Vatican attacks US abortion move

reply to post by Mdv2


I'm not sure why anyone cares what the Vatican thinks or says, but apparently it's this whole big thing. But they absolutely have the right to condemn Obama, his decisions or whatever they want.

What's interesting is that this move will likely decrease the number of abortions worldwide because removing this ban (called the Mexico City Policy) supports more organizations to provide birth control assistance, which actually increases the distribution of condoms and other forms of birth control.

Opposition to this move is simply a principled stand against freedom of choice, and not a logical desire to lessen abortion in the world.

Source

Critics of the Mexico City Policy refer to it as the "global gag rule", arguing that, in addition to reducing the overall funding provided to particular NGOs, it closes off their access to USAID-supplied condoms and other forms of contraception.[12] This, they argue, negatively impacts the ability of these NGOs to distribute birth control, leading to a downfall in contraceptive use and from there to an increase in the rates of unintended pregnancies and abortion.

[edit on 25-1-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by StevenDye
reply to post by Mdv2

 

I am Christian, but non Catholic. I rather dislike Catholics...

I am anti-abortion though...I see it a murder and should only be used to prevent the suffering of the baby if it is to be born with some terrible deffect.

I'm an ex-catholic. I don't dislike anyone -
although I'm not buying into the idea of any religion.
I see us all as finding our way the best we know how.
The human race has good days - and horrible days.

Your avatar is a military man with a gun -
you see abortion as murder.
I see war as murder.

reply to post by FlyersFan


You don't have to tell me every religion did it, of course they did. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of their stance on the subject. But hey, hypocrisy is what religion and most people thrive on.

In an unnamed diocese in Africa (Reuters, March 21, 2001) a Mother Superior had complained to her bishop that parish priests were continually sexually abusing her nuns. Finally, after 20 of them became pregnant and she demanded a stop to it, the bishop did what any good bishop would do—he demoted her.

Yes Reuters is an unreliable source.

The record for the most simultaneously pregnant nuns in a single Catholic community stands at an impressive 29.

They tried to get the Nuns to use Birth Control, which is even funnier.

According to the Kansas City Star, AIDS has claimed the lives of some 400-800 American priests.

Proof that celibacy causes AIDS.

Dallas Morning News investigation revealed that 103 of 170 Roman Catholic diocese bishops and all eight archdiocese cardinals had been somehow involved in covering up sex crimes and proliferating the problem.

Yes, that is a very small percentage indeed.

To illustrate the surprising scope of sexual activity and abuse amongst Catholic clergy in America, the 1990 Doyle-Moulton-Peterson Report, headed by Canon lawyer Fr. Thomas Doyle cites the following round numbers:

Of 47,000 American priests . . .

12,000 sexually involved with adult women

6,000 sexually involved with adult men

3,000 sexually abusing minors

These numbers do not include paternity suits (Deadbeat Fathers for fathers) numbering in the thousands, priest-nun rape, impregnated nuns, and multiple incidences of forced abortion.

Sounds like quite the party.

Yes, the Church is a bastion of morality to be sure. I agree it is fine for the church or anyone to express their views, however it becomes wrong when you try to legislate your views and force others to abide by them. If the Pope doesn't "publicly" like abortion, thats fine. If people try to take his words and force them upon others through legislation, that is where the problem lies. The Pope would do better to ask all his followers to adopt a child. If every Christian would adopt one child, then there would be no orphans anywhere in the world, and every mother thinking about whether to abort, or to give their child up for adoption, might have an easier choice to make. Trying to legislate abortion out of existence will never work. People will always find a way and in the long run, more people will suffer.

Remember, only GOD can judge, not the Pope. So, lets leave it up to God, and he can sort it out when people arrive at the Pearly Gates. In the meantime, I want to know when the next Vatican rave is going to be held, because those folks know how to swing!

reply to post by Terapin

LINK? Thank you.

Originally posted by Terapin
Remember, only GOD can judge, not the Pope.

Religious leaders of churches - all churches - have an obligation to inform the people of that faith what their religion teaches and why.

Freedom of religion. Freedom of speech.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
And Planned Parenthood is making a fortune off these people.
They make money from those going in for abortion.
They make money selling the body parts of the dead children to drug companies for experiments.

It's a money making conspiracy wrapped in the sugar coating of the words 'choice'.

I really freaking hate disinformation, especially when it gets tossed into every thread on a topic.

Planned Parenthood does not make money from abortion.

3% of the medical services provided by Planned Parenthood are abortions. The other 97% are not – they are various services provided largely to women who do not have the insurance coverage required to afford routine medical care elsewhere – screening for cervical cancer, STDs, breast cancer; treatment for STDs and other gynecologic issues; birth control advice and provision.
Source

The medical services of Planned Parenthood cost the organization $588.3 million in 2006.
Source

The income from the medical services (that includes abortion and all the other 97% of the services) was $356.9 million.

There was also $56 million in "Other Operating Revenue" – which if your accusation of selling fetal tissue were true would include that.

So, at best Planned Parenthood loses $175 million annually through its medical programs.

Talk about raking it in hand over foot

I've provided links to screenshots of the Planned Parenthood financials reports, which are available in PDF form at their website.

__________________________________________________

Aside from the absurd (and offensive, since I've provided that information in one of your threads as well) disinformation, I've been starring your posts.

I don't agree that abortion is murder, and I am thrilled that Obama is taking action to reverse the unconstitutional policies of the previous administration.

But I fully support the Vatican's right to have its say, and the right of Catholic Americans to listen. The separation of Church and State does not mean that churches don't have a right to an opinion about legal matters – it means that the state has no right to an opinion about religious matters. The onus is on the state to make sure that its laws remain secular, not on the churches to keep their mouths shut on issues of morality and law.

Topic of this thread should be

"Vatican Pleased with Obama. Please stop killing our rape victims!!!


Screw the Vatican and there backwards crap rules.. History has shown time and again that they will ALWAYS be at least 100 years behind the rest of the world .

Hey holocaust denier . Were sry you can come home now .. you know as long as you don't support abortion .. .

They supported the holocaust . But not abortion what a crock!

BTW:EDIT: The Vatican isn't in the US .. So freedom of speech and OUR rules don't apply here . Same AS our rules OBVIOUSLY don't affect them . As ABORTION IS LEGAL!!!
Cant have it both ways SORRY!

[edit on 25-1-2009 by d11_m_na_c05]

reply to post by FlyersFan


As I stated earlier, everyone is entitled to expressing their own opinion. Freedom of Religion also means Freedom FROM religion. So long as no one tries to force others to follow religions dogma all is fine. Obamas funding of overseas Family Planning, will reduce the number of unwanted children through education, birth control, and yes, sadly abortion. The Popes instance in celibacy is proven to be a failure. I am not PRO abortion but I do believe in giving everyone the right to decide for them selves and the right to access any medical treatment they choose.

As for links, perhaps it would be better for you to do your own research on the subject of the Churches hi-jinks. There is a great deal of creditable information available, including that which I pointed to earlier. You can even go to the sources I mentioned. I will get you started off with this: To Enable Healing- 'Sexual Trauma and The Church' This was a Church sponsored conference, and the article is full of plenty of details.

[edit on 25/1/09 by Terapin]

from dictionary.com...
sentient condition or character; capacity for sensation or feeling

from wikipedia...
Sentience is the ability to feel or perceive subjectively.

As has been noted, Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion do not apply to the Vatican. In fact:

Vatican Says Freedom of Expression Does Not Mean Offending Religion

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- The Vatican, commenting on a series of satirical newspaper cartoons that have outraged Muslims, said freedom of expression does not include the right to offend religious sentiments.

As if religion is some "special case".

Vatican Stops Accepting Italian Law

The Vatican recently announced the reversal of its 80-year-old policy of automatically accepting Italian laws that were not egregiously incompatible with church doctrine. From now on, it no longer automatically accepts Italian laws as its own, but instead will review the laws individually.

One reason given for this change was the inordinacy and inconsistency of Italian laws. But another reason was the incompatibility of Italian law with life issues such as abortion, euthanasia and same-sex marriages.
...
One aspect of the Vatican’s new legislation that is causing great controversy is its willingness to reject Italian treaties and international law.

Oh, boy!

The Vatican makes its own laws. And while they have the right to condemn Obama, they don't have the moral ground, IMO, and their opinion is fairly meaningless regarding the laws and policies of the US.

[edit on 25-1-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]

Well god forbid we allow religious belief to cloud common sense. I mean, that's never happened before????

Why does the Vatican think it's they're job to "save" everybody?

Come on now, this issue should have been resolved DECADES ago. People should have the right to choice, whether it's YOUR belief or not.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
I knew it wouldn't be long before the Vatican had to say some such nonsense. If anyone advocates letting the people exercise their own free will and make their own choices, you can bet that the Vatican will be following closely along complaining about how it's wrong.

You miss the point. The point is that the US govt will be collecting our tax money to pay for abortions overseas. I am against abortion, and my money is being taken from me for this use although I consider it morally wrong. There is nothing wrong with the church voicing its concern - it is actually responsible to, think of the Catholics in the US who are being forced to contribute to something they feel is so morally wrong?

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Come on now, this issue should have been resolved DECADES ago. People should have the right to choice, whether it's YOUR belief or not.

This isn't a question of right to choice. That WAS resolved decades ago - look up Roe v. Wade. This is a question of who pays for it. Why should I pay for it? That money could be used for toilet paper in a Detroit School and that would be a bettter use of it.

reply to post by slicobacon


Just cause you don't like it doesn't mean that you don't pay for it

You pay for the white phosphorus bombs that Israel dropped on the Children of Gaza, burning them alive. You pay for the secret torture prisons the CIA uses in the 'war on error.' You pay for Wall Street executive bonuses. You pay for illegal wiretapping.

If you don't like abortion; I ask you, have you adopted a child yet? When you deny someone the right to choose, you must then follow up by offering them an alternative and personally taking responsibility for your choice. Or are you one of those people who states, "you cant get an abortion because it is wrong, but I don't want your child either?" Abandoned children are suffering all across the globe. There are no Church funded orphanages in my city, although there are orphans in need. The Church will fund propaganda against abortion but why wont they fund the children?

As has been pointed out before, Obamas funding will in effect Prevent abortions, simply because much of the funding will go towards preventive education and contraceptives. No one wants to promote abortion, but denying anyone a full choice of options is wrong.

May I ask who cares about what the Vatican thinks?

I'm just glad that they're condemning Obama. Why? We've had a President for the last 8 years who thought he could talk to God. He went to the pope several times and they established somewhat of a relationship.

I'm glad Obama has finally pissed the pope off. That way without the pope influencing our President we can finally have somewhat of a separation between church and state.

I'm pro-abortion. A women should be able to choose to abort her child if she needs to. Sometimes you know situations don't work out as they want to.

Just a reminder that.

Religions work through mass control of a populas through fear and redemption if they follow a set religions rules.

If people think freely for themselves then religion loses control and therefore becomes weaker.

Religions like people to follow there rules and do not like people to be able to think for themselves.

reply to post by StevenDye

This world is based around making your opinion known, and doing your best to make your opinion be what happens.

Perhaps that is why this world is so screwed up.

Christianity has had 2000 years to resolve the abortion issue, it failed completely. Time is up for religions, butt out of other peoples lives if, they'd done so before, we may well not have issues like abortion to deal with.

[edit on 25-1-2009 by moocowman]

Alot of ATSers despise the Catholic Church, but while many here are discussing the NWO and the Global Banking Empire many Catholic are openly acting against these powers with social credit and backing monetary reform

www.michaeljournal.org...

many in the Catholic Church view the NWO as the satanic power that will usher in the time of the AC and the destruction of Rome, and even the current pope has shown by the name he took aligning himself with the prophecies of St Malachy, that he believes the time is near and that he will be the second last pope in history
“Gloria olivae’ Benedict

www.catholic-pages.com...

the infiltration of the Church by the NWO illuminate masons is well documented and it saddens my much the evil they have done while in the Church, all i can say for those evil monsters that pretend to be Catholic priests is that they should read the words of Christ
" he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the deepest ocean."

I believe the Church will never shift on abortion and other moral teachings no matter how violent and evil the world becomes, even if threatened with its destruction

As a person in a troubled world i can see the rationale for "depopulation', but I must ask is overpopulation the real problem or is it that the few greedy individuals horde all the money and recourses for their own ambitions and intentions? Leaving the many to live in oppressed squalor
but the majority of abortions are in affluent western countries, who apparently have to import people from third world nations because of labor shortages
if people cannot see abortion as national and cultural suicide for western nations well then your already intoxicated on the UN BS propaganda and your once peaceful western nation will soon be an Islamic war zone.

as a Catholic though i can see the madness in a mentality of "if its unwanted then its not wrong to kill it"
Society has already given in to this mentality, and even though abortion on grounds of compassion is what led the West to institute the act it has become abortion on the grounds of convenience
The numbers speak for themselves, over 50 million abortions every year, over half a billion in thirty years of the practice, more life destroyed by abortion then life destroyed in every war in history!

If this mentality becomes universally acceptable without opposition, where does it stop?

Elderly, disabled, disadvantaged, the sick (be it physical or mental)

Why not destroy these unproductive, inconveniences?
If the practice of destroying human life because it is not wanted becomes government instituted it wont be long until something reminiscent of the Hitler’s NAZI Germany or Stalin’s USSR become emergent… actually it already has become government instituted so not long now…
All the vehement supporters of abortion would be only to willing to support the destruction of any group, institution or persons that point out the evil they commit, your UN NWO puppets good luck with your insane murderess government that will only turn on you when you become an inconvenience.

reply to post by Notroh est


Funny how you refer the the church as having "moral" stances on issues like abortion and what not.

And why would our country be turned into an Islamic war zone? Are you saying that all Islamic countries and people cause war?

To tell you the truth the western world is the biggest "terrorist" organization on the planet, we just have this illusion that we do it to better the human race.

Nobody is right or wrong, and nobody should dictate or be told what they can or cannot do with they're own body. Abortions should be a choice and no about of religious dogma or belief can change that.

I'm sorry i realize my post could have been seen as an attack on your religion, it is not, simply a reflection of my views on the church as a whole, not at the individual level.

[edit on 1/25/2009 by tothetenthpower]

A binding vote is to be held to ban abortions. Anyone wishing to vote YES to the ban, must first adopt a child before they can vote. No adoption=no right to vote yes. You must agree to cover all costs of razing the child and care for all it's needs for life, healthy baby or not, and you can get no assistance from the state.

I wonder how many Christians would step up to the plate. In Theory they would all say yes, but in reality the number of Christians who reach out to needy children is far below those who scream for making abortion illegal. Celibacy does not work. Denying access to contraception does not work. Purity pledges are proven not to lower the rates of teen sexuality and often lead to ignorance about sexuality and reproduction.

I wonder what kind of person would deny a womans right to choose, free from religious dogma, and tell her to give the child up for adoption, and then refuse to adopt a child themselves. Hypocrite?

Name ONE orphanage that is funded by the Vatican? The Vatican is quite wealthy after all.

I have worked with Orphans and have never seen the Pope do anything for them.