The Abortion Paradox

reply to post by Nameless Hussy


That's a pretty amazing story.

Originally posted by Nameless Hussy
molecules of liquid love flowing through my lungs and veins, bathing every cell of my being.

Good ole opiates.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
reply to post by Razimus

 

You completely missed the point of the thread. Please work on your reading comprehension. Again, I am not sure you guys are understanding me so I will clarify again:

There are people who would not be alive today if it was not for abortion. That is a paradox.

[edit on 1/15/2009 by Irish M1ck]

How do YOU know people are alive today BECAUSE of abortion?

Name someone who is alive because of an abortion and prove it is because of the abortion without speculation

Originally posted by arbiture
reply to post by Irish M1ck

 

Thanks for a cogent argument on a most difficult subject. As far as abortion is concerned, I have allways had problems with sancramonious men who can never get pregnant, telling women what they can do to their OWN BODIES!A fetus is a person? Prove it. A "fetus" is a prehuman biological construct. A soal? Well guys, speak the hell up! Lead, follow, or get your ass out of the way.

sancramonious ?


So then you're nothing but a "human biological construct" but how is one "pre-human"?

Is not the fetus living in the female killer whale not a "pre killer whale" fetus but simply a "Killer whale fetus" ?

Is it not true that a fetus living inside the female Gorilla distinguished even as early as its embryo by zoologists as a "Gorilla fetus" and not a "pre gorilla fetus" I assume you get the point so that it would be a human fetus which is what? The earliest stages in the life of a human species. It is a being it is human, it is a human being.

Mick a cogent argument?

heheh ok whatever

reply to post by Aermacchi


I did. I am. Had my mother not had an abortion, she would not have attended the University of North Carolina, she would not have met my father, and even if by some small chance they did meet, the odds of the same sperm making me is so small that it is barely existent.

She may have had other kids, but it wouldn't have been me or my sister. And while you may prefer that I not exist, I am sure there are many who share your views on life that wouldn't exist either.

reply to post by Irish M1ck


I take an agnostic view of religion. Maybe there is a God who thought the universe into existence but would be totally unaware of humans on this dust mote in infinite space. Then again, maybe not. So what if our motal life is all that there is? Isn't it a far more terrible crime to deprive a human being of his or her one opportunity at life? I think this is a far greater condemnation of abortion than if we say a sould is recycled or exists after the unborn child is killed.

reply to post by chrisbfla


Again, not trying to be a jerk here, but did you read the thread? That's not what this is about.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
reply to post by Aermacchi

 

I did. I am. Had my mother not had an abortion, she would not have attended the University of North Carolina, she would not have met my father, and even if by some small chance they did meet, the odds of the same sperm making me is so small that it is barely existent.

She may have had other kids, but it wouldn't have been me or my sister. And while you may prefer that I not exist, I am sure there are many who share your views on life that wouldn't exist either.

That story proves nothing Mick, HOW DO YOU KNOW what she would have done or not done? This is as much speculation as me saying had your mother not got that Abortion, that kid would have grown up to be the President or a Nobel Prize winner but she decided to kill it because it cramped her lifestyle or whatever the reason was, you simply can't know what she might have done or not done or how anything would have all worked out different. Seeing that you make being on ATS somewhat of a career, the trade off for your existence to be possible may have been her own biggest compromise.

It's a pointless argument

We can say the same thing about many aspects of our lives that would have made things turn out different. The fact that if your mom used an IUD or had they used a condom would have had another pointless outcome or maybe had she run out of gas that day she met your dad, I mean really what is your point?

Things happen the way they happen but I hope you aren't using things being what they are as a way or reason to justify abortion as anything other than what it is adding no altruistic aspect to it or anything other than what it truly is, a very sad and unfortunate choice that no one would wish on anyone



[edit on 16-1-2009 by Aermacchi]

reply to post by Aermacchi


Do you even understand how conception and genetics work? And I thought you said you don't do personal insults? Is it honestly that hard for you to argue intellectually, or are you just stupid?

If you want to take the argument down in the dirt like that, I can roll with it.

[edit on 1/15/2009 by Irish M1ck]

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
reply to post by Aermacchi

 

Do you even understand how conception and genetics work? And I thought you said you don't do personal insults? Is it honestly that hard for you to argue intellectually, or are you just stupid?

If you want to take the argument down in the dirt like that, I can roll with it.

[edit on 1/15/2009 by Irish M1ck]

I guess you'll have to settle with calling me stupid Mick because for the life of me I don't see what knowing all that much about genetics has to do with the questions and statements I made. It has more to do with you not proving your premise. BOTTOM LINE: You have NO idea what may or may not have happened but besides that WHAT DIFFERENCE WOULD IT MAKE? It is still a pointless argument. What are you really trying to say? Things would be altered if we didn't abort babies? SO WHAT? Things would be different if we didnt abort them also but what is the point?

Basically, what we have here is the old "what if" argument. Like what if your mom never got pregnant in the first place or what if this, what if that,

What if your aunt had balls she would be your uncle that's what if.

Roll with that smart guy





[edit on 16-1-2009 by Aermacchi]

reply to post by Irish M1ck


There is a line that says it all: all pro-choice have been born. That's it, for now.

reply to post by Aermacchi


...It has to do with genetics because for the same person to be born, everything has to be exactly the same. Think about how many sperm there are. Clearly the "conception" would have had to be on the exact same night...

I can't even comprehend how you would end up with the same kid. It just is not possible that you can follow the same path being pregnant for 9 months and having a kid and not.

In my case it is easy, she wouldn't have even met my father. How much more obvious can you get? But even if she did, the odds that everything would have been the same seems pretty far fetched.

You do realize that you are in the few who thinks that it would turn out the same, right? Quite frankly, it's not even logical.

Let me ask you this, if at 17, someone gave you a kid would you have made the same choices?

[edit on 1/16/2009 by Irish M1ck]

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
reply to post by Aermacchi

 

...It has to do with genetics because for the same person to be born, everything has to be exactly the same. Think about how many sperm there are. Clearly the "conception" would have had to be on the exact same night...

I can't even comprehend how you would end up with the same kid. It just is not possible that you can follow the same path being pregnant for 9 months and having a kid and not.

In my case it is easy, she wouldn't have even met my father. How much more obvious can you get? But even if she did, the odds that everything would have been the same seems pretty far fetched.

You do realize that you are in the few who thinks that it would turn out the same, right? Quite frankly, it's not even logical.


[edit on 1/16/2009 by Irish M1ck]

Let me ask you this, if at 17, someone gave you a kid would you have made the same choices?

I have NO idea, I suppose not but then again I can ONLY SPECULATE which is what this entire exercise is about

Besides being pointless

reply to post by Aermacchi


Well if it is pointless, you are welcome to vacate the thread. I'm sure you won't be missed too much.

But that's exactly the point, as you said, you probably (you wouldn't) have made the same choices. It's impossible. We are operate off of two things: nature and nurture. Change one of those things, and you'll make different choices.

You've now introduced and entire different scenario. I know for a fact my neither my sister nor I would exist if my mother had not resorted to abortion.

That's the entire point of the thread. That there are people who wouldn't exist if it wasn't for abortion.

You are clearly religious, correct? Do you not believe in fate? I can tie it into religion or science, it's not difficult.

*Edited to add:

Oh, and good job on making a post with no personal insults. You're well on your way to forming an mediocre argument.

[edit on 1/16/2009 by Irish M1ck]

Originally posted by Irish M1ck


You've now introduced and entire different scenario. I know for a fact my neither my sister nor I would exist if my mother had not resorted to abortion.

You know this how? Because you compared it to the life that happened in an alternative universe where your mother didn't have the abortion?

Sure we can try that and if we go there we have yet more alternative universes where any number of things could have happened including you being born in one of them.

That's the entire point of the thread. That there are people who wouldn't exist if it wasn't for abortion.

"Yeah So?"and what about it Mick?

There are people that wouldn't exist if we weren't horny on a certain day in the company of the opposite sex but like your postulate, it is neither here nor there so the question remains Mick,,

What is your POINT!





[edit on 16-1-2009 by Aermacchi]

reply to post by Aermacchi


Not sure if you noticed but this is a philosophy forum.

Originally posted by Aermacchi

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
reply to post by Razimus

 

You completely missed the point of the thread. Please work on your reading comprehension. Again, I am not sure you guys are understanding me so I will clarify again:

There are people who would not be alive today if it was not for abortion. That is a paradox.

[edit on 1/15/2009 by Irish M1ck]

How do YOU know people are alive today BECAUSE of abortion?

Name someone who is alive because of an abortion and prove it is because of the abortion without speculation

Not to say that I necessarily agree with M1ck's position, because I still think it's a rather weak platform of speculation and not truly representative of a paradox. However, your demand is rather easy to accommodate, and does not support the weight of any argument either.

While I do not have a documented case on-hand, and this is a subjective personal testimony, the circumstances behind it are not so rare as to warrant outright dismissal. See, I do have an acquaintance with a friend who's only alive today because of abortion. During her first pregnancy, his mother had been discovered early on to have developed cervical cancer, and it was spreading rapidly. She was given a choice. Abort the child and undergo surgery to remove the tumor, at the risk of possibly never having a child again - or wait till the baby comes to term and risk losing the baby and her entire uterus, as well as possibly even her life.

She made the choice to abort the fetus and undergo the surgery. The sacrifice of this child allowed for her cancer to be removed and saved the uterus - allowing for two more children to be born later. My friend and his older sister.

However, this isn't the only case where this could be the outcome, as I'm sure you have heard of situations play out in extreme fundamentalist religious communities where a woman will get pregnant out of wedlock and will chose to abort the baby in secret rather than face possible hymen reconstruction surgery (genital mutiliation) or an honor killing.

[edit on 16-1-2009 by Lasheic]

reply to post by Aermacchi


I'm one of these people too. If my mother had not aborted the child she was pregnant with when she was 15, she would not have been hanging out at a night club on a marine base where she met my father...she would have had a four-year-old child and have been married to someone else.

My father would have continued his engagement to a woman he was seeing on the base and even IF they had met each other somewhere else, they wouldn't have been able to create me and my brother EVEN if they went on to have two kids.

Originally posted by Lasheic

Not to say that I necessarily agree with M1ck's position, because I still think it's a rather weak platform of speculation and not truly representative of a paradox. However, your demand is rather easy to accommodate, and does not support the weight of any argument either.

Thats because I am not presenting an argument lash, I'm asking him a QUESTION.

While I do not have a documented case on-hand, and this is a subjective personal testimony, the circumstances behind it are not so rare as to warrant outright dismissal. See, I do have an acquaintance with a friend who's only alive today because of abortion. During her first pregnancy, his mother had been discovered early on to have developed cervical cancer, and it was spreading rapidly. She was given a choice. Abort the child and undergo surgery to remove the tumor, at the risk of possibly never having a child again - or wait till the baby comes to term and risk losing the baby and her entire uterus, as well as possibly even her life.

She made the choice to abort the fetus and undergo the surgery. The sacrifice of this child allowed for her cancer to be removed and saved the uterus - allowing for two more children to be born later. My friend and his older sister.

However, this isn't the only case where this could be the outcome, as I'm sure you have heard of situations play out in extreme fundamentalist religious communities where a woman will get pregnant out of wedlock and will chose to abort the baby in secret rather than face possible hymen reconstruction surgery (genital mutiliation) or an honor killing.

[edit on 16-1-2009 by Lasheic]

Again SO WHAT? Ill be brief,, if in the case a life was saved necessitated by abortion else the mother would have died.

Happens all the time but again SO WHAT.

At least you seen the issue of paradox where Mick thought this had to do with genetics but BOTH of you are missing my point and that is that this thread HAS NO POINT

All I keep seeing is the same obvious question coming up after each new try saying " yeah Duh" if you catch my drift

[edit on 16-1-2009 by Aermacchi]

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
reply to post by Aermacchi

 

I'm one of these people too. If my mother had not aborted the child she was pregnant with when she was 15, she would not have been hanging out at a night club on a marine base where she met my father...she would have had a four-year-old child and have been married to someone else.

My father would have continued his engagement to a woman he was seeing on the base and even IF they had met each other somewhere else, they wouldn't have been able to create me and my brother EVEN if they went on to have two kids.

Ok .. I'll bite. So what is YOUR point?

Abortion is cool because if it had not been for abortion YOU wouldn't be alive?? See now THAT would be an argument. Whether it is your point or not I have no idea but it IS an example of what one would be and the one I keep wondering is at the center of this thread.

[edit on 16-1-2009 by Aermacchi]

reply to post by Aermacchi

BOTH of you are missing my point and that is that this thread HAS NO POINT

The Seinfeildein Paradox. A paradox in which a point of a thread is argued in a thread about paradoxes that has no point.

Beyond the obligatory fluff, I already agreed with that analysis in my first post on the first page in this thread. I'm sort of beyond the point of caring if there is a point to the thread at this point.

Get the point?