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The Abortion Paradox

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posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 07:17 AM
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reply to post by Irish M1ck
 


a fetus inside a womans body is part of the womans body, and therefore not subject to anyone elses control. to give power and control, (over a womans body), where that power and control originates from a a mythical being (god), is archaic and barbaric, and should be outlawed from civilized society. this is why we no longer burn women at the stake for believeing in witchcraft.




posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 07:24 AM
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Originally posted by Lasheic
reply to post by Aermacchi
 





BOTH of you are missing my point and that is that this thread HAS NO POINT


The Seinfeildein Paradox. A paradox in which a point of a thread is argued in a thread about paradoxes that has no point.

Beyond the obligatory fluff, I already agreed with that analysis in my first post on the first page in this thread. I'm sort of beyond the point of caring if there is a point to the thread at this point.

Get the point?


Yeah I read that. Nice post but I think this last one you made makes a better point is as much as I agree with the last part.

I like you am beyond waiting for mick to get around to making a point or as you say caring anymore



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 07:27 AM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

Click here for more information.



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 08:05 AM
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Originally posted by Irish M1ck
... or are you just stupid?


Name calling is a demonstration of the inability to make a valid point that stands on it's own merits. The one insulting therefore much create for him/herself an appearance of being on a 'higher plane' than the rest of us 'common folk'. All the best with your communication in other aspects of your life.



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 08:08 AM
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Originally posted by jimmyx
a fetus inside a womans body is part of the womans body, and therefore not subject to anyone elses control. to give power and control, (over a womans body),


Having power doesn't give someone the right to abuse it...or are you for dictatorships, slavery, and rape as well? In all four cases, someone else's life is at stake.

[edit on 16-1-2009 by saint4God]



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 08:50 AM
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reply to post by jimmyx
 


Ahhh...rational thought. And at a time where I was absolutely sure there was none of that left in humanity. Way to go! I'm giving you a star for that post of yours



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 10:38 AM
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post removed for serious violation of ATS Terms & Conditions



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 10:51 AM
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**** STOP IT *****


RIGHT NOW.


One more from anyone and you will be Post Banned !



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 12:48 PM
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reply to post by TasteTheMagick
 


Your non-exsistence is an assumption ..

The death of your brother/sister is a fact



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 01:11 PM
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reply to post by pilot70
 


How is it an assumption? Someone's entire life is changed, yet that stays constant?

Why would that stay constant when everything else is different?



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 04:35 PM
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reply to post by saint4God
 


I made a valid point, many, many times. I have discussed it with many people, but he has an inability to argue.

What he does is say, "No, you are wrong". Never says why, he just says, "you're wrong". Then he throws in an insult, then he says, "Even if you're not wrong, so what?"

He never actually takes a stance, supports with reason or evidence, or actually provides a post that is worth something.

Now I may get warned by the mods, that's fine. I don't care. I just hope they take note of the fact that this guy's posts are, by definition, useless.

I have made it perfectly clear that if they let him continue to follow me around, barrage me with personal insults, and continue to fail at making a point, I am perfectly willing to get banned rather than take his garbage.

Some people say rise above it, I say beat them at their own game.



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 06:15 PM
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reply to post by Irish M1ck
 


I will just make my points in this thread.

this abortion paradox can really be applied to absolutely anything.

"If mom didn't have that abortion I might not be here, or dad might not be alive, or our we might not have any other siblings"

Is thinking that If I take one single instance from the past and change it even a little such as having an abortion or not, then things would be different possibly much different today.

Ok......What if mom didn't buy that car? What if Dad divorced mom? What if during that Christmas eve ice skating, mom broker her leg?

Would things be the same as the are today? Would you exist?
Ummmmm...who knows really?

And that's just it, if you tweaked anything, the chain of events would be altered all together. I mean this thread is about our inability to know if things would be the way the are, but the event is abortion....
Who knows, maybe things would be very similar if by looking back the mother didn't have an abortion, maybe the events would be in a much different order, and you would still exist....

The only thing for certain is that you eliminate an experience through abortion, so you definitely throw one possibility out the window, which is the life of the aborted fetus.


Originally posted by Irish M1ck
But it wouldn't be you. If your mother had an abortion before you were born, had she chosen differently, you wouldn't exist. She could have more kids, but that kid would NEVER be you.


Again, you put the word abortion in this thread to honestly imply a case of better or worse. But as soon as someone says something about abortion being worse, Its not on topic?

what difference does it make? If something was changed in the past (even before my parents met) I might not exist.
Seriously, If mothers did not have abortions, the only thing I'm being told is that there is a guarantee for life
Does significance change if it was you or not? If I could change anything in the past I am uncertain how things would have played out right?

I think a question that should be asked is, what makes anyone's life significant?

The paradox is "abortions deny life so life can exist" = ignorance IMO.

edit: wording






[edit on 16-1-2009 by juveous]



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 06:31 PM
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Originally posted by jimmyx
a fetus inside a womans body is part of the womans body, and therefore not subject to anyone elses control. to give power and control, (over a womans body), where that power and control originates from a a mythical being (god), is archaic and barbaric, and should be outlawed from civilized society. this is why we no longer burn women at the stake for believeing in witchcraft.


So it’s ok right before birth to choose whether the child lives or dies? The mom can give the Cesar thumbs up or down.



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 06:37 PM
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Originally posted by Irish M1ck
I did. I am. Had my mother not had an abortion, she would not have attended the University of North Carolina, she would not have met my father, and even if by some small chance they did meet, the odds of the same sperm making me is so small that it is barely existent.

She may have had other kids, but it wouldn't have been me or my sister. And while you may prefer that I not exist, I am sure there are many who share your views on life that wouldn't exist either.



My main question that no one will answer is why pick abortion as what influences the future when every single action changes it into infinite possibilities?



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 08:57 PM
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Originally posted by Xtrozero

My main question that no one will answer is why pick abortion as what influences the future when every single action changes it into infinite possibilities?


EXACTLY! This has been my point through this entire thread and like you, no one answered. Perhaps it is to prolong the threads longevity as the answer could very easily bring it to a fast conclusion unless we are missing something?

Here are three seprate posts all saying words to the effect yours does


Originally posted by Aermacchi
How do YOU know people are alive today BECAUSE of abortion?
Name someone who is alive because of an abortion and prove it is because of the abortion without speculation


Again:


Originally posted by Aermacchi
you simply can't know what she might have done or not done or how anything would have all worked out different.


Just to name a few:


Originally posted by Aermacchi
we can say the same thing about many aspects of our lives that would have made things turn out different. The fact that if your mom used an IUD or had they used a condom would have had another pointless outcome or maybe had she run out of gas that day she met your dad, I mean really what is your point?



in my own defense and among the two or three threads where I have a dialogue with this threads creator, had I known THIS one was open to anyone but me, I would have refrained rather than be seen as following anyone.

Like you extrozero, I have asked the same question you have only to have the op take this wrench in the gears of his theory, personally as a personal assault and told my posts were useless among other things unsubstantiated. I, like you, have offered counter points to the OP like those I listed above which are also along the same line of thinking as yours only to be told,,, well, you saw it.

Since your question is very similar to my own arguments I can only hope you fair better than I without the rant and profile. I am afraid that I am too timid at this point to say anything more so am rooting for ya getting your question answered because unless we are missing something,, I just don't see how this theory can't be debunked. You may remember in the movie "Back to the future" while they tried to change the outcome of history by altering a specific event, it was what seemed small insignificant things they did that made it so hard to have the same desired outcome from where they originally thought they would end up.

Good Luck my friend







[edit on 16-1-2009 by Aermacchi]



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 10:42 PM
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reply to post by juveous
 


Well, I don't see how that applies. No one protests you buying that car. No one is constantly standing outside of car dealerships harassing you as you enter. It's not even a valid comparison.

But you are right, and I am glad you agree that certain things are life altering. One of those things, of course, is having a child. So if you believe that many decisions change our lives, then you agree that having an abortion can bring about a new future and creation of different lives.

I just don't see what is so hard to understand about it. I am not arguing that abortion is good and we should all go get one, but I am saying that for many who have had abortions, new life was created that wouldn't have existed otherwise.

What's wrong with that?


"abortions deny life so life can exist"


Call it ignorance if you want, but I bet you've been friends with or know someone who literally wouldn't exist if their parents had not chosen abortion. I don't care if you care, and I don't care if you agree.

It's not about making abortion okay, it is just a fact. And that's the paradox, people claim it destroys life, but it also creates life (and apparently you agree since you agree that certain decisions change our lives).

reply to post by Xtrozero
 


Because that's the issue that causes people to have eggs thrown at them, but you are right, there are many other things that change the way our lives go which affects who lives on this Earth.

reply to post by Aermacchi
 


That's not what he said at all. He said why pick abortion and not something else. You were still trying to deny that having a baby will change the way someone goes through life... which I have no idea how you can even begin to support that.

And this thread is perfectly fine for you to be in if you want to argue. I don't really enjoy this style of argument:


but she decided to kill it because it cramped her lifestyle or whatever the reason was


If you had said that about my mom to me in person...


Seeing that you make being on ATS somewhat of a career, the trade off for your existence to be possible may have been her own biggest compromise.


You come into my thread and you start talking all sorts of trash. I can do that with you, but I prefer not to. Did you want to say, "How does that justify abortion?" If so... say it!

There is no need to drag the argument down to, "Nuh uh, you're wrong, your mom kills babies because it cramps her lifestyle, and you have no life".

So if you want to discuss something with me, that's fine. I love arguing and I don't mind being proved wrong if you can get me to accept it, but that's not the way to your going to be able to do it.

[edit on 1/16/2009 by Irish M1ck]



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 01:41 AM
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Originally posted by Irish M1ck


That's not what he said at all.


I beg to differ mick and anyone reading my posts would have to see that BOTH xtrozero and myself are placing the focus of our inquiry on why you think it HAS to be the event of the abortion as the deciding criteria in your theory. He asks why does it have to be the abortion and I ask to PROVE it has to be the abortion when any number of other events could have made any number of differences suggesting since it could be postulated ONLY by speculation making the argument pointless as it has no basis of fact.

You can't possibly know, as you insist, your life or who ever it is would or wouldn't have changed in any more or any less a significant way to say unequivocally that you or anyone else for that matter is alive BECAUSE of an abortion. Is it possible? Yes but we will never know it is anything MORE than JUST a POSSIBILITY. The only way we could is to go back in time, talk your mother out of it and see if their isn't enough allowances for all the other people, places and things to still happen.

EXAMPLE : Single Woman gets abortion in her second week of pregnancy, she goes to work taking the bus so she can be there by 9:00 am. She sees the same handsome fella that takes the same route she does only on this day he strikes up a conversation, they have always been hot for each other so they start dating and on third date he makes a move to have sex with her and he succeeds in getting lucky. In no time he falls in love and like a lot of shotgun marriages back then, he finds out he got her pregnant then gets married. A year later during their ritual Friday night love making they have another child and say this time it is you or you could have been the first one.

Now same scenario only THIS time the guy on the bus starts meets on the same route, asks her out not knowing she missed her last period and is two weeks pregnant. They have always been hot for each other so they start dating and on third date he makes a move to have sex with her and he succeeds in getting lucky.

Like many woman living before the advent of DNA testing and the Maury Povich show, she leads husband to think it is his kid we know this happens a lot and many woman had secrets like this and guys would often marry the girl to honor her name. Kid is born a year later during that same Friday night love making and providing her menstrual cycle is pretty regular, chances are the same second pregnancy could happen only THIS time husband get in a fender bender and hurts his back so they forgo the sex until Sunday morning, skipping church.

Lo and behold she is pregnant again only it wasn't because she got an abortion that THIS kid was born although he might think so if he knew the truth but the fact still remains is this kid was born because Dad had a car accident so that Sundays sperm race winner got the brass ring in moms egg rather than Fridays. There are so many variables like this it is too numerous to mention but the fact that there are and the fact that you, like the kid in the scenario couldn't possibly know ALL the ramifications that may be the REAL reason you were born and not just because of an abortion.




He said why pick abortion and not something else. You were still trying to deny that having a baby will change the way someone goes through life... which I have no idea how you can even begin to support that.


He singled out the Abortion only component I asked you to prove the abortion only component both of us trying to get you to see the same flaw in your theory.



And this thread is perfectly fine for you to be in if you want to argue. I don't really enjoy this style of argument:


You mean the kind that someone proves your theory flawed?


but she decided to kill it because it cramped her lifestyle or whatever the reason was


Yes, Mick, cold as that sounds, that is what one does when they have an abortion, they kill the baby. I know the terminology may differ from "kill" to "terminate" "abort" or "Baby" "early stage human" to "uterine tissue" "fetus" "embryo" "medical tissue" etc. This is done to make the decision to kill ones own flesh and blood and by the grace of God there go I, a much more sterile experience. It is interesting to note that woman who want to see the pregnancy to term but suffer a miscarriage, refer to it as "losing the "baby"". I have never to this day heard anyone who wanted to keep their baby that miscarried, say they lost the fetus.

As for those who chose abortion and to bring back into context your use of quote mining my post, she may have had a reason like money or for some, career and in some rare cases, to save the life of the mother, but all of these are cramps to our lifestyle that woman decide are either worthy of making this decision.

My calling it what it is in what one can only assume is a hypothetical situation was in direct response to the premise of your argument. The meaning you place on that hypothetical example must be why you use it as an excuse to say the following:




If you had said that about my mom to me in person...


is that a threat Mick? said what about your mom mick? May I remind you that YOU were the one telling us your Mom had an abortion. I said nothing to insult you or her other than the facts you gave and any number of reasons that cramped her lifestyle so much it was an imperative.

was it not? I mean I have no idea do I? So quit putting my quotes into such a context to paint me in such a light. I assure you I meant no disrespect other than what you imagined.



Did you want to say, "How does that justify abortion?" If so... say it!


How does WHAT justify abortion? Mick, you lost me. Ok I see, you are being presumptuous again. Mick if I wanted to say it like that,, I WOULD but that isn't what I was saying and is the reason why I didn't say it like you imagine the "real meaning" must be.


You come into my thread and you start talking all sorts of trash. I can do that with you, but I prefer not to.


I'm sorry Mick but I disagree and while you say you can do that but you prefer not to, then,,

why ARE you?



[edit on 17-1-2009 by Aermacchi]



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 06:52 AM
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reply to post by TasteTheMagick
 



Actually it's more like this 3 people (you,your brother,your unborn sibling) minus 1(your unborn sibling) = 2, (3-1=2), it's not negative one (unborn sibling) =2 (you and your brother) (-1=2) that's not mathematically possible.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 07:02 AM
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Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
reply to post by saint4God
 


This isn't true, the two that came after wouldn't have existed if the one hadn't died in the first place. We're not -1. We were until the two were created. Now it's +1 if you want to be mathematical about it.


Actually it's more like this 3 people (you,your brother,your unborn sibling) minus 1(your unborn sibling) = 2, (3-1=2) not negative one (your unborn sibling) = 2, (-1=2) that's not mathematically possible.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 08:16 AM
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Originally posted by Irish M1ck
Call it ignorance if you want, but I bet you've been friends with or know someone who literally wouldn't exist if their parents had not chosen abortion. I don't care if you care, and I don't care if you agree.


Yes there are people I know that, if they didn't have an abortion then a significant other I know would not exist, but that is wishful thinking, The fact of the matter is I cannot know that.


It's not about making abortion okay, it is just a fact. And that's the paradox, people claim it destroys life, but it also creates life (and apparently you agree since you agree that certain decisions change our lives).


yes, It can be a direct effect for others to exist, abortion can provide an alternate situation where life can still exist but in a more "prepared" way.

But that is unknown. I whole heartily agree that if someone isn't prepared to have a child, they shouldn't have one, but an abortion does not guarantee that another child will come. It is a gamble with life. how can you say that in the unknown future, there will be another shot for life? It's just an assumption, because people are born everyday, and the effects in time that lead up to that birth could be anything, even the decision of previous abortions.

Lets say a woman gets knocked up 5 times, and she has an abortion all 5 times because she was not ready, or she did not want to continue birth for whatever reasons. Her decision could or could not have created more or equal amount of life to exist, but why make those decisions before even knowing if that is true of false? If that decision is made because the mother actually thinks there will be another shot for life, Just ask if she is certain, and the answer will be no. Her life hasn't gone according to plan once, because she has an unwanted pregnancy, That's probably a good indicator that you don't know if you will have another chance to have a baby.






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