, Mc. Indeed, in order for the black holes created at the LHC to grow at all, the critical mass should be Mc & 105 kg. This value is rather close to the maximum compatible with experimental test of Newton’s law, that is Mc ≃ 106 kg (which we further relaxed to Mc = 108 kg in our analysis). For smaller values of Mc, the black holes cannot accrete fast enough to overcome the decay rate. Furthermore, the larger Mc is taken to be, the longer a black hole takes to reach its maximum value and the less time it remains near its maximum value before exiting the Earth. We conclude that, for the RS scenario and black holes described by the metric (6), the growth of black holes to catastrophic size does not seem possible. Nonetheless, it remains true that the expected decay times are much longer (and possibly ≫ 1 sec) than is typically predicted by other models, as was first shown in Ref. [4].

(emphasis mine)

reply to post by Rren


Please look at the last sentence in the last paragraph.

Essentially it says that their conclusion is that the LHC will NOT produce a viable 'black hole' that could sustain....NOR would it consume the entire planet !!!

SO, interesting as this discussion has been....it is ultimately pointless.

Much as the knee-knocking trembling opinions prior to the first atmospheric A-Bomb tests.

Over 60 years ago, and we're still here!!!!

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Essentially it says that their conclusion is that the LHC will NOT produce a viable 'black hole' that could sustain....NOR would it consume the entire planet !!!

That's what they say ... this week. Next week it'll be ... 'oops, our math was wrong AGAIN ... So sorry we blew up all of europe.' they don't know what the hell they are doing. That's fine on a small scale. But this is big.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Essentially it says that their conclusion is that the LHC will NOT produce a viable 'black hole' that could sustain....NOR would it consume the entire planet !!!

That's what they say ... this week. Next week it'll be ... 'oops, our math was wrong AGAIN ... So sorry we blew up all of europe.'

they don't know what the hell they are doing. That's fine on a small scale. But this is big.

Erm no sorry this is now silly. Black holes have to have a certain mass to draw stuff in and become matter eating machines. These things just won't be able to hold together according to nearly all of the scientists. Even the dissenters admit the risk is absolutely minimal, as in you have more chance of winning the lottery several times in a row. The math is very very clear with a nice big safety margin.

The corrections you talk of are minor, tiny, infinitesimal. It's like kicking a ball at a 100 mile wide goal. You can miss it but the probability is pretty damn small and you can kick it off centre and still be fine.

Lets' put it this way. If you are worried about the LHC then you should go and book yourself into a hospital right this moment because the chance of you having a heart attack or stroke are greater than this thing destroying the earth. In fact never go outside ever again because you have more chance of being struck by lightning, hit by a metor (literally) or run down by a car.

If you want to live your life on such small odds of danger then you won't live much at all.

[edit on 28-1-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

reply to post by TrueAmerican

Hey there 'T.A',

Just gave you a star for being a voice of reason and common sense !

Ok, so positive results from this experiment might advance our knowledge of physics 'IF' it's successful and everything goes to plan but if there is an element of uncertainty ... then surely they should hold back until they actually understand what they are doing and eliminate any potential risks.

And if these risks hold the remotest possibility of destroying our planet and her inhabitants (us), then shouldn't we have some say in whether or not we are willing to take that risk ?

How / why do a bunch of 'white-coats' get to make that decision on behalf of the worlds population ... however great the benefits might be 'IF' it's successful ?

Woody

www.newscientist.com...

Originally posted by budski
From the article:

"We conclude that ... the growth of black holes to catastrophic size does not seem possible. Nonetheless, it remains true that the expected decay times are much longer (and possibly >> 1 second) than is typically predicted by other models," the three state in a brief paper posted at the scientific discussion Web site ArXiv.org.

source

It makes so much more sense to read the whole article and what was actually said than to rely on a sensationalist headline designed to sell more copy or attract more revenue clicks.

I should have known Budski would have the "accurate" interpretation of the articles content but then again as I read the so called budski enlightened version I see nothing we SHOULDN'T BE alarmed about.

The article say and I quote

"We conclude that ... the growth of black holes to catastrophic size does not seem possible. Nonetheless, it remains true that the expected decay times are much longer (and possibly >> 1 second) than is typically predicted by other models," the three state in a brief paper posted at the scientific discussion Web site ArXiv.org."

Yes it would seem that Science and Scientist are changing their minds these days as often as I change my underwear and that is everyday.

Since first reading the many different explanations over the years given here for such things as mechanisms for natural selection and evolution etc, it seems this too is just one of those areas of Science we just will never really know about and is probably better left unknown.

What is so interesting about this is the idea of the God Particle. It wouldn't surprise me if this wasn't just more of the push to eliminate God and prove once and for all that God doesn't exist. I just don't think we should risk meeting him in person before we should by natural causes.

I think that would be especially bad for those Scientists who dissed him in the first place. lol

Well everyone knows that science is nothing more than an organized system of ignorance, therefore it will only be a matter of time before they do screw up and destroy the world or some part of it so to hell with them if they destroy the world I'm gonna kick their butts all over purgatory or nothingness or whatever happens

These scientists, of which I am one a supporter and spent years in uni studying Environmental Engineering, are working under the concept of traditional Physics, but trying to look and understand the new Physics by doing so. This area is oo complex and specailised I have no idea of the real risks and maths involved, but I a;armed by a few things, namely some of the credentials and fears of some in this field, and th fact that it is playing with much huger energies in a realm we dont understand yet not even close to it.

E=MC2 is still used in most engineering projects, same as newtons laws, though we know through Non Locality that faster than light is possible.

Non Locality contains a host of unknown factors, energies, drivers and forces.

But we can only do our science, build these machines within the universe we observe and manipulate with very very limited knowledge of what is happening at these very very high energy situations in such a small amount of space time.

But wait there we don't even know the truth of space time, as it is proven to have other characteristics other than whet we until now understand by non locality and such like.

Time is linear right, as some have said observe this happening than rewind the tape to understand it, but at the quantum level in fact time is not linear....

Yes of course we should all call everyone who is concerned about this a doomsayer and Neathandrel.

Yes we can truts this to be fine, its vastly complex, playing with energies in ridicuously small peices of time and space, which borders this unknown and strange realm of the quantum world, no one will make a mistake?

mmmm Yep Right:

Probably the most glaring, and much hyped error was made during the development of NASA's Mars Climate Orbiter. In 1999, just before orbital insertion, a navigation error sent the satellite into an orbit 100 km lower than its intended 150 km altitude above the planet. This error was caused by one of the most expensive measurement incompatibilities in space exploration history. One of NASA's subcontractors, Lockheed Martin, used Imperial units instead of NASA-specified metric units.

Universe Today

Lets just hope the much more complex design of this has no human error eh?

Because time goes in one direction, all is made or particles and the number of dimensions and affect of manipulating the Quatum realm, of which non locality has shown is connected to the rest of the universe and everything in it is a chance worth taking before we understand it properly.

Witches float on water because ducks do to eh? in the words of Monty Python


Kind Regards,

Elf

I have been known to tinker with some of my strange creations to "see if they work" and I'll blow a fuse or throw a breaker from time to time.... But I kinda twitch my eye at some of the leading scientist saying we got this covered...And then flipping a switch and just blowing a fuse or in this case a cooling part....But when they start second guessing their work...i.e. math.... Thats when I say maybe we shouldn't touch that red button....

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Rren

 

Please look at the last sentence in the last paragraph.

Essentially it says that their conclusion is that the LHC will NOT produce a viable 'black hole' that could sustain....NOR would it consume the entire planet !!!

You mean the one I emphasized? Yeah, I saw it. The condescension and extra exclamation points weren't necessary; I agree with you.



[edit on Wed Jan 28 2009 by Rren]

Alright I really do believe that running experiments on the LHC is something that would benefit everyone. I truly believe that nothing is going to happen and that the advancements we make are going to be great. Everyone seems to be saying how they are playing God and all but they fail to realize that we wouldn't have been able to concieve the idea of the LHC without His allowing it anyway. You can't turn your back on such an oppurtunity because some people are afraid of something that will not happen anyway. Think about the possibility of finding the key to the creation of the universe. To understand how all matter came to exist. Would this put us in confrontation with our creator or bring us closer together? I believe it would bring us closer and form a more understandable relationship. Now I know we can never dream of being on the same wavelength as God but we can catch glimpses of His brilliance. I don't believe He opposes our quest to understand Him better.

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
Umm, can I ask something?

What in the hell gives any scientist the right to play with the very existence of earth, and some 6 billion lives? If there is any doubt WHATSOEVER that the earth can be destroyed due to this, there is no way, NO WAY this should ever be allowed to happen. PERIOD. It's like wtf.

And there clearly is doubt. If they insist on proceeding with the big test, they ought to be drawn and quartered if need be to STOP this insanity. Some things YOU JUST DON'T PLAY WITH, no matter how bad their stinking curiosity is.

[edit on Tue Jan 27th 2009 by TrueAmerican]

I am SO glad you are just noise on the internet.

Please re read your comment and then insert ANY major tecnological innovation of the last 1000 years.


Sail off the end of the earth? How irresponsible!

Originally posted by treemanx

Originally posted by questioningall

 

I agree with you completely, I have thought the same thing.
What gives them the right to play God?
They have no right, they will not be learning anything miraculous.

For those that dont know what this experiment does, for what could be gained from studying it, here it is-

The basic theory is this: Lets say that you wanted to know how a pocket watch worked. But you didnt have the ability to understand its complexity of construction. The LHC will basically smash the pocket watch at extremely high speed, and video tape it blowing apart. Scientists will then review the video, to see how the watch came apart, then rewind it to see how it came back together.
[edit on 28-1-2009 by treemanx]

treemanx, That was AWESOME! One of the best analogies I have ever read, thank you.



Oh and questioningall.. you have ZERO credibility bro after your "earthquake" BS. Just be glad I left you alone after I realized talking to you was a complete waste of time... you are a true doomer.

Please, let's just stay on topic and keep personal opinions about other members to ourselves.

Thanks.