The Abortion Paradox

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posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 01:08 AM
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I've heard many say that abortion is killing a baby, and therefore, a soul. The baby is a person from conception and must have a soul, so it is murder, etcetera, etcetera. However, I had one question I'd like to pose to you:

What about babies that would not have been born if abortion was not legal? What of women who have abortion, go on to finish college and meet the right guy, and then have children. I think we can all agree that if the woman had the kid, a sort of "Butterfly Effect" would have happened, and her life would have been completely different. I know women who have had abortions and they would not be where they are today if they hadn't.

Many say having an abortion is robbing a child of his/her life, but what about the kids who wouldn't exist if abortion wasn't legal? Isn't that robbing them of their lives?




posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 01:16 AM
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Some will still argue that adoption would have been the proper choice instead of the abortion.

I sort of follow that idea and would rather see more choices made to that option than the other. Even under circumstances of rape or unplanned pregnancies. It resolves the issue of taking any life at all. It offers life.


Cheers!!!!



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 01:25 AM
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reply to post by RFBurns
 


Adoption doesn't really solve the paradox either. The woman would probably still take a different path in life since things would be different. She'd have to carry the baby for 6 more months, and she wouldn't make the same choices during those times.

Again, you end up with a child that would have been born not being born.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 01:54 AM
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I've heard many say that abortion is killing a baby, and therefore, a soul.


If you accept the concept of soul, them killing babies is completely ok as long as no soul is occupying them, right?

That's not a trick question. Just think carefully how you choose to answer it.

If we believe that physical bodies are simply vessels that consciousness occupies on a limited basis, and that it is "soul" that really "is who we are," then destroying the physical body isn't such a big deal, right? The question becomes at what point does "soul" enter into the phsyical body? Or is consciousness a result of the phsyical form? I personally lean towards the idea that spirit preceeds form, rather thabn being created by it, but I suspect that neither you nor I are really in a position to know for sure how these things actually work. However...if we assume that there is a pool of "souls" out there somewhere looking for physical bodies to inhabit, I have to ask...what exactly is the point of sitting around in a fetus for nine months waiting to be born? Why would a soul coming here to experience life on earth choose to enter into a human fetus at conception? And, as a practical matter, if you're a conscious soul, wouldn't you take the time to examine the body you're going to inhabit? And if you do inhabit a fetus at conception it it gets aborted before birth...how terrible is that? You just go and find a new one. Shouldn't be that big of a deal.

But yes...we're discussing the implications of things that we don't really understand the workings of.

I would propose that whatever you decide to believe, at least make sure that it's consistent.



what about the kids who wouldn't exist if abortion wasn't legal?
Isn't that robbing them of their lives?


I've read this over a bunch of times, and I still don't understand what you're trying to say. The legality of abortion is irrelevant. I assume you mean if abortions were not performed. Ok. So...so you're asking if an abortion was not performed, then what about the child who wouldn't exist as a result? That doesn't work. If an abortion is not performed, then a child does come to exist as a result. How is not performing an abortion robbing anyone of their lives?

What are you trying to ask?



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 02:01 AM
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Abortion....ahhh, an age old debate.

I personally believe in learning the hard way - and having a baby when having a baby is not a good thing to do is a pretty damn hard lesson, but a lesson nonetheless.

Even going through with the abortion is a lesson of sorts, but a lesson that will leave you wondering "what if" for the rest of your life in most cases.

The fact is - your future is being reshaped all the time, and cannot be predicted or extrapolated with any sort of accuracy at all. No one knows what will happen and no one ever will.

So choosing to keep or abort a baby, it may seem obvious what the possible outcomes may be after such a choice, but the truth is that they are not at all.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 02:19 AM
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reply to post by LordBucket
 


I'll clarify it again (and I did mention religion and souls, but they are it works for morality also):

If she has the baby then that baby exists, and her life will go on from there. However, if she chooses abortion, then she will follow an entirely different path, and if she chooses to have children in the future, a new baby would be created.

The important distinction is that the second child is completely different from the first, and would not exist if she did have the original child. So while one child was not created, an entirely different child(s) was born.

Do you not know anyone whose mother had an abortion before she had them? Well, if she had not had the abortion, that person wouldn't exist.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 02:44 AM
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reply to post by Irish M1ck
 


What would the "butterfly effect" have been if the baby wasn't aborted? You are asking questions above any humans pay grade. Though finishing college and having a family under more favorable circumstances is admirable, who are we to say at what point life begins and what effect that life will have on the world. I think people who say you are destroying living souls with abortion are erring on the side of caution. We are human, we don't know @$!# about the universe, but if your instinct tells you something is wrong it's usually a good idea to listen.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 03:59 AM
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I, personally, do not believe in abortion as a course of action in dealing with an unexpected pregnancy. However, that is my decision and my decision alone - and I have no right to push that decision on others, including perhaps, a potential partner who is carrying that child.

Disclaimer aside, I'm not sure if what you're describing could accurately be considered a paradox. However I will say that noone can determine the future aside from following trends and extrapolating likely results. Psychics, prophecy, fortunetellers... none of these have proven a shred of credibility aside from hindsight interpretation after the supposed event. I posit this, though. What if the mother of a fetus decides to not have an abortion. The child grows, and in their teenage years dies due to an accident or suicide. An entire line of progeny is now extinguished. However, had the mother decided to abort the fetus and donate the remains to Stem Cell research, and a cure for some childhood disease were found from this donation. This cure, later, is used to assist a future child of the mother who aborted her original child. The new child now grows healthy in a well established home because her parent could attend collage rather than raising a kid. This new child goes on to bare many offspring and flourish.

However, there's far too many unknown, or inherently unknowable, variables which could drastically modify the outcome to consider when thinking this far ahead. It's not useful for anything aside from baseless speculation. Therefore, I don't feel it's any sort of a platform to argue or discuss from.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 04:13 AM
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reply to post by Irish M1ck
 


the kid who has unprotected sex is ruining their OWN life, your blaming the baby for ruining their life? geez...

abortion lovers never think of this...

The aborted babies grow up in the spirit world, their physical life was taken from them, they can have a spirit life but it's just not the same, they can't have a family there the same way, I've heard, this un-justice will be resolved when the 1,000 year reign of Christ comes, all aborted babies will be able to grow up physically un-aborted this time, there will be no abortion during the reign of Christ.

The number one thing we will be judged for will be how we raised our children, if we aborted them the judgement will not be so great, the rape victim will probably be less scrutinized, but still even in that extreme case, God does not want that baby aborted.

But I am pro choice when it comes to actions made on this plane, the choice is up to you.

[edit on 15-1-2009 by Razimus]



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 05:05 AM
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reply to post by Razimus
 




Sorry, I had to.

BTW: If you accept the Augustinian beliefs, then aborted babies are sent straight to hell since they haven't accepted baptism before their death. Oh yes... this works for miscarriages too. Unless you keep holy water in your toilet, your dead baby is burning in hellfire. On the upswing, you'll probably join them anyhow. So it's not like you'll never see them again.

[edit on 15-1-2009 by Lasheic]



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 05:36 AM
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If you had asked me ten years ago, I would have solidly been in the "Abortion is Murder" camp. I still don't think that abortion is the best choice in most cases (if for no other reason than the possible psychological damage to the mother), and I still abhor late term abortions. But I am not nearly as dogmatic about it as I used to be. What happened?

First of all, I began to see that some of the leaders of the Anti-Abortion movement were not acting in love. Let's just say that the attitudes they portrayed publicly often came across as mean-spirited.

Second, part of the reason I had been so strong against it in the first place was necause of the teachings of the fundamentalist churches I had attended. I began to get frustrated with some of the things I was seeing and prayed for God to show me the truth... guess what, it led me OUT of that church and organized religion. I really began to see how they were twisting the scriptures and stringing unrelated verses together, and sometimes outright lying to come up with their doctrines, most of which are designed to exert cnothrol over the flock. And at some point it dawned on me that if pastors would lie through their teeth when teaching about tithing (and they do - it was never intended that people should tithe to support a clergy class) then maybe some of their other doctrines were in place to bring money and power into the church. Suddenly I realized why children are considered such a blessing - if they are brought up in the church, when they get older it's like they will be among the flock that's paying good money to hear bad doctrine (if you think I'm being a bit harsh, remember that the only people that Jesus really condemned on a consistent basis were the religious leaders - what would make you think he'd be any more approving of today's clergy?).

So after I pulled out of fundamentalism and ultimately organized religion altogether, for the first time in my life I fell free of fear and free to read some things that we were not encouraged to read by the preachers. And one of those was the reports of people who've had near-death experiences (as found on a few sites devoted to that purpose). Some of these people seemed to come back with stories of what happens prior to birth and one common tale is that the spirit actually chooses its parents (to learn some particular spiritual lesson), but if things don't go well it's not actually locked into that body or those parents. So from that standpoint abortion is simply a change in plans (as is miscarriage, which may happen if the unborn spirit decides the time is not right). That same spirit may come back to the same parents later (apparently that can also happen if a child dies while very young) or may move on to a completely different life. In any case, on a spiritual level abortion (and death in general) is not the tragedy we make it out to be. However, and I again emphasize this, it can be very damaging to the psyche of the mother (whether or not she's had a "religious" upbringing), and also damaging to the doctors and nurses that participate. If even a small part of you believes you have killed a baby, that can be very damaging TO YOU, and also to those who participated in the abortion process, and to your parents and even extended family. So I am still generally against it, but the difference is now that I would not lay a guilt trip on women who have already had an abortion, because that just increases the damage already done (another reason I say the "Pro-Life" people can be quite mean-spirited at time, though not all are).



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 05:37 AM
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reply to post by Lasheic
 


What I stated is what I believe...not the retarded dogma you spouted.

Convenient how athiests use the worst possible doctrines as examples of why believers in God are so stupid...



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 06:15 AM
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reply to post by Razimus
 


lol, typical religious mindset. Obvious parody seen as personal attacks. lol persecution complex much? Oh, and blame the godless atheists, eh? Shame for you that I'm not an atheist. Try again.

[edit on 15-1-2009 by Lasheic]



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 08:47 AM
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reply to post by Razimus
 


You completely missed the point of the thread. Please work on your reading comprehension. Again, I am not sure you guys are understanding me so I will clarify again:

There are people who would not be alive today if it was not for abortion. That is a paradox.

[edit on 1/15/2009 by Irish M1ck]



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 09:25 AM
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I understood!
It's an interesting point.

My sister had an abortion and years later had a son. If she had continued with her first pregnancy and had a child, my sweet nephew may have never been born. She only wanted one child.

It's an interesting thing to think about.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 09:42 AM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


That is a good point BH.One has to wonder though,just how sweet and adorable that aborted child would have been.Or what potential impact that child would eventually have had on society.

I have known several women who had chosen abortion early in their lives.They had all had children later on.Each of them have suffered depression caused by the contemplation of who that aborted child would have been.
I am so thankful that I have never had to face such a heart rending dilema.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 11:31 AM
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Regarding the paradox, there's an assumption that if abortion is made illegal, all young girls/women who would do it legally would also do it illegally. This isn't the case.

Abortion appears to be a selfish act, sacrificing another's life for the sake of one's own prosperity. I've heard the 'mercy kill' argument before, but better to have a hard life with a chance at change or hope than being involuntarily removed from having life at all. As an ex-baby myself, I'm grateful that abortion was never in the mind of my mother. Perhaps we should interview someone who was aborted to get their thoughts.

[edit on 15-1-2009 by saint4God]



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 01:15 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


Sweet! Someone finally understands what I am talking about. I did not realize it was that difficult.

So, yeah, your nephew would not exist if she had the abortion. Sure, there may have been a different nephew had she not, but she did. So if there is a God, clearly this is the way things were supposed to work out.

You can't trump God (of course that's coming from an agnostic/atheist).

reply to post by daddyroo45
 


Exactly. So those kids would not exist had they not had the abortion. It is interesting to think about the kids that would have existed; however, even if she had the kid and gave it up for adoption, the kids you know still wouldn't exist. Things would be different and different paths would have been taken.

Kind of like that whole ying-yang thing. I don't think they have anything to regret.

reply to post by saint4God
 


Again, please just reread and understand what I am talking about. Sure, I get your point about asking the one who was aborted how he/she feels about it. I get it.

But say your mom had an abortion before she had you. If she hadn't gotten the abortion, you would be, in essence, the aborted one because you would cease to exist.

There are thousands of people who exist today simply because of abortion. If abortion was not legal, those people would not be here, and they would be replaced by others.

[edit on 1/15/2009 by Irish M1ck]



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 01:43 PM
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reply to post by Irish M1ck
 


Fantastic observation! Star for you! I can't tell you how much I agree. My mother had an abortion when she was very young, 15, and had me ten years later. Had she kept the first baby, my brother and I wouldn't be alive right now because she wouldn't have been at the night club on the marine base when she met my father. She'd have had a four year old child at the time instead. In this case: in exchange for one life, two were gained.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 01:57 PM
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There are some multiple universe theories out there that suggest that somewhere in the infinite depths of space and time, everything eventually happens. Every possible outcome eventually happens. Every coin flip. Every change of subatomic state within every atom. So in some of the universes, there's an abortion, and the consequences domino off from that, and in other universes there isn't and abortion, and space and time take a different path. So it's not really even a matter of either/or. All of this stuff happens, will happen, or has already happened.

I personally don't think the Universe works that way, because I'm only aware of one existence, one Universe, happening at a time. I only seem to have one point of view.

Anyway, for a religious person, I suppose it all depends on how much credit they are willing to give their God. How much power they are willing to recognize it as having. Is God only limited to one universe? Or does the entity have everything covered? If you really want God to be omniscient and omnipresent and infinite, then it might be necessary to accept that one woman's decision either to have or not to have a baby is moot. Because it's played out in all permutations in countless other universes, anyway.

But some people believe they know their entity's will.





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